An Appeal to Christians on Homosexuality

Everyone has free will and the OP is entiteld to his opinion.

I have but one request that I make to the OP:

If you want to call yourself a 'christian' at least have the decency to replace the claim with the following:

"I am an unbiblical christian".



GE 2:18 The LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him."


GE 2:22 "Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man."

GE 2:23 The man said,
"This is now bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called `woman,'
for she was taken out of man."

GE 2:24 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.
GE 2:25 The man and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame.



The above verses contain God's inetention for marriage and below are some verses describing the impurity of unnatural relations.


RO 1:24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen.

RO 1:26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.



We were warned about people turning away from sound doctrine 2000 years ago.


2TI 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.

reply to post by XplanetX


XplanetX just sumed this whole matter up pretty nicly. There really is no more room for debate.
____________________

reply to post by XplanetX

i've said multiple times that i believe homosexuality to be wrong, but as nothing that happens here on earth can change where a person ends up in the next life, why deny homosexuals the ability to marry?

one man and one woman is the first marriage, but then what about all the polygamy that takes place? solomon, david, jacob, gideon, abraham, etc. most of those mentioned (actually all but jacob i believe) had concubines also. so we have this model of marriage laid out in genesis 2 that obviously doesn't cover everything.

when do you think god considers two people married? i'd have to say mutual love, devotion, and then sex. it has nothing to do with a ceremony or certificate. a marriage certificate from the state doesn't represent biblical marriage.

you say "marriage is sacred between a man and a woman" and i would agree, but "marriage" in that sentence according to how you think is merely a certificate from the government.

"no more room for debate"?

"the earth is firmly fixed; it shall not be moved" psalm 104:5 that verse led the church to declare the same to galileo.

the literal interpretation of this verse is obviously incorrect, something the church and many christian's denied for a very long time. will you not consider that you make the same mistake right now?

My original response covers more than this threads topic, so i will post it as a new thread linking to this one

Link to thread made in response.

Originally posted by Bob Sholtz


"the earth is firmly fixed; it shall not be moved" psalm 104:5 that verse led the church to declare the same to galileo.

I have not seen the earth fall out of the universe yet, so I guess that must be right.

Originally posted by Bob Sholtz
reply to post by XplanetX

 

i've said multiple times that i believe homosexuality to be wrong, but as nothing that happens here on earth can change where a person ends up in the next life, why deny homosexuals the ability to marry?

one man and one woman is the first marriage, but then what about all the polygamy that takes place? solomon, david, jacob, gideon, abraham, etc. most of those mentioned (actually all but jacob i believe) had concubines also. so we have this model of marriage laid out in genesis 2 that obviously doesn't cover everything.

when do you think god considers two people married? i'd have to say mutual love, devotion, and then sex. it has nothing to do with a ceremony or certificate. a marriage certificate from the state doesn't represent biblical marriage.

you say "marriage is sacred between a man and a woman" and i would agree, but "marriage" in that sentence according to how you think is merely a certificate from the government.

"no more room for debate"?

"the earth is firmly fixed; it shall not be moved" psalm 104:5 that verse led the church to declare the same to galileo.

the literal interpretation of this verse is obviously incorrect, something the church and many christian's denied for a very long time. will you not consider that you make the same mistake right now?

edit on 17-9-2011 by Bob Sholtz because: (no reason given)

You have misinterpreted Psalm 104:5, it is not referring to the orbit of the earth.
www.kjvbiblebelievers.com...


Denying homosexuals the ability to marry prevents society as a whole from going down a very slippery slope. Need I mention Sodom and Gomorah?

Your view on homosexuality is one of promotion rather than heartbreak at what these people do with themselves and others and how God grieves over their decisions. I have no problem with allowing people free will and choice, in fact the verses that I quoted from the bible explain that God hands them over to their desires.

You on the other hand are pandering to their desires and in doing so, you are promoting their sin. You are on very shaky ground and I would urge you to study this matter in more depth.

Ask yourself, what would Jesus do? Would he urge christians to be accepting of homosexuality? When did Jesus teach us to be accepting of any sin? We are to be forgiving and not judge others but God's word is the standard, we are not the standard.

Denying homosexuals the ability to marry prevents society as a whole from going down a very slippery slope.

not really, because of predestination. nothing that happens here will change where someone ends up. you, nor anyone, nor their actions can change another person's salvation. also, we're talking about same sex marriage, not the sexual act itself. homosexuality will exist no matter what, and preventing a same sex couple from marrying won't decrease that. nor will allowing them to marry increase the prevalence of homosexuality.

We are to be forgiving and not judge others

but then you're going to prevent them from getting married in the eyes of the state.

Originally posted by Bob Sholtz

Denying homosexuals the ability to marry prevents society as a whole from going down a very slippery slope.

not really, because of predestination. nothing that happens here will change where someone ends up. you, nor anyone, nor their actions can change another person's salvation. also, we're talking about same sex marriage, not the sexual act itself. homosexuality will exist no matter what, and preventing a same sex couple from marrying won't decrease that. nor will allowing them to marry increase the prevalence of homosexuality.

We are to be forgiving and not judge others

but then you're going to prevent them from getting married in the eyes of the state.

edit on 17-9-2011 by Bob Sholtz because: (no reason given)

Firstly, I don't vote for this very reason.

My allegiance is to God and no other. Sure, predestination is true as God can see the future and therefore know the outcome. But how does this excuse you for being soft on sin and pandering to homosexuals? Predestination does not give us an excuse to be apathetic nor does it discredit the work done by Jesus through us.

If you want to remain in the true vine then you really need to reassess your view on christianity.


REV 3:15 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! So, because you are lukewarm--neither hot nor cold--I am about to spit you out of my mouth. You say, `I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.

Originally posted by Bob Sholtz


i know some people don't believe in predestination

That is part of Reform Theology

according to predestination, every person will either end up in heaven or hell, and nothing you or any other human does can change where you end up. for example, there have been murderers and child molesters who found god, and we will see them in heaven, but there are also outstanding christians who have lost/will lose their way.

But what if Reform Theology is wrong? Then people are not predestined. I think when you throw out the predestination discussion, you are assuming it is correct. So those of us who do not believe in it, you are assuming we are wrong. You seem to have approached this from the Reform Theology viewpoint by telling us that others do not agree with it. If we believe we are right, then how are you going to convince us your first argument? You have to convince us of predestination, which some of us do not and will not agree with.

reply to post by WarminIndy


predestination is the natural outcome when a being has infinite power and knowledge. god knows everything, and has the power to change everything, therefore, the outcome is based solely on what he wants.

btw, it was not me misinterpreting that psalm, but the church, who used it as "evidence" against galileo's heliocentric model.

reply to post by XplanetX

But how does this excuse you for being soft on sin and pandering to homosexuals?

how is allowing gay marriage being soft/pandering to homosexuals? it changes nothing, and they have god-given free will to make choices how they see fit.

the "marriage" you are denying them isn't even from god, its from the government. two people are married in god's eyes when they fall in love, commit to each other, and have sex, not when they get a government issued certificate.

Originally posted by Bob Sholtz
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

predestination is the natural outcome when a being has infinite power and knowledge. god knows everything, and has the power to change everything, therefore, the outcome is based solely on what he wants.

btw, it was not me misinterpreting that psalm, but the church, who used it as "evidence" against galileo's
heliocentric model.

Certainly God is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. But predestination is still part of Reform Theology.

But what if predestination is wrong?

reply to post by WarminIndy


that's like my saying "1+2=3" then you come along and go "but what if it doesn't equal three".

if you have a logical argument as to how being all knowing and all powerful doesn't make you in control/responsible for the outcome, i'd like to hear it.

Originally posted by Bob Sholtz
reply to post by XplanetX

 

But how does this excuse you for being soft on sin and pandering to homosexuals?

how is allowing gay marriage being soft/pandering to homosexuals? it changes nothing, and they have god-given free will to make choices how they see fit.

the "marriage" you are denying them isn't even from god, its from the government. two people are married in god's eyes when they fall in love, commit to each other, and have sex, not when they get a government issued certificate.

Sigh...

Don't take just one sentence from my paragraph and then twist it out of context.

I don't vote because I do not condone the laws of our government.

Remember Daniel praying to God when it was against the law handed down by Nebuchadnezzar? Daniel loved God and God's laws more than the laws of man even to the point of death and God saved him. Do not condone what an ungodly government decree's as law if it is against God's will. Yes they have the freedom to do these things and if you were not a christian I could understand your viewpoint. But you claim to be a christian.

You are trying to be diplomatic on an issue about which God himself is not diplomatic.

Originally posted by Bob Sholtz
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

that's like my saying "1+2=3" then you come along and go "but what if it doesn't equal three".

if you have a logical argument as to how being all knowing and all powerful doesn't make you in control/responsible for the outcome, i'd like to hear it.

Again, predestination is part of Reform Theology and that does not necessarily make it ground in absolutes. By saying predestination is an absolute, then there are many of us who can say that it is merely a doctrine within a theology. Are you saying predestination is an absolute? I would not like to hear the responses from those who are against it because that is another can of worms to discuss.

I believe that predestination is not based on TULIP. I believe we were all predestined, but many chose to not want to believe or want to follow God, so therefore, God removed them from their destined place. God does not force people to believe in Him, but the same Bible states what happens to those who reject God. Rejection or acceptance is a choice we are given, and if we are given that choice, the Giver does not force us or take those who reject Him.

God is absolute, predestination is not.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sins shall die.

That is an absolute.

reply to post by XplanetX


i just don't understand your position. there is no logical or moral reason to deny them marriage, and even the "marriage" you tout as decreed from god is just a certificate issued by the government.

what god considers as marriage, and a marriage certificate are two different things.

if god defines marriage as only between one man, and one woman, and you care about what god says more than the government, then i don't see how our positions conflict. in the eyes of god, they aren't married, and if that's what matters most to you, then why are you objecting?

Originally posted by Bob Sholtz
reply to post by XplanetX

 

i just don't understand your position. there is no logical or moral reason to deny them marriage, and even the "marriage" you tout as decreed from god is just a certificate issued by the government.

what god considers as marriage, and a marriage certificate are two different things.

if god defines marriage as only between one man, and one woman, and you care about what god says more than the government, then i don't see how our positions conflict. in the eyes of god, they aren't married, and if that's what matters most to you, then why are you objecting?

I seem to recall that Lot called his neighbors his brethren. What if Lot chose to stay?

reply to post by WarminIndy


and how many people in those cities were married? probably very few, as everyone was having relations with everyone else. marriage changes nothing. besides, atleast homosexuals who marry will keep it between eachother, unlike those two cities.

Originally posted by Bob Sholtz
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

and how many people in those cities were married? probably very few, as everyone was having relations with everyone else. marriage changes nothing. besides, atleast homosexuals who marry will keep it between eachother, unlike those two cities.

The point is that it is a slippery slope. If you promote homosexuality through the state government as a right for others then you are condoning the behaviour. You cannot call yourself a christian and be diplomatic about this issue.

Sodom and Gomorah is the final destination of a society that chooses to go down this path.

reply to post by XplanetX


If that is what you think the natural proclivity of everyone is, if gay marriage was endorsed, then that's um, pretty amuzing!