An Appeal to Christians on Homosexuality

reply to post by TheThirdAdam


Let me see if I can help you out here. What you want is a civil union. No problems there, that's a function of government and I'd support you having that. What you cannot have, under no circumstances, is Holy Matrimony. You don't meet the criteria for entering into it per the Biblical standards. Nothing personal, but you can't have something you're not qualified for no matter how badly you want it.

reply to post by Paladin1dcs


okay, first off, i'm not gay. i'm married with two children, so it has nothing to do with what i want. but if you say that a civil union is fine by you, why not support legalized gay marriage? if you don't care if the state recognizes their union for legal purposes, why not let it do so. i mean. if it turns out that gays are going to hell, whats gonna happen if the state says they have a contract? is the state going make god let them into heaven? seriously, what goes on behind closed doors is not for any of us to judge, and honestly i don't care to. if it is wrong then god will deal with it.

but just as you don't want the state to tell you how to worship, the christians have no right to impose their beliefs on others via state law. if state law says that two people can enter into a civil union, then i cannot descriminate based on gender or riligeous beliefs. if you don't like being gay, then don't be gay. but don't be a jerk and assume that your way of thinking is so superior and infallible that it gives you the right to dictate how others live.

reply to [url= by Paladin1dcs[/url]


Marriage was marriage long LONG before the desert folk decided to write a book. Long before homosexuality was demonized by ignorant goat herders.

And in 2011 we have ignorant, bigoted folk like yourself telling homosexuals what they can and cannot do......

Such small minded Prejudice will not be tolerated for much longer, you people will have to simply GROW UP

reply to post by TheThirdAdam


Because legalized gay marriage is not the same thing as a civil union. Let me ask you this, by what right does the government meddle in the affairs of a religion? If you want gays to have the rights that you claim, then push for civil unions. If you continue to push for gay marriage, you prove your real goal is something other than civil unions.

Originally posted by Prezbo369
reply to [url= by Paladin1dcs[/url]

 

Marriage was marriage long LONG before the desert folk decided to write a book. Long before homosexuality was demonized by ignorant goat herders.

And in 2011 we have ignorant, bigoted folk like yourself telling homosexuals what they can and cannot do......

Such small minded Prejudice will not be tolerated for much longer, you people will have to simply GROW UP

Hmm, let me see if I can translate this from childish liberal to something I can actually understand.

You start off by making an assertion on a topic that you can't back up, then progress into insults and misinformation. Then we proceed into more insults, personal insults and more misinformation coupled with a serious lack of reading comprehension. Finally, we devolve to into a verbal immature foot-stomp because someone dares to disagree with your ignorant, bigoted, prejudiced, immature OPINION. I think I finally see the problem here, you're not mature enough to actually read the rest of the thread and comprehend complex subject matter. Don't give up hope though, you're almost completely assured that our government will take care of you, like it does all those who can't hack it in real life.

Seriously, all snarkiness aside, go back and actually read what I wrote. I'm fine with homosexuals getting civil unions, but they don't have a right to marriage. They don't meet the criteria.

fine civil unions then... whatever you want to call it, why vote against something that you say has to be recognized by god? a marriage certificate doesn't mean anything to god but it does hold a lot of legal weight. i just would like to understand why so many are so passionatly against something that has nothing to do with them or their relationship with god. if "adam and steve" can share household benefits through civil union, how exactly does that hurt or even effect you?

and what is it that you mean when you say that i must be pushing for something else? i would really like to hear this one...

reply to post by TheThirdAdam


What I was referring too by saying that "if you disagree with civil unions, then you're obviously after a different goal" is that most Churches are under assault by militant homosexuals to include them within our numbers. The gay marriage debate is actually being used as a vehicle to carry out further attacks in this area by certain homosexual activists, hence the remark.

My ideal compromise, which I outlined earlier, would be for Marriage to be strictly a religious ceremony which is only administered by the Church, while civil unions for homosexuals and heterosexuals alike are a government function which would cover the legality issues such as next-of-kin and tax decisions.

If someone didn't want a civil union but wanted to be married, the Church could carry out the ceremony but the couple wouldn't have the benefits offered by a civil union.

Likewise, if a couple wanted cohabitation with the perks of a civil union but didn't want a religious ceremony or didn't qualify for one, there wouldn't be a problem either.

Either way, the government has no right to be dictating to the Church what they should or should not be teaching. That's a serious 1st Amendment violation.

okay, now we are getting somewhere. let me make sure that we are on the same page, you do agree that a civil union between same sex partners is fine, LEGALLY. but you are saying that marriage for them in a church is not? okay, i can live with that. sure there may be some hurt feelings but that is theyre right as a group to say what can and cannot go on inside their church. i would get kicked out of some churches for showing up in shorts, but thats there place to set whatever rules they want.

i hate to see any riligeous group attacked, but i dont think that is what the issue is here. those benefits that you said are fine under civil union are what the marriage certificate is for. so maybe the name should be changed? i think that is something that we can all agree on.

incidentally, should hetero marriages in islamic, buddist, hindu, or athiest couples not be recognized either since they do not take thier vows before your god?

reply to post by TheThirdAdam


I think we're on the same page here, just a little difficulty as it seemed we were talking past each other. No biggie.

As for what would or would not be recognized as a marriage, I'd have to say that each marriage would be recognized per the Church, Synagogue, Mosque or whatever that it originated from. I would expect Christian Churches to recognize each others' marriage ceremonies, as well as those of the Jews. I don't know how Islamic marriages would be handled, as I don't know about their customs in this regard, but I'd say in general that if a custom was fairly close to what another religion practiced, it would more than likely be recognized.

All that being said though, none of that would matter from a secular government point of view. The only thing that should matter to the government would be if the couple were part of a civil union or not. Anything beyond that is not the government's concern.

reply to post by Paladin1dcs


lol, this is what i love about this website, the fact that we can come together and debate topics as reasonable people, even if it takes a moment or two to reach a conclusion. on a personal note, i would like to thank you for being a reasonable human being in a world where reason is becoming a rare comodity. nothing further to debate here, i suppose...

thank you for the stimulating conversation
-A

reply to post by TheThirdAdam


I agree, sensibility and basic manners are becoming a thing of a bygone era. Thanks for the stimulating debate!

I'm not homophobic or anything, but I just believe a man and a women on a deserted island is life, yet two gay people on a deserted island can only lead to death.

It's not a way of life, its a lifestyle.

But each to their own.

Free will = every possible avenue in life explored.

reply to post by Bob Sholtz

in this thread i will attempt to convince christians that same sex marriage shouldn't be illegal, regardless of your feelings on the morality of the action. i myself am a christian.

No, you are most certainly not a Christian.

I just judged you according to the Holy Bible, and you have been found wanting. Repent and turn from your false beliefs.

Homosexuality is a Sin as found in the Holy Bible in multiple verses.

Originally posted by KJV1611
reply to post by Bob Sholtz

 

in this thread i will attempt to convince christians that same sex marriage shouldn't be illegal, regardless of your feelings on the morality of the action. i myself am a christian.

No, you are most certainly not a Christian.

I just judged you according to the Holy Bible, and you have been found wanting. Repent and turn from your false beliefs.

Homosexuality is a Sin as found in the Holy Bible in multiple verses.

Judge not, lest ye be judged...

Did you mean to say, "I do not interpret the bible the same way that you do?"

careful not to soil the name christian of which you are not the authority on

Originally posted by Paladin1dcs

Originally posted by Prezbo369
reply to [url= by Paladin1dcs[/url]

 

Marriage was marriage long LONG before the desert folk decided to write a book. Long before homosexuality was demonized by ignorant goat herders.

And in 2011 we have ignorant, bigoted folk like yourself telling homosexuals what they can and cannot do......

Such small minded Prejudice will not be tolerated for much longer, you people will have to simply GROW UP

Hmm, let me see if I can translate this from childish liberal to something I can actually understand.

You start off by making an assertion on a topic that you can't back up, then progress into insults and misinformation. Then we proceed into more insults, personal insults and more misinformation coupled with a serious lack of reading comprehension. Finally, we devolve to into a verbal immature foot-stomp because someone dares to disagree with your ignorant, bigoted, prejudiced, immature OPINION. I think I finally see the problem here, you're not mature enough to actually read the rest of the thread and comprehend complex subject matter. Don't give up hope though, you're almost completely assured that our government will take care of you, like it does all those who can't hack it in real life.

Seriously, all snarkiness aside, go back and actually read what I wrote. I'm fine with homosexuals getting civil unions, but they don't have a right to marriage. They don't meet the criteria.

A conservative Christian being snarky, hypocritical and obnoxious? never!

If you truly think that there wasn't such a thing as marriage before your bible was written, or the abrahamic religions were invented, them I must recommend you go read a book, no not THAT book

Marriage has nothing to do with bearded, threatening sky daddies, regardless of your own or your holy scribbles criteria

You saying homosexuals have no right to get married makes you a bigot and a small minded cretin (yes they were insults and yes they were meant for you), and if your god held the same opinions you do, he is also a bigoted small minded cretin.

Gays are gay, it's their nature, who they are, it's not a choice, and thus they are surely inluded and embraced by God as part of his eternal family. Therefore, if they love one another and are acting as responsible adults, they should be allowed to marry, with the blessing of the church.

reply to post by TheThirdAdam


Sigh, more ignorant :judge not" wanna be's...

1 CORINTHIANS 5:12
"For what have I to do to JUDGE them also that are without? do not ye JUDGE them that are within?"

Why yes I do! Once again, the OP is not a Bible Christian.

1 CORINTHIANS 10:14-15
14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.
15 I speak as to wise men; JUDGE ye what I say.

We are to JUDGE each other.....especially what we say....like the OP..duh?

Want more? There are even suppose to be set judges in the CHURCH for said "christians" as the OP is:

1 CORINTHIANS 6:2-5
2 Do ye not know that the saints shall JUDGE the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to JUDGE the smallest matters?
3 Know ye not that we shall JUDGE angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to JUDGE who are least esteemed in the church. (bingo...)
5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to JUDGE between his brethren? (yep)

1 CORINTHIANS 11:31
"For if we would JUDGE ourselves, we should not be judged."

I could go on, but you get the point. You don't know your Bible. Read it. KJV of course

reply to post by KJV1611


you judge me just as the church judged galileo. you don't know my heart, nor my soul. the two requirements to be saved are believing that jesus died for your sins, and a public profession of faith. i meet both. remove the log in your own eye before you remove the splinter in your brother's.

i'll admit, i didn't think of genesis 21-25 as defining marriage, but some good points have been made. touche i suppose.(although, what would you say of the polygamy in the bible? david had 6 wives and multiple concubines, doesn't that contradict the "one man, one woman" definition?) i still hold with my earlier conviction though, making same sex marriage illegal has no positive effect, but why keep two people in love from marrying?

maybe we should discuss the point when god views two people as married.

i will be back to join in on this discussion sometime soon, but there has been a very sad happening in my immediate family and i'm struggling to deal with it.

reply to post by Bob Sholtz


Bob, thank you for your input. I am very sorry to hear of your families misfortune. My thoughts and prayers for you and yours.

Isn't this the same God who said man's suitable help-meet was a woman? Why would God not just create for Adam another man? If you say God is omniscient, then how did He not figure this one out?

And the ancient polytheistic Greeks did not worship God, but their idea of Him. I think even the Apostle Paul says that to them on Mars Hill when he was walking past their statues of gods and came across one dedicated to the unknown god, to which Paul said "You men of Athens, I perceive in all things that you are too superstitious. For as I was passing by your devotions I came across an inscription "To the unknown god" to whom you ignorantly worship, I will now explain Him to you..."

If man was a suitable helpmeet for another man, then I think God would have been wise and omniscient enough to make another man for him. And if woman was a suitable helpmeet for another woman, then God should have thought of that as well.

If you say that was the first marriage that was instituted, then it is plain to see that God intended for men and women to be suitable for each other in marriage.