An Appeal to Christians on Homosexuality

in this thread i will attempt to convince christians that same sex marriage shouldn't be illegal, regardless of your feelings on the morality of the action. i myself am a christian.

i know some people don't believe in predestination, but in this thread i'm accepting it as true, being a natural and inescapable by-product of possessing unlimited power and knowing everything. i'm also assuming that humans have free will.

god gave humans free will because he wanted creatures that CHOSE to worship him, not mindless slaves. every human has the god-given right to choose their own path in life, provided it doesn't negatively effect another unwilling person. this is the foundation of ethics and morals. it's the one common denominator for morality.

according to predestination, every person will either end up in heaven or hell, and nothing you or any other human does can change where you end up. for example, there have been murderers and child molesters who found god, and we will see them in heaven, but there are also outstanding christians who have lost/will lose their way.

**********************************************************************************************************************************
quick side note. some will suggest that predestination is incompatible with free will. it doesn't have to be. simply put, you would have always chosen to do exactly what you will have done. you have the ability to choose, but you always would have chosen the same thing in the same situation. it is a different topic for a different thread.
**********************************************************************************************************************************

so, we have a god-given right to choose as we wish, and nothing you say or do can save or damn another human being.

why then should homosexuals be prevented from marrying? you may still think it is wrong (as i do) because "god says so", but as i've already established, god gave everyone the right to choose, and making it illegal can't save anyone. i've also shown how it isn't morally wrong because it only effects the consenting participants.

you may say "marriage is defined as between a man and a woman". could you show me where god says that in the bible? "well no, but it's been like that forever." really? because the ancient greeks believed that relations between two men was more pure than between a man and a woman.

making same-sex marriage illegal is telling god that you know better than him. in effect, you would be supporting the prevention of the god-given right to choose and suffer the consequences. some will disagree and say "no, i'm supporting what is right." but morals are based on causing unwanted harm to another.

what is the difference between being given money, and stealing it? in the first scenario, the person giving you money willfully "harms" themselves by parting with something valuable, in the second, you harm them without their consent.

there is no reason to deny two loving partners the ability to marry. marriage isn't even defined in the bible. god calls it "sacred", but do you really believe you need legal papers from the state before god recognizes the union? do you think you need a ceremony and vows? neither of those are listed as prerequisites in the bible.

consider this in your mind and heart.

Originally posted by Bob Sholtz
in this thread i will attempt to convince christians that same sex marriage shouldn't be illegal, regardless of your feelings on the morality of the action. i myself am a christian.

i know some people don't believe in predestination, but in this thread i'm accepting it as true, being a natural and inescapable by-product of possessing unlimited power and knowing everything. i'm also assuming that humans have free will.

god gave humans free will because he wanted creatures that CHOSE to worship him, not mindless slaves. every human has the god-given right to choose their own path in life, provided it doesn't negatively effect another unwilling person. this is the foundation of ethics and morals. it's the one common denominator for morality.

according to predestination, every person will either end up in heaven or hell, and nothing you or any other human does can change where you end up. for example, there have been murderers and child molesters who found god, and we will see them in heaven, but there are also outstanding christians who have lost/will lose their way.

**********************************************************************************************************************************
quick side note. some will suggest that predestination is incompatible with free will. it doesn't have to be. simply put, you would have always chosen to do exactly what you will have done. you have the ability to choose, but you always would have chosen the same thing in the same situation. it is a different topic for a different thread.
**********************************************************************************************************************************

so, we have a god-given right to choose as we wish, and nothing you say or do can save or damn another human being.

why then should homosexuals be prevented from marrying? you may still think it is wrong (as i do) because "god says so", but as i've already established, god gave everyone the right to choose, and making it illegal can't save anyone. i've also shown how it isn't morally wrong because it only effects the consenting participants.

you may say "marriage is defined as between a man and a woman". could you show me where god says that in the bible? "well no, but it's been like that forever." really? because the ancient greeks believed that relations between two men was more pure than between a man and a woman.

making same-sex marriage illegal is telling god that you know better than him. in effect, you would be supporting the prevention of the god-given right to choose and suffer the consequences. some will disagree and say "no, i'm supporting what is right." but morals are based on causing unwanted harm to another.

what is the difference between being given money, and stealing it? in the first scenario, the person giving you money willfully "harms" themselves by parting with something valuable, in the second, you harm them without their consent.

there is no reason to deny two loving partners the ability to marry. marriage isn't even defined in the bible. god calls it "sacred", but do you really believe you need legal papers from the state before god recognizes the union? do you think you need a ceremony and vows? neither of those are listed as prerequisites in the bible.

consider this in your mind and heart.

sounds like someone claiming to be christian thinking the sell of non-christian views will go easier if buttered in creative viewpoints and under the guise of delivering the message as a christian.

The whole point of marriage is for a man and woman who are religious and wish to put their relationship in the hands of god.This has nothing to do with freewill.

I'm a christian too, but I have no problem with homosexuality, and I don't believe it is a sin regardless of what the bible says. The bible was written by humans and has been manipulated for their own views and propaganda purposes, such as the demonisation of women.

If we look at the verse supposedly spoken by God, it only mentions men not women sleeping together, so why would that be.

a) God doesn't deem women relevant
b) God is aroused by women (just a joke one but still relevant for completion)
c) God forgot about women

d) a human being added the verse
e) a human being removed a verse


The first 3 options humanize God, the last 2 options humanize the bible - which are you more inclined to believe?

reply to post by Turkenstein


you must have misunderstood. i think homosexuality is wrong because it says so in the bible, but i also think god gives everyone the right to choose (that was the whole point of creating us), and who are you to deny a person their -literally- god-given right?

if i am wrong, show me how. i'm open to discussion.

There is no way that the generally accepted interpretation of the Christian scriptures endorses homosexual marriage. There are interpretations such as yours that do. However, you can not change established dogma by reasoning. The bible is explicit in it's definition of marriage.

The problem is what we as Christians choose to do with this belief. We can either act in love as Jesus commanded or we can be bigots. I think that the church has the right to condemn a biblical interpretation of marriage for homosexuals. Does this mean that we have a right to ban marriage in a purely secular sense? I think the answer to that is no we do not have that right. We can lobby our politicians based on our belief just as anyone can but we cannot enforce our will on the citizens of this country. Jesus never forced his will on people. Why should we? He did however demand everything from the people who chose to follow him.

I think this is the answer to the problem. The government can allow or disallow gay marriage based on popular vote. Churches can not recognize it religiously in keeping with their faith. Everyone wins.

reply to post by Viking9019


the bible doesn't say any real specifics about marriage. there are examples, but it's more a human construction. the bible doesn't define what constitutes marriage.

reply to post by micmerci


did i not make it clear that i believe homosexuality is wrong? i said that there are no grounds for making same sex marriage illegal. you can't save or damn anyone, and it doesn't effect anyone but the two people involved.

like i said, i'm open to discussion as to how you justify making it illegal.

a] Yes, I advocate gay marriage myself; although I'm no longer a Christian as such.

b] With that said, homosexuality is completely indefensible, from the perspective of Biblical theology. Homosexuality is prohibited in directives found in both the Old and New Testaments, and the terms used are quite clear.

So any Christians who choose to advocate gay marriage are going to unavoidably be violating the directives of their own theology.

reply to post by petrus4


i don't advocate it as right, but i say it shouldn't be illegal. there are no biblical OR ethical reasons for it, and i'm wondering how others justify campaigning to make it illegal.

Let 'em get married for cryin' out loud! They'll just end up divorced like everyone else!

Even if it is wrong (I don't believe it is. Not by a long shot) they go to hell, you go to heaven all is well for you christian fellas.

It just doesn't seem like it's worth the effort to get worked up about. If what you believe in turns out to be true, then no skin off your nose, right?

I used to be a christian, and the one thing I took from it is "treat others how you would like to be treated".

It'd be great if this one sentence was in everyones mind.

And respect to you OP. You made this thread to say it should be fine for gay people to get married even if you don't agree with it. That's what christianity teaches right? Tolerance, forgiveness?

reply to post by Bob Sholtz


Did I not make it clear that I too believe that the church has no claim to the legality of gay marriage only the morality thereof?

reply to post by Bob Sholtz


Let me help you out here, as you don't seem to be very well read for a Christian. The basis for Marriage being between a man and a woman comes from Genesis 2.

[23] And Adam said, This [is] now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. [24] Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. - Gen 2:23-24 KJV

I can go on with other examples of what God laid out as being a proper marriage (can't marry kin, etc) but this establishes the groundwork.

Now, I have no problems with homosexuals being allowed to enter into civil unions. I find their lifestyle repugnant, but that's on them so I'm not really worried about it too much. If they want to live together and have the rights of those of us who are married, such as tax breaks and medical next of kin rights, that's fine. That's what a civil union is for, but they have no claim what so ever to Holy Matrimony. That is an institution that was ordained by God Himself and we all know what God thinks of the homosexual lifestyle. Those who don't know, see Sodom and Gomorrah for details.

Originally posted by micmerci
There is no way that the generally accepted interpretation of the Christian scriptures endorses homosexual marriage. There are interpretations such as yours that do. However, you can not change established dogma by reasoning. The bible is explicit in it's definition of marriage.

The problem is what we as Christians choose to do with this belief. We can either act in love as Jesus commanded or we can be bigots. I think that the church has the right to condemn a biblical interpretation of marriage for homosexuals. Does this mean that we have a right to ban marriage in a purely secular sense? I think the answer to that is no we do not have that right. We can lobby our politicians based on our belief just as anyone can but we cannot enforce our will on the citizens of this country. Jesus never forced his will on people. Why should we? He did however demand everything from the people who chose to follow him.

I think this is the answer to the problem. The government can allow or disallow gay marriage based on popular vote. Churches can not recognize it religiously in keeping with their faith. Everyone wins.

I think the largest problem is that the government has no right meddling in a religious ceremony to begin with. What needs to happen is that if someone wants the secular benefits of marriage (tax breaks, etc), then they need to have a civil union license. If the couple doesn't care about that, or wants a traditional wedding in addition, that's where the Church comes in. As it stands now, we have the government dictating to the Churches what they can and cannot accept as doctrine. Funny how that "separation of Church and State" thing only comes up when it's the Christians who are complaining, isn't it?

reply to post by micmerci


sorry. i reread closer. i would have to disagree with some of this though:

There is no way that the generally accepted interpretation of the Christian scriptures endorses homosexual marriage. There are interpretations such as yours that do. However, you can not change established dogma by reasoning. The bible is explicit in it's definition of marriage.

what i'm trying to say is that i don't see another way of looking at it. "generally accepted interpretation"? the bible does say homosexual relations are wrong, but it doesn't define marriage at all. marriage has been defined by the church with little basis on what the bible actually says.

what is sex outside marriage? adam and eve were never married and issued a certificate from the government, no ceremony. does that mean they were adulterers? i think mutual love combined with sex and faithfulness is what god considers marriage.

reply to post by Bob Sholtz


I think a poster already answered the question of the bibles interpretation of marriage.

Also you are correct in saying that Adam and Eve did not get a government certificate of marriage. That is because God performed the ceremony in Eden.

And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made [them] at the beginning made them male and female,

5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

No matter how you approach it, the God of Abraham does not endorse gay marriage. People have free will and can do with that what they please.

good points, but they're flawed.

genesis was written by moses at a time when marriage ceremonies were already the established social trend. (they probably started as small get together celebrations, then became more and more formal) that isn't what adam said verbatim, but moses' perception on marriage. adam and eve were the first humans, they wouldn't have had any notion of what "leaving your father and mother" was, nor the concept of "wife". this shows us it is actually moses' opinion.

also, if you use that as a definition of marriage, leaving your parents and having sex with someone constitutes marriage.

can't marry kin

really? how do you think adam and eve populated the earth? unless they gave birth to every human, and no one else had sex (obviously not true). furthermore, this would mean god gave two contradictory mandates. populate the earth, but don't have sex with kin. it wouldn't be possible.

but they have no claim what so ever to Holy Matrimony

so we're back at "where is marriage defined by god in the bible?"

Originally posted by Bob Sholtz
good points, but they're flawed.

genesis was written by moses at a time when marriage ceremonies were already the established social trend. (they probably started as small get together celebrations, then became more and more formal) that isn't what adam said verbatim, but moses' perception on marriage.

Actually that's an assumption on your part. We don't actually know who wrote the first few chapters of Genesis but we do know that this isn't Moses' perception of marriage, due to something said later by Christ in Matthew 19:4-5 where He attributes the details of the marriage of Adam to Eve as coming directly from God the Father.

adam and eve were the first humans, they wouldn't have had any notion of what "leaving your father and mother" was, nor the concept of "wife". this shows us it is actually moses' opinion.

also, if you use that as a definition of marriage, leaving your parents and having sex with someone constitutes marriage.

Let's try this again. You seem confused as to the fact that God, who is outside of the timestream, would know something that didn't occur until later. If this declaration was, indeed, from Moses then I would agree but Christ disagrees with you so you're overruled. Sorry, but that's pretty cut and dried.

really? how do you think adam and eve populated the earth? unless they gave birth to every human, and no one else had sex (obviously not true). furthermore, this would mean god gave two contradictory mandates. populate the earth, but don't have sex with kin. it wouldn't be possible.

Again, you're missing something because you don't know the Bible. The restriction against incest wasn't included until much later. Adam and Eve were under no such restrictions at the time.

so we're back at "where is marriage defined by god in the bible?"

Listen, just because you don't like what the truth is doesn't mean you get to redefine it. The definition of marriage, per Scripture, has been shown to you. If you reject it, it's your decision but you don't get to redefine facts to fit your bias.

reply to post by Bob Sholtz


The author and date of the book of Genesis is not known. It is a widely held belief that it was written by the Hand of God itself.

Just as the other poster stated...like it or dislike it- scripture is crystal clear on the subject of marriage. Gay marriage included.

i have a few things that i would like to point out on the subject. first, the issue of gay marriage is not if it id moral or recognized by god, the issue is that the state does not give others who live an alternative lifestyle to the christian majority the right to enter into a domestic partnership contract- which as far as the state is concerned is what marriage is.

there are situations that arise that marriage makes all the difference in the world. insurance is one, next of kin status is another. your moral beliefs aside, lets just say that two men have lived together for 20 years and for all intents and purposes are married. one day one partner is in a tragic accident and is taken into intensive care. the man has no insurance but his partner does, the partner's insurance could have saved the hospital thousands by putting him down as his legal spouse but couldn’t because of the christians who say that it is immoral. next, the man slips into a coma and the doctors need the next of kin to make some decisions but the relatives live across the country and are not there when these decisions need to be made. the partner has been there from the start and will be there to the end and yet still has no legal right to make decisions even though he knows what the man would want better than anyone else.

lets take it one step further. the man dies in the icu before his relatives arrive. his relatives who did not approve of his lifestyle or partner decide to take his body back to his hometown across the country, make all of the arrangements, and because they believe as many of you do, they bar his partner of twenty years from the funeral.

that’s not right is it? it happened to a close family friend a few years ago. i remember thinking to myself, i bet his parents would rather die than have someone come in and force their faith on them right now in this sad time, yet that’s exactly what they did to ed (the partner). if they were granted a legal status as domestic partners it would not make what my wife and i any less significant. many, many same sex commitment ceremonies take place but have no legal recognition. why would it hurt you to let them carry on as they will anyway, but with the legal power to keep their affairs in order? do u feel that they should be punished? if that’s the case, go ahead and cast the first stone.