Here's an Argument YOU Can't WIn

Originally posted by gator1177
please don't quote scientific research cause it's relative to who did the research.....and that doesn't make it the truth......

No, its not.

Scientific method- refers to a body of techniques for investigating phenomena, acquiring new knowledge, or correcting and integrating previous knowledge. To be termed scientific, a method of inquiry must be based on gathering empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning.

Relative- Considered in relation or in proportion to something else

And there is the problem with your argument. The scientific method is NOT relative to who did the research whatsoever. The only thing that matters in the scientific method is measurement of reality. Also, in order for a theory to be "scientific" it must be falsifiable so if something is amiss one can just come in do the experiment and prove them wrong. The only way the scientific method can be relative is when reality is relative, which it's not. So I submit that your argument is falsified.

Everything is theory. The current theory is supported by research and all that until the next theory is created that furthers our understanding of what is true and what is not. That's all.

reply to post by gator1177


You certainly opened up a can of Philosophical worms!

So what we're talking about is absolute relativism (the stance the OP is taking) versus absolute truth. Let me tell you that there are examples that support both causes and a philosopher, who is much smarter than any of us, basically gave up on this a long time ago because both sides are right.

Some examples of both:

Absolute truth: Gravity on this planet. The reality of gravity has shaped our perception of it, meaning it is absolute. You and I can have no other "interpretation" of gravity than 9.80665 m / s2.

Absolute relativism: The color red. People who are colorblind perceive "red" completely different. So, we can say that our perception of "red" shapes the reality of it.

Just as a riverbed changes over time so does our certainty of reality. At any point in time there is a certainty through which our lives flow and there are things that we are absolutely sure of; however, at any given time our ground of certainty can change, giving way to a new reality. If you pick one side or the other you will be wrong; things will always change and all of these scenarios can be one thing one time and one thing another time. (paraphrased from the works of Ludwig Wittgenstein)

reply to post by gator1177


My answer -

Because we enjoy debate and learning.

Whether or not I win is subjective.

Originally posted by gator1177

please don't quote scientific research cause it's all relative to who did the research.....and that doesn't make it the truth......

You can when the research is repeatable and the funding is from different sources. It is especially interesting when research from different disciplines match.

please don't quote the bible or any other religious text cause you don't know who wrote it or why and you certainly don't know if it's true you just have faith it is and that's not the same thing as truth....

All religious texts have an element of history embedded in them. When texts can be cross referenced then it is highly likely they refer to the same event. For example Jesus Christ was a real person however the claim about being the son of God is only in christian texts and thus cannot be relied upon. (I'm atheist by the way).

please don't say the obvious i.e. the sun goes up the sun goes down.....

What , even some people deny the bleedin obvious because it conflicts with their belief system?

It seems like the only thing you have not dismissed for use as evidence is the "wild guess".

If I can perform an experiment;(anything) document and measure the results .And you perform the same experiment document and measure the same results. that is "truth" or"proof" or a "fact".
Some thing Very often missing here.
Just believing in something does not constitute "PROOF"; "truth or a fact".

People "pooh-poohed" the NASA briefing thread today: "boh-ring.. a waste of my 4 minutes"
Planets orbiting binary star systems were known only in fictional movies until that finished presentation was delivered.
NOW its a "FACT" there are planets orbiting binary stars. real life Big news and you were alive to see it..

Well, the obvious thing about the sun going up and down - is that it doesn´t.

That´s just based on old myths and misunderstandings.

The Earth however goes around the Sun and that is the truth.

Originally posted by gator1177
It seems so many threads want to state the obvious and this is how it is!

What makes what you think the truth is the actual truth?

i.e. the sun goes up the sun goes down.....


what I am getting at is why do people think what they know is the absolute truth when we are in the infancy of our society?

what you are getting at is your own infancy in terms of knowledge. Ever heard of Plato or Aristotle?

truth, is defined as 'what is' , and you can rest assured, 'what is' is definitely somewhere in the mix

Originally posted by ohyouknow
Everything is theory. The current theory is supported by research and all that until the next theory is created that furthers our understanding of what is true and what is not. That's all.

WOW, you took the words out of my mouth. iv said that exact thing to many people (not here on ATS, but in with friends/ relatives ect) and they stand there scratching their heads looking at me like i got dribble running down my chin or summin

If we can't do anything you mentioned, should we not be replying to this thread?

Most of our knowledge, comes from scientific studies and breakthroughs, so anything we say comes from what we are taught(Just stated the obvious)

That being said, it's apart of scientific "truth", and if it isn't the truth, how are any of us having this conversation right now. Opinions are a huge part to conversing as well.

So the OP wants proof without us showing any proof. Okay!

Originally posted by jeramie
So the OP wants proof without us showing any proof. Okay!

well the thread is titled ''Here's an Argument YOU cant WIn'' lol

but i think hes gona all philosophical on us, he wants to know how we perceive 'truth' and how we differentiate between what is 100% facts and the half truths that derive from these facts

Originally posted by gator1177It seems so many threads want to state the obvious and this is how it is!

What is truth and how do you know your truth and what you perceive is the truth?

What makes what you think the truth is the actual truth?

please don't quote scientific research cause it's all relative to who did the research.....and that doesn't make it the truth......

please don't quote the bible or any other religious text cause you don't know who wrote it or why and you certainly don't know if it's true you just have faith it is and that's not the same thing as truth....

please don't say the obvious i.e. the sun goes up the sun goes down.....


what I am getting at is why do people think what they know is the absolute truth when we are in the infancy of our society?

if you are angry enough to change the world then do it go ahead and try but why sit here and talk and argue what is or isn't when nothing that is said will solve anything?

don;t get me wrong i love this site for all the info it conveys but for all the petty arguing....i disdain it....

you're right i'm wrong i'll admit it you happy?

to each their own and the 'golden rule' would go far to eliminate, or at least minimize, the vast majority of such.

personally ... i'd rather review and consider a myriad of views and opinions, and after which come to my own 'conclusion'(s). thank you very much.

truth is subjective. mine may not be yours.

stickies the wicket a bit, in that sense, eh ...

just as beauty is in the eye of the beholder, truth is to the mind of the same.

Originally posted by 12m8keall2c

truth is subjective. mine may not be yours.

...is that not a blatant contradiction?
If truth is subjective, then haven't you just lied?

I think, rather, we need to discern between truths. Between relative truth (e.g. "that banana is yellow", which might apply now, but won't apply if I turn the lights off), and absolute truth (e.g. "that is a banana". It either is or it isn't. Can't be in both states at once).

i'd rather review and consider a myriad of views and opinions, and after which come to my own 'conclusion'(s). thank you very much.

my thought exactly, but it is human nature to try and defend our veiws from people that might challenge them

Originally posted by iNkGeEk
so we can't use scientific research or fact. we can't use any religious text. and we can't state the obvious. we aren't able to just state our beliefs/opinions because they are...welll...opinion and beliefs.

so just what are we supposed to use to try and "prove" our point?

This video explains what our friend is trying to convey, tell me if I am wrong.

www.youtube.com...

The idea of "proof" is a delusion solely based on assumption, theory, subjectiveness etc.

reply to post by Fraam


thank you i see your wisdom

reply to post by Awen24

you missed the point then.... i say it again....your truths only matter to you...argue all you want...you think i undermined my statement...because you view it from your own subjective reality....go outside yourself...empathize, experience what you have not experienced.....is there truth there? or is it just your thoughts on the matter? basically, this world is what you make of it, it's all you got, make your own reality, and leave others to theirs as long as it doesnt directly or negatively (without bias and vanity) affect your reality...

Originally posted by Awen24

Originally posted by 12m8keall2c

truth is subjective. mine may not be yours.

...is that not a blatant contradiction?
If truth is subjective, then haven't you just lied?

I think, rather, we need to discern between truths. Between relative truth (e.g. "that banana is yellow", which might apply now, but won't apply if I turn the lights off), and absolute truth (e.g. "that is a banana". It either is or it isn't. Can't be in both states at once).

thats not a blatant contradiction...who says that banana is yellow? is it because the majority of people says it is? all we have done is labeled things a banana is a banana cause we say it is......and the majority believes that as truth.....we only say its yellow so we can communicate between each other...its only a banana so i can tell you what im talking about for you to understand....in the end its nothing more than what it is.....something i see on a tree....that smells good...and i want to eat it....our education made it yellow , a banana, and good to eat.......so to go further on something more serious is eugenics the truth or natural selection? and why? even though what you say will not make it the truth except to you and those you can persuade to believe it

reply to post by 12m8keall2c

exactly!