Here's an Argument YOU Can't WIn

It seems so many threads want to state the obvious and this is how it is!

What is truth and how do you know your truth and what you perceive is the truth?

What makes what you think the truth is the actual truth?

please don't quote scientific research cause it's all relative to who did the research.....and that doesn't make it the truth......

please don't quote the bible or any other religious text cause you don't know who wrote it or why and you certainly don't know if it's true you just have faith it is and that's not the same thing as truth....

please don't say the obvious i.e. the sun goes up the sun goes down.....


what I am getting at is why do people think what they know is the absolute truth when we are in the infancy of our society?

if you are angry enough to change the world then do it go ahead and try but why sit here and talk and argue what is or isn't when nothing that is said will solve anything?

don;t get me wrong i love this site for all the info it conveys but for all the petty arguing....i disdain it....

you're right i'm wrong i'll admit it you happy?

so we can't use scientific research or fact. we can't use any religious text. and we can't state the obvious. we aren't able to just state our beliefs/opinions because they are...welll...opinion and beliefs.

so just what are we supposed to use to try and "prove" our point?

I think people don't use the correct wordage when they speak.

I'd like the government, NASA, the medical community, weathermen, police and judges, to all say things like,
"Going by what we think we know, this seems to be the best solution.... what do you all think?"

Honesty like that is extinct in society it seems.
And we wonder why problems seem to get worse.

reply to post by iNkGeEk


exactly why you cant win an argument....because its all relative to who you are arguing with is it that hard to comprehend?
what makes fact a fact? is Einstein's relativity a fact? Why can't it explain gravity?

but in the end does it really matter? to you?

reply to post by JibbyJedi

i totally agree with you but the sad fact is that most people go with this is what i believe or this is how it is whether its true or not.....

in the end all we have is our own truths...right or wrong....

now convince me im wrong....

get my point?

reply to post by gator1177


Never said you were wrong.
People see and hear what they want to see and hear... I wish I had their gifts. My life would be so boring and uneventful if I saw and heard only what I wanted. Can you imagine how awesomely blissful that must be?



*sigh*

reply to post by gator1177


So are you saying that water is wet or fire is hot only because I perceive it that way? someone else may feel water as orange and fire as music because that's how they interpret it?

And are you saying that the scientific knowledge that we have of say, internal combustion engines and how they work are wrong because the person who discovered this made the data fit their discovery?

Or are you just a person who isn't able to take criticism when they are wrong...because that's what I think, therefore you aren't able to prove me wrong.

Originally posted by iNkGeEk
reply to post by gator1177

 

So are you saying that water is wet or fire is hot only because I perceive it that way? someone else may feel water as orange and fire as music because that's how they interpret it?

That's exactly how it works. I worked with a blind & deaf middle aged man for years. His only senses were smell and taste and touch, since birth. Has no idea what hot or orange even is remotely, he's probably swimming on Neptume for all we know as far as his conscious mind.

Anyway, he use to walk over to the sink and run the water because he liked playing in it. The people who worked there had to turn the hot water tank lower because he'd play around in the hottest setting for quite a while with a smile on his face and no signs or senses of his hands burning.
He literally didn't perceive the hot water as something harmful, worst his hands got were slightly pink.
Placebo affect I believe.

EDIT: I can't say the same applies for bullets, tidal waves, nuclear bombs, any bombs, AIDS, cancer, stabbings, or death by wild animal mutilations. I hope you get the point of what I was saying though.

The truth is the crucifixion. I know it's the truth because I've experienced the wounds for myself. Truth is something simple but western philosophy muddles up truth in semantics until you doubt everything is true. A child knows what truth is but educated adults get caught up with if they can prove truths. Whether you can prove it or not a truth is still a truth.

reply to post by JibbyJedi


Ok..I get that. And to someone like that, who has been denied certain sensory triggers, of course their perceptions are going to be a bit wonky.

But the OP is saying "Don't use established facts to prove your point. They are worthless and mean nothing." So to prove that I'm a male, I cannot use the argument that I have an XY chromosome, or that I have a penis. Basically there is nothing that I can use to prove that I'm a male, other than I perceive myself as a male. He could then say that he perceives me as Helium, there for I'm wrong and he's right....to him.

That's just being delusional and refusing to ever be wrong. That way, if anyone ever disagrees with him, he can just say, "nope! I'm right because I think I am."

reply to post by iNkGeEk


nope i can't prove you're wrong and i can't prove i'm right.....and vice versa,,,,,

and you can't convince me i'm wrong/right nor can i you.....

tell me the water is fire i might believe if thats what i believe if you can convince me of it....

you really don't get it do you?

this life is my experience whether you think i'm wrong or right... and does my experience ruin your experience? it shouldn't.....

if i choose one way or the other in my beliefs of what is or isn't whether i can use logic or not why make it your crusade to change it ....?

should i make it a crusade to change your belief? does it really matter what you believe? is the world gonna end because of it?

and when a person says the world is going to end do you believe?
why? if not let it all go? enjoy life without fear...cause life you cant control it is what it is

reply to post by 547000


But to the OP...its only a truth because YOU experienced the wounds. He didn't so, to him, it isn't true. According to the OP 2+2 does not equal 4. If he wants to perceive 2+2 = bear, then it is simply because he thinks it is. Now you and everyone else on the Earth may see 2+2 = 4, but that doesn't mean its correct...its just how those people see it.

reply to post by gator1177


This is a platform for people to share news, ideas and stories. It is a way to try and explain the world around us. In doing so we have no choice but to use whatever knowledge is available to us from science, spirituality, religion and art. It is true then more often then not the debate degenerates into right vs. wrong, me vs. you wars, but I think this is inevitable in a public forum, where people from different backgrounds meet.
There is a time for action and a time for discussion. I don't see why these two have to be mutually exclusive. ATS (and any public forum for that matter) is the "time" for discussion. In order to change the world around you one has to first understand it's mechanics. Because of the different backgrounds of the posters we get diversity and a wider perspective. It is through this wider perspective that science, spirituality, religion and art will harmonize and come together in creating the new "science" of the 21st century. Consider the wars as being the bumps along the way.

reply to post by iNkGeEk


established facts huh? facts made by academia or religion what facts?

what facts are you talking about?

the ones that says the apocalypse is coming or that that e=mc2?

be more specific

reply to post by Fraam


i agree great post!

reply to post by iNkGeEk


It's true whether he believes it or not. It's not proof, but it is truth.

Just because people haven't had religious experiences doesn't mean they won't go to hell for failure to recognize the truth. The truth is something not merely dependent on our senses. Whether we perceive it or not doesn't change the truth. A truth can be true whether perceivable or provable or not.

We can insist 2 + 2 = bear all we want but if it's false it's false.

reply to post by Fraam


agreed. but the OP is refusing to accept even basic truths in life such as humans need oxygen to live. the post is his way of saying there is nothing you can say to make me believe you. so if you say i'm wrong, well, YOU'RE wrong. Why? because i say you are.

that is just living in a delusional world. if the OP wants to create their own reality that's fine, but its going to be a very difficult world to live in. especially if your biggest argument is "no its not."

but whatever tickles your pickle.

reply to post by gator1177


ok...fact. 2+2 = 4. right? I can prove that by putting 4 things in front of you, then taking away 2 of them. there will be 2 items remaining.

Water is created when 2 hydrogen atoms combine with 1 oxygen atom.

Humans need oxygen to breathe.

If i drop a ball of the roof of my house, it falls towards the ground.

Are any of these facts wrong?

reply to post by Fraam


this is a great forum to exchange ideas and grow thoughts absolutely.....

i agree wholeheartedly to read and learn the pros and cons of every topic posted (that interests me)

but this isn't the purpose of this thread....

the purpose is to bring to light the negativity of the irrationality of how people think what they believe is the truth....

because whether i believe that blue is red or night is day this is my experience...

so let it be....

even if you don't agree, say so, and let it be.....

so many threads people argue about the same stuff to no avail and does it all really matter?

and i'm not talk about good wholesome debates i'm talking about shameful attacking....

when all it does is divide us and is needless and it doesn't matter if you think aliens exist or i think humans have been here for millions of years....

reply to post by 547000


But that's exactly what the OP is saying ISNT true. is argument is that there is NO WAY to prove anything is right, wrong or in between. And it isn't just religious or spiritual truths. it EVERYTHING.