Enough with the dishonest behaviour Truthers - I'm calling you out.

Originally posted by Blaine91555
reply to post by captainnotsoobvious

 

That Terrorist attack has caused this country enough pain and the Truther Movement is adding to that pain for no good reason. It's just become an Anarchist tool and a vehicle for the haters in our society to use as a weapon. Not to mention the Truthers have actually been helpful to the same Terrorists who did kill those innocent people; so helpful in fact I wonder if there are not some Terrorists involved in pushing the Truther agenda. That is a real Conspiracy.

WTH? Truthers have been helpful to terrorists? Oh good god I gotta see the evidence on this one, go ahead, post away, if you're gonna make a ridiculous claim, you better back it with something. Im a "Truther" and I fought for two years in two different countries because of this crap, and to assume that truthers "help" terrorists is just flat out bat# crazy.

Originally posted by liejunkie01
reply to post by Rabbit281

 

The Pentagon DOES have a Missile defense system. We have all kinds of crazy things, sometimes called SAM Sites, that are poised in key locations to be able to shoot down things like ICBM's.

Do you have any evidence for this to be true before 9-11-01?

I would like to read it......

Please no truther links.

I'll find something. My Dad was in the military from the early 80's to mid-90's as a missile technician, and often worked on Mobile Patriot missile systems.

Honestly though, during a time of quick response, it isnt much harder than turning the key to one of the mobile systems and tracking the projectile, or in this case, plane.

But I will work on finding something solid, without using a truther site. Like I said, The Pentagon has a defense system, but this is part of a network of many many missile "units" if you will that blanket our skies in defense. It is very likely that if such a site exists in the area of the Pentagon that it resides at Bolling AFB or Ft McNair. These systems are also adapted for sea use, and seeing how there's a Naval base in close proximity as well, it could have easily been protected by a ship off of the coast.

I mean, am I the ONLY Veteran on this site who's seen systems like this at work? Am I one of the only people alive that actually remembers a system like this taking out a SCUD Missile? We sat there for hours on end and watched bombs get dropped right down vents and chimneys all over Iraq live on TV, if they can do that, then there isn't much they can't do from a stationary tracker with a wide range.

reply to post by Rabbit281


And you would determine a hostile from an airliner shooting a missed approach at Reagan National HOW? and in time to "save" the Pentagon? You couldnt. Point stands, having missile systems at the Pentagon or missiles close enough to defend the Pentagon, would have been grossly stupid.

Honestly, it is ONE CONSPIRACY THEORY (promoted by Cheney and the like) versus ALL the others.
In truth, most "truthers" just ask questions and mostly they go unanswered or the other side - the believers in the Muslim conspiracy theory will "shoot the messenger."
To me there are a lot of technical and political and financial details are being argued up to this point, because the 911 Commission obviously covered up some evidence.

Already the title is inflammatory and not really a matter of civil discourse. Why would "truthers" be "dishonest" when they usually believe there is something wrong with Bush's conspiracy theory (which found ben Ladin all too easily)? Dishonest is a person who does not belieev what he or she is saying. I think that is not true of most truthers.

The truth remains to be proven.
However, it will never go in this fashion.
You dug yourself into a war trench by your very title. So, end of dicourse - you are a True Believer as defined by the seminal book by Eric Hoffa.
At the least, you will get questions you cannot possibly answer honestly.
Then maybe dishonestly, based on your unshakeable convition that anyone that questions authority is in the wrong. (Remember, the US was founded upon the very principle that ordinary people should question King George.)

reply to post by liejunkie01



Annnnnd here's your evidence, not a single 911 truth site in in sight.


First, from the good old big brother himself, the US Missile Defense Agency, right on the front page is states that this branch was started 25 years ago when Reagan challenged our researchers to come up with a system that would ease our reliance on Nuclear Weapons.

Missile Defense Agency


Here's another page, same site, that gives a graphic interpretation of this sytem, including the Patriot Missiles I mentioned earlier.

Missile Defense Graphic


Oh and then there's always that all knowing Air Defense system that we call NORAD. And, for any OS'er out there that wants to say that the US had no missile defense system before Sept 11 2001, Id like to go ahead and say, before you read the link, that the NORAD facility had it's groundbreaking on June 16th, 1961.

NORAD

And yet another page from the NORAD site, giving you a chronology of the missile defense system that the US and Canada jointly team 24 hours a day. However, along with the link, Id like to give ONE big date, and its right there on the page, I think itll settle all this "No US Missile Defense Before 9-11-01" stuff :


19 Jul 62
A Nike Zeus antiballistic missile (ABM) made first successful interception
of an ICBM target nose cone, flown at true ICBM range,
speed, and trajectory of Kwajalein. The target was boosted into trajectory
by an Atlas missile launched from Vandenberg AFB, CA


Yeah, that says our first successful attempt at projectile interception happened on July 19, 1962. I think that predates 9-11 by what? 39 YEARS.

NORAD Timeline

Originally posted by captainnotsoobvious

So, enough of that.

I'm calling you out.

6. 1/10th or 1% of active engineers in America is a meaningful amount. - NOT TRUE

Ok Mr know it all

1/10 = 1% - NOT TRUE
1/10 = 10% - TRUE

That says enough about the OP for me...

I'm calling YOU out. Who profited from shorting the airline stocks and why hasn't this information been revealed? Why can't we hear the blackbox recordings? Why wouldn't Bush & Cheney testify under oath?

I'm glad you believe the official version of the collapse of the towers. I've swamp land I know you will love.

Sincerely though, I'd trust a whole lot of retired structural engineers to be on the mark, Because they are retired doesn't mean they lost their faculties for reason, instead it means they have no reason to fear reprisals as they are receiving pensions and SS.

Jet fuel is little more than diesel fuel. It doesn't burn hot enough to cause structural damage to steel. And the fires were essentially long out before the buildings collapsed. Oh there were small fires, but nothing that would be accountable for ultimate collapse. (Oh, jet fuel doesn't explode unless under great pressure).

Also jet fuel should have been pouring out of those floors while burning. I didn't notice any flowing out of the building. Where were the enormous amounts of jet fuel one would expect from an airliner? After all it isn't like gasoline which would rapidly combust . Maybe I'm wrong on not seeing it, anybody see it?.

If the building was going to collapse, the upper floors, above the aircraft entry points, would have tilted and collapsed, causing much of those upper floors to fall sideways but neither did that, it collapsed just as if it were purposely demolished.

Why did the firemen, who survived, hear not one but many explosions long after the aircraft his? I recall one of them saying it was bam, bam, bam bam, ....etc. That certainly was not the floors collapsing, it was some sort of charges exploding.

I'd say you need to go back to your governmental job of rewriting history to match what the powers that be want us to believe.

Originally posted by SirClem
Enough with the dishonest behaviour [sic] Truthers - I'm calling you out.

Oh, really.....

Any how many stars? Well, balanced against how many members, maybe not all bad news...

I realize this is ATS, and there are T&C rules. But, how do you convey to the author of the thread that ATS cannot be an intelligent place to post ideas if it is NOT AN INTELLIGENT PLACE TO POST IDEAS?

Someone has an avatar of two dummies whacking each other. That is THIS thread, and I mean no disrespect to those that truly CARE about the truth, sometimes, not always, called TRUTHERS.

This thread helps no one. Nothing.

There have been other ridiculous threads in the same vein over the last days, a Shanksville thread started off in the same way, and brought nothing to the table, except initial OP rhetoric, yet there have been similar threads in the past that brought much to the table, and gave people a chance to speak.

reply to post by smurfy

I am all for that, giving folks a chance to speak.
The "dishonest behavior" part?
Not a big fan.

Originally posted by vipertech0596
reply to post by Rabbit281

 

And you would determine a hostile from an airliner shooting a missed approach at Reagan National HOW? and in time to "save" the Pentagon? You couldnt. Point stands, having missile systems at the Pentagon or missiles close enough to defend the Pentagon, would have been grossly stupid.

Ok, see now you are assuming that every bit of that defense system isnt CONSTANTLY monitored by a team of military personnel.

Also, we have a missile defense system in place in this country. That is a LARGE reason why we have things like ground to air communication and FLIGHT PLANS. You think that NORAD doesnt know the destination and tail number of every aircraft in our airspace? If you think they don't, you got your head stuck up somewhere, seriously bad.

Point (yours, for clarification) fails. These missiles are not sentient with the ability to pick and choose what they shoot down. Everything in our airspace is tracked, and if deemed hostile shot down. Now, after 39 years of working perfectly well, you tell me how the hell NORAD managed to lose not one, but THREE commerical airliners for an HOUR in our own airspace, which went way off their flight plans, suggesting that they might be compromised?

Most people who you would group into the truther movement have been "joining the dots" for the best part of ten years now.

When someone comes along with a few valid arguments to the common theories then they should be addressed and re-evaluated. It's what the so-called "truthers" do.

Some collect as much information on the unexplained events and use devices such as Occam's Razor to gain a plausable explanation.

You have linked to interesting controlled demolition video clips that don't discredit any alternative theory about how the twin towers fell. You have actually provided a plausible way to explain the tower collapse and have added ammunition to those who suspect foul play.

Please contribute any other inside information you think you have and the "truther movement" will continue to join the dots for you.

Thank you for sharing.

Originally posted by smurfy


Blaine what you say just fortifies the thread as being null and void since it is about dishonesty. not what anyone may believe, rightly or wrongly.

One thing pointed out here, perhaps not as well as it could have been, is that those still pushing the nonsensical parts of the Truther agenda, are doing so for nefarious reasons. Some I'm convinced are pushing it based on their support of, or involvement in the same Terrorist agenda behind the lunatics who flew those planes into the towers. Some are doing it and even knowingly spreading lies because they hate America and Americans and are perfectly willing to lie or pretend false evidence is real. The Conspiracy Theory has become the real Conspiracy.

Perhaps we need a Forum for the 9/11 Truther Conspiracy, Conspiracy (...and no I'm not stuttering).

reply to post by Rabbit281


Thank you for the links.

I read through several, several of them and could not find anything that said we have them protecting the pentagon. I know we spend serious money on missile defense..........

I was wanting something that said we have sams at the pentagon, such as you stated.

I am 32 years old. I remember watching the Gulf War on tv, in junior high school. I remember my teacher particularly talking about dropping a bomb down a ventilartion shaft..........I also remember many tests of the missile defense's capabilities....Or tweaking the system should I say.......

I was only wanting the links stating that they had sams at the pentagon.

I believe there is way too much bs on the 9/11 subject........If there is a sam setup, then cool....But I have not seen one article stating that we have "on alert" surface to air missiles in, on, or around the nations pentagon..........

I am not upset or anything If anybody wishes me to find links or proof, which I usually try to provide if i am taking a discussion seriously.

Oh, and sorry for the late reply. I just got back from a Boy Scout Meeting..(for the people earlier of accusing running away...

reply to post by Rabbit281


Either you are been willfully ignorant or you dont begin to understand reality. There were no active anti air defenses to protect the Pentagon on 9/11/01. You can post all the cites about Nike Ajax and Nike Hecules you want. Those systems were phased out in the 70s and NOTHING replaced them for continental air defense. And when George Herbert Walker Bush signed the orders standing down SAC in 1990-1991 we lost everything else but the 14 air defense fighters that were on duty on 9/11/01. No Patriots, no Stingers nothing.

And it didnt work perfectly well BEFORE 9/11.....hell it took an HOUR to intercept Payne Stewart's plane and IT still had a functioning transponder. It doesnt work perfectly NOW....or did you forget the airliner that overflew its destination by over 100 miles before anyone really noticed it.

reply to post by liejunkie01


I'll try to find something about what our missile defense ring looks like around the pentagon. It's likely going to be hard to find, and if any of it is unclassified, it is likely older than ten years. So if I do find something, great, if not, well, we know people dont take people on their word around here and I wouldnt really hold it against you.

Has anyone seen this?

reply to post by Blaine91555

What lunatics are you talking about, that flew the planes into the towers?
Can you tell me something about them?
Why do you suppose they did such a thing, Blaine?

Originally posted by Rabbit281

Originally posted by Blaine91555
reply to post by captainnotsoobvious

 

That Terrorist attack has caused this country enough pain and the Truther Movement is adding to that pain for no good reason. It's just become an Anarchist tool and a vehicle for the haters in our society to use as a weapon. Not to mention the Truthers have actually been helpful to the same Terrorists who did kill those innocent people; so helpful in fact I wonder if there are not some Terrorists involved in pushing the Truther agenda. That is a real Conspiracy.

WTH? Truthers have been helpful to terrorists? Oh good god I gotta see the evidence on this one, go ahead, post away, if you're gonna make a ridiculous claim, you better back it with something. Im a "Truther" and I fought for two years in two different countries because of this crap, and to assume that truthers "help" terrorists is just flat out bat# crazy.

What I'm saying is so obvious a child could figure it out. If you falsely push the 9/11 Truthers agenda, you are in many cases saying the Terrorists did not bring down the Towers, which they most certainly did. Attempting to make it seem the Islamic Extremists did not commit the mass murder benefits them. It adds to the confusion and brings people who fall for it to their side. Why would they not pretend to be part of it or get involved in it?

I'd be more shocked if their sympathizers were not part of it in fact.

reply to post by Benchkey


I have to correct the idea that the upper portion in both towers did not tllt. They did and manifestly so. Having said that, it takes nothing away from the idea of a mysterious collapse of the rest of the buildings, as in both cases 'the hammer from above' was simply not there, you have to then think of how the rest of the outer parts of the buildings fell and seemingly from above, and also how latterly the core/s fell.