3 Face Hazing Charges After Marine Commits Suicide

He might have suffered from Narcolepsy which is an involuntary sleeping disorder.

Originally posted by gabby2011
reply to post by PLASIFISK

 

now as to us not being your hero - so be it, us being twisted morons - so be it. You have the right to be a total idiot if you like. Have fun with that.

I'm sure not everyone in the military is twisted.. but I have heard enough from people who were in it..and decided to leave..to know that they are NOT my heroes.

If that makes me a total idiot..so be it..

edit on 11-9-2011 by gabby2011 because: (no reason given)

Wait , lol, what/ so your saying that because the people who did serve decided to get out, they are not your hero. Ok that's cool. hey at least they served. The military is not for every one, but at least they tried it. There are some however who have not served and have an awful lot to say about it.lol they, are idiots.

Originally posted by Flyer

Originally posted by BIGPoJo
When your life is on the line and you have someone risking your life, you will haze them too. Obviously this person had issues but to blame suicide on other people is just stupid.

The whole hazing culture from the military/sports teams/college is utterly retarded and juvenile.

They are lucky he didnt kill them first and if someone has previously beaten me, theres no way Id put my life on the like for them.

So how does beating someone so badly that they want to kill themselves help? They actually put themselves in more danger.

Because catching you off guard, exposed and unprotected while sleeping and punishing you on the spot for it opens your eyes to how dangerous it can really be.

Of course, when you can call in sick as a civillian and just not do your duty because you don't feel like it, it's harder to understand such concepts.

That's why the military developed a neat and internal way to stimulate personal growth and keep your butt from getting shot off.

Full Metal Jacket, anyone?



I do not think they should be charged, unless there is some regulation that was broken. I have never been in the military, but i know you do not fall asleep. It's a way for everyone to end up dead by a snoozing sentry.

But, if they charge those three for hazing, they ought to charge people on up the line for abuse during training, etc, and those for sending them there.

Guys just want to stay alive, so their actions *might* have been justified. If i was depending on a fellow soldier to stay awake and guard my butt, you better believe i would be furious if he fell asleep.

ETA: Private Pyle ends up committing suicide, too. 'Course, he was also singled out by the DS.

reply to post by nh_ee


A narcoleptic wouldn't pass the entry medical exam, let alone make it through basic training. Kind of difficult to hide the fact that you can't control sleeping.

There is an often ignored reality in life of which causes so much unnecessary grief among us, that I find it amazing at times that we haven't wiped ourselves off the planet yet. It's called culture, and it is something we must accept - especially when it is not ours - it is when we refuse to that we begin to offend each other and become counterproductive with our arguments.

Drop the outrageous indignation and angst... that baggage does not serve us at all.

I remember long ago, when I served... (not as a Marine,) but that is beside the point. I was reading a book entitled "A History of Warfare" by a scholar named John Keegan (I highly recommend it).

He managed to put into words something that many military people fail at relaying to non-military people. On the face of it, it sounds a bit over-the-top in normal parlance, but it means something that has little to do with "War" per se: I am referring to the "Warrior Culture".

It appears evident to any who have spent time in mixed company, veterans of any meaningful military service, and those who have not. There is a common bond between the 'warriors' that stands out from those who are not. I resisted at first the idea of "warrior" culture because in my perception it had connotations that Hollywood has branded into the image that are far from reality. But I have to presume upon the reader the understanding that we should not confuse our suspension of disbelief in the theatrical portrayals, do that I may proceed to the topic with a better hope of communicating what I mean.

Imagine, if you will, the idea that you are relying on someone to guard your life. And then find them sleeping. Would you consider it acceptable? Would you consider it worthy of escalating your level of disapproval if the same incidents recurred despite your admonitions?

Stop.

What is a Marine unit? How is it that they can trust each other to perform their duties with unwavering diligence and reliability?

Over centuries of social ("cultural") evolution, practices like "close quarter training" have manifested themselves repeatedly, in one form or another, more so in isolated combat units than any other. Over time, each unit may be subject to repugnant duties and overt derision for the failures of one element. at its most civilized it is a matter of goodhearted ribbing and ridicule - at worst it can be professional ostracizing and poor performance reviews which can affect careers. More often it is the opposite; good duty leads to awards such as liberties, and other opportunities... paradoxically this does not end the ribbing and intra-unit tomfoolery, it actually remains relatively constant. All of this leads to a culture within the unit of familiarity, although beneath the surface lies the universal social element of people in general. Not everyone likes everyone else, cliques form, some ugliness is as inevitable as it is anywhere.

Stop.

Each unit, optimally, is self-sufficient to the highest degree, aside from obvious professional functions, if the unit can take care of it, they will. Feed themselves, make shelters, care for their injured, all while achieving their mission goals. For the most part, every one knows each others names, they have seen each other sleeping, and probably had to help them with any number of tasks. These people know each other.

Stop.

Military leadership relies on unit cohesion as a function of moral. They WANT these people to drive each other, police each other, help each other, educate each other... inspire each other... THAT's a win. It merits mentioning that there is an inherent weakness in the detached approach.... we have just seen one example of it.

Stop.

Honor and duty can take the place of religion and even patriotism ... there are those who will insist that the failures of this poor man were the reason he is dead, and it is a good thing he is, because one day his failure might have gotten them all killed. It is difficult to argue against the importance of that possibility. In fact, from a paranoid or overzealous perspective his repeated failures to stay awake was a threat to the unit. How do units respond to threats?


If this man was unfit for duty, if he could not fulfill his obligations as a Marine, he should have been discharged and disciplined according to the UCMJ. Close quarter training, or hazing, or whatever you want to call it, is by definition the application of discipline by people unqualified to gauge the circumstances; the NCO's in the unit failed at their duty, the CO failed at his.

This was a failure which started long ago when the traditionalists' insistence that close quarter training is an essential element of battle-readiness. Of course, this all falls apart unless we are wiling to accept that we don't care about a "person" once he or she becomes a 'warrior.'

What ARE all those "stops" about? You may have guessed. I will be looking for it in the ideas that follow....

reply to post by sbctinfantry


Maybe they would have been better off finding ways of not making people stay awake for days on end. instead of doing that, they try and find more ways of getting their soldiers to be able to stay awake without sleep using drugs.

Im sure he didnt think "oh Ill have a nap now", if you go long enough without sleep, everyones body will shut down or you will die.

reply to post by Maxmars


You hit the nail on the head. That type of behavior is not tolerated. It shows lack of professionalism and all out failers of the entire chain of leadership. They lost a soldier. A loss that could have been prevented. I lost a brother.

If your on the front line ,and someone sleeps on guard duty ,they put the whole unit life's at risk ,not just there own ,so they have to be punished ,this is not about human rights here ,this is about group survival in a very dangerous situation ,everyone wants to go home alive.

I'm sure the do gooders here ,are appalled by what happen to this man ,but untill you been in a dangerous combat zone ,you can't really pass judgement ,everyone is under great pressure ,and sleeping on guard duty is unacceptable.

I'm sure the soldiers involved didn't do this for pleasure ,it probably upset them just as much as Lance Cpl. Harry Lew ,but it has to be done.

Unfortunately he was of a weak nature ,as harsh as that must sound.

Guard Duty is sacred !

The Sleepy Sentinel

Faithless the watch that I kept: now I have none to keep.
I was slain because I slept: now I am slain I sleep.
Let no man reproach me again; whatever watch is unkept--
I sleep because I am slain. They slew me because I slept.

Rudyard Kipling

reply to post by TheMaverick


So are you supportive of hazing of this kind? Is this out come acceptabe?

reply to post by PLASIFISK


I though i made my stance pretty clear in my last post ?

Originally posted by PLASIFISK
They should be tried and jailed for failing to keep their battle buddy safe. Soldiers can be very mean to one another, which is age old, but you as a soldier need to know if everyone playing the game can handle it. if not, then this happens. big boy world, big boy games. Hey OP have you served?

Are you for real? If your but was on the line I bet you would be singing a another song. It is so simple to questions these guys from your comfy chair. I say this marine got what he had coming for falling asleep time and time again.


I would rather have these guys defending my freedom then you any day. Hugs just don't work sometimes.

Originally posted by TheMaverick
reply to post by PLASIFISK

 

I though i made my stance pretty clear in my last post ?

I read it again , and i see you are in support of it. Lol you probably think any soldier that sleeps on duty should be killed, huh? Hahahaha kill them all! Hahahaha Fact of the matter is, if you are a soldier, you are not a leader. And if you are wearing any kind of stripes or brass, you are not a leader. Your talking out the side of your azz and your soldiers if you have any mean nothing to you. Stand on that.

Originally posted by Subjective Truth

Originally posted by PLASIFISK
They should be tried and jailed for failing to keep their battle buddy safe. Soldiers can be very mean to one another, which is age old, but you as a soldier need to know if everyone playing the game can handle it. if not, then this happens. big boy world, big boy games. Hey OP have you served?

Are you for real? If your but was on the line I bet you would be singing a another song. It is so simple to questions these guys from your comfy chair. I say this marine got what he had coming for falling asleep time and time again.


I would rather have these guys defending my freedom then you any day. Hugs just don't work sometimes.

Lol. My butt just got off the line 3 months ago for the 6 time! And since you mentioned it, my comfy chiar is rather nice, ive missed it so. Going back out in about 10 months with the most awsome CAB in the army. We take of each other. Have we had soldiers fall asleep on duty, surrrrre . Do we wip their azz for doing so? No! An article 15 does just fine. Loss of pay and rank, and duty works very well! Aviators love flying! Long hours and grueling work sure. But we love it. We save the azz woopin for the bad guys not our brothers and sisters. So anyway how is your comfy chair bub?

reply to post by PLASIFISK



So you are not a front line soldier? I kinda figured you were not but thank you for clearing it up. Flying or servicing a plane in the rear is a far cry from the front lines. Would you not agree?


Thank you for your service anyways.

Originally posted by Subjective Truth
reply to post by PLASIFISK

 

So you are not a front line soldier? I kinda figured you were not but thank you for clearing it up.

Flying or servicing a plane in the rear is a far cry from the front lines. Would you not agree?


Thank you for your service anyways.

There is no line. I go where you cryin azz soldiers request air support, extraction, or just need a lift cause your to lazy to walk. Into your raggedy azz COPs we go watching you run for cover as we bring the heat from the sky, getting our airframes shot up all because you cant do your job. But hay keep training.and thank you for the job
security! CLEAR UP LEFT!

reply to post by PLASIFISK


I think it is more a question of safety rather then lines. Some battlefield areas are very unsafe right? And you need guards to stay awake.



What you are saying kinda sounds like resentment. It is very hard to judge unless you have walked in anothers shoes. If your guard falls asleep the guy relieving him wakes him up. If a Marines unit guard falls asleep it could cost everyone their lives.



I don't want you to think that I don't have alot of respect for what you do. Very few people can do what you do. And thank you.

Originally posted by Subjective Truth
reply to post by PLASIFISK

 

I think it is more a question of safety rather then lines. Some battlefield areas are very unsafe right? And you need guards to stay awake.



What you are saying kinda sounds like resentment. It is very hard to judge unless you have walked in anothers shoes. If your guard falls asleep the guy relieving him wakes him up. If a Marines unit guard falls asleep it could cost everyone their lives.

I don't want you to think that I don't have alot of respect for what you do. Very few people can do what you do. And thank you.

edit on 11-9-2011 by Subjective Truth because: (no reason given)

I understand guard duty. Have done it a few times in my life mainly as SOG. My issue here is you never, ever leave a fallen soldier! Most importantly you dont kill your fellow battle buddies. If it becomes fact that he killed himself because of their action, then they should be charged with murder, the nco's demoted, and the officers releaved of duty. Its all their faults. That soldier had a mom and dad and possibly brothers and sisters who will miss him. Sensless.

I don't think I am a 'do gooder' if I suggest that the hazing was wrong. Clearly, the hazing was detrimental enough that it caused this man to commit suicide. I am not saying he shouldn't have been punished, perhaps even discharged, but it does nothing for 'feeling like a part of the team' if you are more afraid of your own comrades killing you than the Taliban. Even looking at sports, like football (soccer), when a player messes up and misses a penalty kick or something, and loses the game for the team (just happened to the Sounders actually) the rest of the team doesn't haze them. The team comforts and helps the player while the COACHES work with the person who missed the PK and help him improve his skills. And, regardless of what others may say, the entire team looks at it as a team loss, because you go in as a team and come out as a team, regardless of what happens during the game.

In this case, I think everyone is at fault. Yes, the Marine messed up, and yes, maybe people could have died, but in the end, he is the only one who died, and anytime someone dies their loss should be mourned. Especially by the Marines. It was a team loss for them. One person goes down, we all go down.

Oh, and I haven't served. I'm a 19 year old girl. No, I don't know how the military functions, but I know that hazing is wrong and intimidation is wrong. I mean, we are going to Afghanistan to fight terrorists, right? (no but for the sake of this let's say yes) Let's stop the terrorists who are in our own military first how bout.

Originally posted by spacekc929
I don't think I am a 'do gooder' if I suggest that the hazing was wrong. Clearly, the hazing was detrimental enough that it caused this man to commit suicide. I am not saying he shouldn't have been punished, perhaps even discharged, but it does nothing for 'feeling like a part of the team' if you are more afraid of your own comrades killing you than the Taliban. Even looking at sports, like football (soccer), when a player messes up and misses a penalty kick or something, and loses the game for the team (just happened to the Sounders actually) the rest of the team doesn't haze them. The team comforts and helps the player while the COACHES work with the person who missed the PK and help him improve his skills. And, regardless of what others may say, the entire team looks at it as a team loss, because you go in as a team and come out as a team, regardless of what happens during the game.

In this case, I think everyone is at fault. Yes, the Marine messed up, and yes, maybe people could have died, but in the end, he is the only one who died, and anytime someone dies their loss should be mourned. Especially by the Marines. It was a team loss for them. One person goes down, we all go down.

Oh, and I haven't served. I'm a 19 year old girl. No, I don't know how the military functions, but I know that hazing is wrong and intimidation is wrong. I mean, we are going to Afghanistan to fight terrorists, right? (no but for the sake of this let's say yes) Let's stop the terrorists who are in our own military first how bout.

I hate to say it and it is not the soldiers fault in any way shape or form. But I truly believe we are only there for financial gain. And the boogie man thing is just to keep us in line and give them the reason to do it.


Fear is a great motivator. Fear is the glue that binds this country together today. I sure hope I am wrong on this one.