FLT 93 The Second Debris Field

Originally posted by waypastvne

The information that came from the Flight Data Recorder is the aircrafts official story. It's very accurate and coincides perfectly with all the photographic evidence. There is nothing more official than the FDR.

Really? Then why does the FDR say the "plane" hit at 40 deg and everyone commenting on the shape of the crater says that it looks like what caused it must of hit closer to 90 deg?

If you tell me what forces those arrows represent, we'll be one step closer to looking at what was recorded in the FDR.

I don't know. Tell me.

Has anyone looked at the bottom of Indian Lake,for larger pieces of the aircraft? I would think that if their was some larger pieces,then it would be a compelling argument to where it actually broke up. Paper and smaller pieces could have landed anywhere,but larger pieces are not going to "fly" 8 miles away,MHO.

Originally posted by waypastvne

Originally posted by ATH911
Can someone explain to me how a large explosion could occur, and therefore a large mushroom cloud, by a 757 that supposedly buried so fast it didn't have a chance to burn, the ground caved back in on itself covering the hole, and the part of the plane that didn't bury was its cockpit section?

Thats what we are working towards ATH, but first you need an understanding of forces and aerodynamics. I am not going to answer the question for you, go look it up. What force does that red arrow represent. It's a very very very simple question. The answer starts with the letter T . If you don't know the answer to it, you don't have an understanding of aerodynamics. If you don't have an understanding of aerodynamics, why are you giving your opinion on airplane crashes ?

While we are at it, the energy driving the force behind the red arrow can come from what two sources ?

If my basic aircraft info is still accurate..as much as i can remember anyway...heres what the arrows represent..i could be off though..so let me know...

The red arrow represents Thrust. It can come from one of two sources...either a prop blade powered by an engine of some kind, or a rocket engine.

The yellow arrow represents drag.

The green...if the plane was right side up, would represent Weight

The blue...again..if it was right side up, would represent Lift..

Because the plane is inverted, these roles are reversed..hence the green is now Lift, and the blue is now Weight

The black is Gravity

Am I right?

Originally posted by shaolin_dragon

If my basic aircraft info is still accurate..as much as i can remember anyway...heres what the arrows represent..i could be off though..so let me know...

The red arrow represents Thrust. It can come from one of two sources...either a prop blade powered by an engine of some kind, or a rocket engine.

The yellow arrow represents drag.

The green...if the plane was right side up, would represent Weight

The blue...again..if it was right side up, would represent Lift..

Because the plane is inverted, these roles are reversed..hence the green is now Lift, and the blue is now Weight

The black is Gravity

Am I right?

Not bad,mostly right.



The red arrow represents thrust. The two sources of energy that can produce thrust are engine power and gravity. (A gliders forward motion comes only from gravity. when you point the nose of a plane down it speeds up)

The yellow arrow represents drag. The two sources of this force are aerodynamic drag (parasitic and induced) and gravity (when you point the nose of a plane up it slows down)

The blue arrow represents lift. This force comes mostly from angle of attack (angle of wing in relation to relative wind) and also from the low pressure created by the airfoil. Flt 93 was pulling .64 G's positive just prior to impact. so the wings were producing lift in the direction of the blue arrow.

The green arrow in this case represents Inertial acceleration (also known as G force, angular momentum, Centrifugal force,ect) this force is produced by a change in the angle of attack (aircraft carving a curve in the pitch axis) and was producing a force equal to 64% of the aircrafts weighting in the direction of the green arrow.

The black arrow represents gravity. This force comes from the gravitational pull of the earth, and is always directed at the earths centre of mass regardless of the aircrafts attitude. The earths gravitational pull is constant it never goes away. It can be negated by Inertial acceleration (0 G's, negative G's) but it is always there.

Next we should take a look at how the forces interact on the airframe, just prior to impact.

Thanks for answering for ATH911, I don't think he would of ever gotten it.

Originally posted by waypastvne
When a aircraft breaks up in the air the parts fluter spiral and tumble in all directions. Flt 93 was defiantly intact when it hit the ground.

How do you know this information? Have you seen a commercial jet being blown from the sky before? Is there precidence for this other than your opinion and imagination?

Also, that fighter jet that got blown from the sky was definately intact when it hit the ground also.

So, by your logic, the pilot actually dove that fighter into the ground instead of being shot down.

Originally posted by Nutter

Originally posted by waypastvne
When a aircraft breaks up in the air the parts fluter spiral and tumble in all directions. Flt 93 was defiantly intact when it hit the ground.

How do you know this information? Have you seen a commercial jet being blown from the sky before? Is there precidence for this other than your opinion and imagination?

Also, that fighter jet that got blown from the sky was definately intact when it hit the ground also.

So, by your logic, the pilot actually dove that fighter into the ground instead of being shot down.

Fighter planes are smaller dont forget! A missile strike on a fighter is going to leave a lot less debris, depending on where it was hit. An airliner is much larger. Plus the airframes behave differently when placed through serious aerodynamic stresses. A larger frame will have a greater chance of breaking up into larger pieces than a smaller frame.


There have been, I believe, very few shoot downs of airliners in history.
en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by ATH911

Originally posted by GenRadek

you are going to argue semantics about a plane crash?

The devil is in the details.

About what you said:

when an object impacts the ground at high speed it creates a crater, which helps bury some of the debris of the object.

Buries "some" debris? 80% of the "object" supposedly got buried. Love how you make it sound like only a little supposedly did.

Really? You are going to nitpick over how much of the aircraft was turned into confetti, how much got rammed and buried into the ground, and how much got scattered into the wind, in a high speed nose-dive into the ground? Really? And you even get cheerleaders giving you stars?

Geeze, ATH911, that is the sign of a desperate person that is trying to convince everyone how the sky is really red, grass is really purple, and the moon is made of cheese, no matter how crazy or stupid it sounds.

Originally posted by waypastvne

The debris traveled with the wind. If you have evidence to the contrary, produce it.

www.wunderground.com...
This is the way the wind blows, unless there is a storm. Yes, even fish have rained down on dry land, when water is picked up, There were no waterspouts or tornadoes that day. Other things from the ground did not rain down all over.

reply to post by earthdude

Other things from the ground did not rain down all over.

Uh, how would you know? I mean if the explosion carried aloft some of the soil from the impact site and deposited it down wind how would you be able to determine if the soil were native or the result of the impact?

reply to post by hooper

Just go outside and see if anything is raining down on you. Thermals seldom pick debris up like that. To think that a huge thermal coincidentaly hit the shoot down area is silly.

reply to post by earthdude


It wasn't thermals that "picked up" the debris it was a huge explosion of jet fuel that raised the material into the air and then wind currents blew the stuff around. I really don't know what so difficult to understand about this.

reply to post by hooper

You could have 1000 planes with fuel exploding and you would not get things 8 miles upwind. It is a scale thing and a physics thing.

reply to post by earthdude


First, what do you mean "upwind"? Where is that coming from? And secondly, yes you could get airborne debris 8 miles away, I don't know what's so difficult to understand about that.

reply to post by hooper


Get some explosives and try it.

Originally posted by earthdude
reply to post by hooper

 

Get some explosives and try it.

S where did you get the "upwind" from? Don't have to get explosives. Tell you what, go to the top of a say, ten story building and drop a piece of paper and see how far it lands from the building then extrapolate.

Please tell us why you made the statement that the material travelled upwind.

reply to post by hooper


Please tell us why you are trying to get us to belive the official story? I live in a world where heavy things don't magically move upwind or defy gravity.

reply to post by earthdude


Uh, what heavy things and again, where did you get that it was upwind?

Look, here is the wind direction for that day. You are grasping at straws.
www.wunderground.com...

reply to post by earthdude


Wind direction was west, meaning the wind was blowing from west to east. New Baltimore and the lake are both due southEAST of the crash site. So anything up in the air is going to move east. Now whats the heavy stuff you claim to have found?

Originally posted by earthdude
Just go outside and see if anything is raining down on you. Thermals seldom pick debris up like that. To think that a huge thermal coincidentaly hit the shoot down area is silly.

The debris that was found consisted mostly of paper and carbon cloth. Thermals pick up cloth and paper and drag them off every day and those are ordinary thermals. The mushroom cloud at Shanksville is not an ordinary thermal. A common thermal is a vertical line vortex or a mass of air that spirals around a vertical center as it rises. A mushroom cloud, on the other hand, is a toroidal vortex, or vortex ring, it rises up like smoke ring, and it is much more efficient at capturing, and containing foreign objects, than a vertical vortex.

The ascent rate of the mushroom cloud would also be faster than your every day thermal. Air rises because of the temperature difference between it and the ambient air. A few thousand gallons of jet fuel being ignited would tend to make this temperature difference a little greater than normal, giving it a faster than normal ascent rate.

The reason debris remains airborne is because it's in air that is going up faster than it is falling. A piece of paper falls at around 100 ft per min. the average thermal is around 300 to 400 ft per min. a really good thermal is around 1000 ft per min. The mushroom cloud would have had an ascent rate of over 2000 ft per min. There is nothing impossible or even unusual about the downwind debris at Shanksville.

This video was filmed 1.9 miles away from the impact point. That's the same distance as Indian Lake. Watch it to the end (after 1:40). You will see paper falling all around her and more at altitude continuing on down wind.