Jeffrey Dahmer is in heaven right now and you could be too!!!

reply to post by bogomil


Removed double post

Originally posted by bogomil

Originally posted by newcovenant
reply to post by Josonic

 

I have publicly denounced God, specifically Christianity's God many times.

If there isn't something there, what are you denouncing?
Can't you just walk away?

Put this back in the bag of debate-tricks, where it belongs.

Debate tricks.

Denouncing God many times. This you do, not for yourself (otherwise you lie) but for your friends and to prove a point, the point being; "...you people tried to trick me into a "belief" and I am having none if it."
Also ...without proof.
To go to the trouble of publicly denouncing God is a false and hypocritical inconsistency.
What are you trying to prove? That 80-90 percent of the humans who ever lived on earth are not only wrong but they are lying to you?

Otherwise why publicity denounce God?
I mean if you are certain there is no God to denounce, why the fan fare?

If this is a debate trick my friend, it is a good one.
Called, "establishing a basis for your claim."

And to say "There is no God" is quite a different statement than "I have denounced God many times."

You may not see it since your spiritual side is not activated and lies as helpless as a seed on concrete.
Hoping someone you trust comes along and waters you one day.

Second, all sin is the same. Lying premarital sex, homosexuality, murder. Sin = Sin. There is no greater or lesser sin.

reply to post by sonofliberty1776


Really now? let me ask you this? Lets say your sons..if you have any ..had been victims of this man...and please try and feel what you may have felt finding out your sons had had holes drilled in their head..while alive..while some crazed person had sex with that hole?

Would you really be willing to say..his sin is the same as the kid next door stealing 10 bucks from his dads wallet?

Would you be willing to say you would greet him with christian love in heaven? Put yourself in the shoes of these victims families .. and try to understand the horror of these actions.

To say all sin is the same in the eyes of God.. will only make people reject God further.

God does grade on a curve. His curve is whether or not we believe his existence.

reply to post by Josonic



WOW..so your saying God doesn't see dahlmer as any more evil than the adulteress wife?

Instead He judges more on whether people believe in him or not?

Do you realize how egotistical and unfair that sounds?

Do you realize why many can't follow christianity because of that crazy logic?

Yep..God cares more about people believing in him..than he does about boys getting tortured raped and sodomized...doesn't say a lot for God..does it?

reply to post by newcovenant


You wrote:

["Debate tricks.

Denouncing God many times. This you do, not for yourself (otherwise you lie) but for your friends and to prove a point, the point being;...."]

I'm afraid you don't understand, what I'm referring to. What I called a 'debate trick' was, that you feel that only christians are entitled to have opinions on christianity. Both from a debate-forum and general social perspective this is your way of trying to introduce a kind if censorship on this thread. An authority you don't have.

Quote: ["To go to the trouble of publicly denouncing God is a false and hypocritical inconsistency."]

Why?

Quote: ["What are you trying to prove?"]

That intellectual honesty is very important.

Quote: ["That 80-90 percent of the humans who ever lived on earth are not only wrong but they are lying to you?"]

As you haven't defined what these 80-90% aren't wrong about, I can't relate to this.

Quote: ["Otherwise why publicity denounce God?"]

Has this something to do with those 80-90% ?

Quote: ["I mean if you are certain there is no God to denounce, why the fan fare?"]

You are not familiar with what's commongly used in these debates, known as 'agnostic' or 'gnostic' positions. If you like, I can explain it, it's rather simple and a kind of 'must'.

Quote: ["If this is a debate trick my friend, it is a good one. Called, "establishing a basis for your claim."]

I'm a great believer in establishing bases. Though I prefer them to be sound.

Quote: [" And to say "There is no God" is quite a different statement than "I have denounced God many times."]

I agree. And.....?

Quote: [" You may not see it since your spiritual side is not activated and lies as helpless as a seed on concrete."]

And on what information is this conclusion based? That I don't agree with you....that only YOUR way is valid?

Originally posted by pstrron
reply to post by bogomil

 

Might I suggest that you read the book, if you have not done so yet, so that you may get an understanding from where C.S. Lewis is coming from with his statement. You can either take the words of Jesus at face value or you can reject them. No one is saying that you have to agree with C.S. Lewis and his statement, Jesus or the things that Jesus said, let alone my point of view. It's your call.

That's about what you said before, and I understood it the first time.

The problem here is, that I see more optional answers, than those you offer as the only possibilities. That's called a double-bind and is just a semantic maneuver.

Who cares about heaven?

God is with us, in us, all the time. You just need to find his consciousness, the light in your separated soul.
The heaven we know is just a lie, an illusion, a prison.

There is no hell, there is no heaven. They are just adjectives of our perception.
See beyond the image!

Yeah, you know his heart when he confessed.. Can you honestly say that you don't battle with the idea of a creator? Are you so solid with the idea that everything is a cosmic accident? Now, that's faith.

Originally posted by User8911
Who cares about heaven?

God is with us, in us, all the time. You just need to find his consciousness, the light in your separated soul.
The heaven we know is just a lie, an illusion, a prison.

There is no hell, there is no heaven. They are just adjectives of our perception.
See beyond the image!

You sound just like the religious zealots who spout off their truth like they have an inside connection to truth.

Who are you to try and teach us what TRUTH is? Can you give us some PROOF?

reply to post by pstrron


Again, if that is all it takes, wow. What an easy get out of jail card. You guys have the ace of spades there. You know, upon reflection, murdering and raping all those people was wrong. I'm sorry. Forgiven? Cool. Thanks.
Heaven must be great! Lots and lots of rapists murderers who were sorry.

CJ

reply to post by bogomil


Yeah...ok.
Tell the truth, it's too hard to make out your post since you've included a lot of what Ive written in there although I might have guessed what you were responding to if you just gave the response. I am a little dyslexic and so it is hard to get through and really doesn't matter enough for me to refute. I quit proselytizing years ago. I agree with Anthony Hopkins however....that CERTAINTY is the real enemy of man. It is not any one religion. It is not the absence of religion.

It is being so sure you are so correct in your belief, whatever it is, that you will bother, ridicule, slander and even kill another person because you believe what you believe so fervently.
I have to say, I agree with that.
CERTAINTY, in matters where there can be none, is the enemy of intelligent evolution and mankind.

New arti-facts are being unearthed every day to reveal a very complicated history of mans life on Earth.

In spite of the many archeological finds, supporting and conflicting evidence provided in the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Vedas, from the Egyptians, the Sumerians and including the theories of Darwin....correct me if I am wrong, where we came from and why has not been answered.

I know we are not alone. That's all I can say for sure and all anyone can say for certain, but still...people can have a feeling of spirituality or connectedness to a source, and they can pick this up in others... or not.

Originally posted by gabby2011
You sound just like the religious zealots who spout off their truth like they have an inside connection to truth.

Who are you to try and teach us what TRUTH is? Can you give us some PROOF?

Since I have no proof, I would have to call it faith. Everything that has to do with what happens to us after death is impossible to prove. But I don't believe in heaven, I don't believe in A god.

All we have been taught is to take us away from God.
To think God is outside, to think God is someone you pray to, to think that God lets things happen, to think we need to behave because of God...it's all to take us further away from the light that is within us that we all share the same connection, the same origin...which could be defined has God but is more a universal conscientiousness.

Although, I can't say praying isn't a good thing ! It does probably helps us inside, but I don't believe we should pray to God has in a person. Pray to life, love, peace, nature, yourself, the universe...

I doubt I'm the best to explain in what I believe in...
It's fine if you don't apply to this faith.

But that's what I believe.

Since I have no proof, I would have to call it faith. Everything that has to do with what happens to us after death is impossible to prove. But I don't believe in heaven, I don't believe in A god.

reply to post by User8911


Thats fair enough..you have faith that this is how things work....and I can respect your choice to do so. But to put down others "faith" and say with such certainty there is no heaven or hell.. comes off like you have the answers and they don't.

It is simply what you believe.. and it is simply what they believe...all based on faith..though it does seem that Jesus walking the earth and preaching..is based more on fact than some other concepts.

Unless of course he never existed..and was all made up.. which I think is unlikely. What he preached could very likely have been misinterpreted over the years though.

Once again..i respect your views..and your right to have them..but be careful that you don't come across as all knowing ..which is probably what irks you about other types of beliefs.

reply to post by newcovenant


You wrote:

["It is being so sure you are so correct in your belief, whatever it is, that you will bother, ridicule, slander and even kill another person because you believe what you believe so fervently.
I have to say, I agree with that."]

My 'public' beliefs are rather few and simple. And if the above refers to me, I haven't killed anyone to the best of my knowledge.

Quote: ["CERTAINTY, in matters where there can be none, is the enemy of intelligent evolution and mankind."]

Which is why I'm a philosophical scepticist, and an opponent of religious 'absolutes'.

Quote: ["New arti-facts are being unearthed every day to reveal a very complicated history of mans life on Earth.

In spite of the many archeological finds, supporting and conflicting evidence provided in the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Vedas, from the Egyptians, the Sumerians and including the theories of Darwin....correct me if I am wrong, where we came from and why has not been answered."]

If you're trying to derail this thread into creationsm in a biological perspective, I'm not your man. My competence lies with physics, philosophy of science and epistemology (on that subject).

Quote: ["I know we are not alone. That's all I can say for sure and all anyone can say for certain, but still...people can have a feeling of spirituality or connectedness to a source, and they can pick this up in others... or not."]

No worries. I'm not trying to interfere with what you privately believe in, that's your business. But this is a public forum, where it's important to make it clear, if you offer an opinion or push it.

reply to post by Ittabena

Jeffrey Dahmer? All because he was born again in prison? C'mon!!!!

You say that as if it was insignificant.
You don't know how many people will be saved by his testimony and witness.
Jeffrey died to save others by going to church when he knew he was putting his life in danger for doing so.
Would you?
If you knew that between your house and church, there were thugs waiting for you to beat you to death?
I doubt that attendance would be very high if all professing Christians faced the same prospect that he did.

reply to post by jmdewey60


What? He died because he was murdered by people who saw the need to kill a mass murderer. Had 0 to do with him going to church. Amazing how religious people can claim a guy like Dalhmer is in heaven. Somehow, actually, it makes sense. We LOVE mass murderers because they said sowwy. I'm sorry, this really is silly. Heaven must be filled with murderers and rapists - sounds like quite the party.

CJ

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Ittabena

 

Jeffrey Dahmer? All because he was born again in prison? C'mon!!!!

You say that as if it was insignificant.
You don't know how many people will be saved by his testimony and witness.
Jeffrey died to save others by going to church when he knew he was putting his life in danger for doing so.
Would you?
If you knew that between your house and church, there were thugs waiting for you to beat you to death?
I doubt that attendance would be very high if all professing Christians faced the same prospect that he did.

GOOD GRIEF !! Now you are trying to paint him as a hero cause he dared walk to church when he knew there were some out to kill him? They would have been out for him had he been walking to the grocery store. EVERYWHERE was dangerous for him..

People don't get saved by testimonies and witnessing from my understanding of Christianity..they get saved by the Holy Spirit.

Dahlmer knew he was an evil person..and continued to be evil until he got caught..had he not been caught..he would still be doing his evil..and highly unlikely he would be walking to church repenting.

reply to post by bogomil

You wrote: ["It is being so sure you are so correct in your belief, whatever it is, that you will bother, ridicule, slander and even kill another person because you believe what you believe so fervently. I have to say, I agree with that."] My 'public' beliefs are rather few and simple. And if the above refers to me, I haven't killed anyone to the best of my knowledge.

That is good. You by omission, admit to bother ridicule and slander. That is good too since I was beginning to think it was my imagination. And I don't think it matters the limited number of certainties one has. It is claiming to know what is unknowable. I am most decidedly not stating a case for creationism, nor a strict Darwinian theory of evolution. I would like you to learn the quote function. That is all I might try to push upon you my wise and accomplished friend.

Originally posted by gabby2011
Once again..i respect your views..and your right to have them..but be careful that you don't come across as all knowing ..which is probably what irks you about other types of beliefs.

edit on 1-9-2011 by gabby2011 because: (no reason given)

You know your right, saying it like I said does make me seem like I don't respect others beliefs...
I am sorry, because seriously, Unless it affect the liberty of others faith is not to disregard, or to justify has false.

Even if some beliefs are made to false, they are not really false because just by thinking about something, makes it part of the universe.

From what I believe, I could say heaven might exist for the people who want to believe it, even if it would be just an illusion, just the combined thoughts or believers might have created this place called heaven.
But also, from what I believe, if that heaven exists, it's just a distraction to what can really be accomplished by the soul. Physical death is part of this known life, not the end of the soul, nor a rest.

I am sorry again if I sounded all knowing!! ^^