Football Players Penalized for pointing towards Heaven.

Originally posted by Tarzan the apeman.
reply to post by Annee

 

You either believe there is a god or believe there is not.

What if you are a TAP agnostic?

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by Annee

 

That's BS and you know it. Emotion is a part of the game. So is teamwork and loyalty. If someone wants to show respect to their God, or their fallen brethren, it is perfectly fine. The rule is there to prevent "excessive celebration," but not to stop a simple gesture.

Not to me. I don't agree with you.

It costs a lot of money to go to any professional sport these days. As a paying customer - - I do not want anyone's personal belief displayed.

I can understand where you are coming from, but this is not a Professional game where people are being paid money or people are paying to attend. It is high school football. These are students, not professional players. I have never seen a high school charge people to attend games.

This is just another example of the atheist elite forcibly removing all religious references from our society. And while many people defend it, those vocal people are in the vast minority.

Wait til the bullets star flying when TSHTF, we'll SEE who starts finding God.

If I were one of those players, I would do this every time my team scored from now on.

reply to post by AwakeinNM


LOL... You must love those athletes that thank God after their win. So god decides who gets the win? I didn't even realize he even liked sports...

Originally posted by MrWendal

I can understand where you are coming from, but this is not a Professional game where people are being paid money or people are paying to attend. It is high school football. These are students, not professional players. I have never seen a high school charge people to attend games.

It was just a point of argument in general. Every discussion needs a variety of viewpoints High schools may actually have stricter rules then professional sports. But - yes you are correct that admission to high school football games are probably not excessive. And that particular point does not fit this exact incident.
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But let's go to fact:

1. On Wednesday, the OHSAA responded to the criticism on Twitter. “OHSAA is sorry to hear about a tragic death, but how could the officials have known gesture was honoring a friend?”

2. The assistant commissioner for the Ohio High School Athletic Association said the penalty was appropriate under the rules. Henry Zaborniak said that any prolonged gesture by a player "that draws attention to himself is a foul." (incidentally - comments on one article called Zaborniak an Atheist).

3. Without knowing the context of the gesture, it could be considered offensive to the other team even though it was not intended that way, Zaborniak said.

4. A grandparent of a Louisville player was among the fans who believe officials should have made an exception under the circumstances. It was just "a simple gesture to Heaven," Ann Miller said.

---------------------------------------------------

So WHY? Why is this minor - insignificant - little story - - - all over the internet?

Originally posted by blackrain17

Originally posted by Tarzan the apeman.
reply to post by Annee

 

You either believe there is a god or believe there is not.

What if you are a TAP agnostic?

I'm not.

My 60 year search for truth - - is solid.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by Annee

 

That's BS and you know it. Emotion is a part of the game. So is teamwork and loyalty. If someone wants to show respect to their God, or their fallen brethren, it is perfectly fine. The rule is there to prevent "excessive celebration," but not to stop a simple gesture.

Not to me. I don't agree with you.

It costs a lot of money to go to any professional sport these days. As a paying customer - - I do not want anyone's personal belief displayed.

So, no more signs in support for your team? No cheering for your side? All because it involves showing personal belief?

Well, I personally believe my team should win....

If you were in charge, there would be no sports left!

Originally posted by buster2010

Originally posted by The Old American
This is just yet more Progressive, leftist hatred toward self-expression and equal protection by the 1st Amendment. The 1st Amendment is really inconvenient for them. They like to tout it and claim that everyone is equal, but the hate spews out when anyone tries to express an opinion counter to theirs. Then up pops a new law to abridge our freedoms and liberties. It's really quite pathetic, but revealing all the same.

/TOA

edit on 31-8-2011 by The Old American because: (no reason given)

So your against the founding fathers on this one huh? You know the wall of separation between church and state? Every cries the left is taking our rights away and forgets all about the patriot act that was forced on us by the GOP. And everyone remembers how law abiding the last GOP was.

Wow, there's wrong and then there's this.

The founding fathers included an Amendment to the Constitution, the 1st Amendment, that prohibits Congress from enacting any law either recognizing religion, thus giving it special favor or creating a national religion, nor can they abridge the free expression thereof. Abridge means "censor". The "wall of separation" mentioned by Jefferson was mentioned in personal writings and were opinions, not legal precedent.

Even though all of his other teammates were celebrating, this one kid gets popped for pointing his finger in the sky, giving his dead friend a shout out and he's the one that gets penalized. Sorry, but he was singled out. There were no laws being created here, but there sure was an abridgement of his freedom of expression.

And you really shouldn't have mentioned the Patriot Act. You know, that same Patriot Act that our Democratic president and our Democratically controlled Senate had a chance to kill, but decided to continue abridging our freedom of speech, expression, property rights, freedom of travel, etc.

/TOA

Originally posted by Tarzan the apeman.
reply to post by Annee

 

You either believe there is a god or believe there is not.

NO.

To believe there is not a god - - - first requires belief to reject belief.

Lack of existence of a god - - is just a void.

Fine line? Maybe.

Originally posted by Annee
It has been a rule for quite sometime. All players are aware of it.

Fans pay to see a game played. They do not pay to witness God.

When i go to a game I do not go there to have crack exposed by the big fat guy in front of me that is offensive and gross.

When i go to a game i do not go there to watch people get drunk and act like fools in front of my child.

When I go to a ball game I do not go there to hear people curse when their team is down.

When I go to ball games I do not go there to watch players get penalized for pointing to the sky.

and if you tell me not to go then all those who are offended by people pointing to the sky should not go either.

All this toro ca ca with kicking GOD out of everything is out of hand. If someone doesn't like it tough crap. There are tons of things i don't like and I have to put up with it. many of those things are not related to religion but it seems it is more acceptable to act like an a$$ Hat than to make references to God. Someone acting like a jackass is more likely to hurt you than a guy pointing at the sky to GOD... but apparently I am wrong.

Originally posted by yaluk

All this toro ca ca with kicking GOD out of everything is out of hand. If someone doesn't like it tough crap. There are tons of things i don't like and I have to put up with it. many of those things are not related to religion but it seems it is more acceptable to act like an a$$ Hat than to make references to God. Someone acting like a jackass is more likely to hurt you than a guy pointing at the sky to GOD... but apparently I am wrong.

OK.

But - you know if one of these players made reference to Atheism - - - this would be a whole different discussion.

reply to post by Annee


I think the Refs would obviously accept anything atheist because they just penalized a team for pointing towards the sky.

It is acceptable. It was apparent the Ref was practicing an Atheist ritual in downgrading someone's belief with a 15 yard penalty.

You really are backed into a corner. What can you do?



Also, for the record, I have nothing against Atheist people or their beliefs. I believe people are allowed to abide by whatever they feel they need to abide by.

Originally posted by NebulaZero
reply to post by Annee

 

I think the Refs would obviously accept anything atheist because they just penalized a team for pointing towards the sky.

Could we please have realistic discussion?

Dear OP,
What an interesting subject. I had truly thought that political and religious correctness had reached it's limits, I was wrong. What irks me is that noone actually cares about the individuals rights now, what about the poor footballer's rights to point towards heaven?

This by Getreadyalready is priceless:

Originally posted by getreadyalready
By the way, I am offended by sensitive people, how the hell do you suppose we get rid of all those so that I may live in peace?

Hat off to you GetReady!

T

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by JoeGuitar
reply to post by traditionaldrummer

 

I agree with your assessment there, but I wonder what your position is on this particular topic (if I missed it earlier, I'm sorry). I find it utterly ridiculous that such a gesture from a high school kid could possibly affect people in that way. Do other people's actions hold that much power in some minds?

I'm going to ask you.

Why is this news? What is the real reason this minor event is all over the internet - - - even becoming a discussion on ATS.

I certainly didn't make it an issue. I'm commenting on it - - - but I did not make it an issue.

I also find it utterly ridiculous that a minor 2 or 3 second gesture is being blown up all over the internet.

So why is it? Be honest.

The reasons it is news are very complex. The bottom line, though, is that the media knows that it will stir passion on both sides of the debate, thereby creating more viewers/web traffic/ad revenue. What are you implying?

You are commenting on the story so that means that you have a reaction. I'm not saying you are making it an issue initially, but you are perpetuating a worldview that confounds me. Why on earth would you feel that pointing to the sky is shoving a god down their throat? That would be akin to me seeing a Sikh with a Pagri on claiming that (s)he is trying to shove their beliefs down my throat (or worse, me thinking that they were a Muslim terrorist ). How is your reaction to the story any different?

Originally posted by JoeGuitar
The reasons it is news are very complex. The bottom line, though, is that the media knows that it will stir passion on both sides of the debate, thereby creating more viewers/web traffic/ad revenue. What are you implying?

I don't find it complex at all. I do agree it is fueled by emotion. I don't think it would have made the news if god wasn't slighted.

You are commenting on the story so that means that you have a reaction.

I comment on social issues because I am raising a 3 year old. Opinions don't require research - backups - and proof links.

I'm not saying you are making it an issue initially, but you are perpetuating a worldview that confounds me. Why on earth would you feel that pointing to the sky is shoving a god down their throat?

Its a point of view for varied discussion.

Being 65 and coming from an era where god was forced in public school - I am sensitive to it. I am not saying pointing to the sky (heaven) in itself is wrong. But - passion for this gesture (and god) - - - is what is fueling the uproar IMO. Should breaking an established rule be excused for passion for god?

reply to post by Annee

I don't find it complex at all. I do agree it is fueled by emotion. I don't think it would have made the news if god wasn't slighted.

It wouldn't have made the news if it hadn't impacted the game. The outcome of the game was changed because of this penalty.

And once again, we have no idea of knowing if the referee gave any thought to whether or not the gesture was religious. In all likelihood, it was only an issue of the referee being overzealous in calling the "excessive celebration" penalty. (ETA: re-reading this sentence, I realized the irony in being "overzealous" in calling an "excessive celebration" penalty. )

Yes, the family seems to have assumed it had something to do with religion, so now we are all running with that false assumption and debating the place of religion in society, based off a faulty assumption after a bad call in a small-town highschool football game?

What does this say about us?

reply to post by Annee


I disagree....it would have made news for many different reasons, not just because someone's god was "slighted". The point here is that I disagree with the ruling on the field and the subsequent statements by OHSAA and the NFHS regarding excessive celebration. The rule states that a player can not "bring attention to himself". I watched the video over and over again, and I can not possibly see where he was operating outside of this parameter.

I would feel the same way if the player was displaying his atheism, Judaism, or any other form of self expression that is within the scope of pointing to the air. This is a personal freedom issue, not the god vs. no god issue that you seem to be trying to make it out to be.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
It wouldn't have made the news if it hadn't impacted the game. The outcome of the game was changed because of this penalty.

Maybe - maybe not - - that a penalty was called for excessive celebration by pointing to the sky - - would not have made the news whether it affected the outcome of the game or not.

I do find it an interesting phenomenon - - - those trying to make "pointing to heaven" - - about anything other then "pointing to heaven".

Yes - some hold up a single digit to reference #1. But when exactly is that done? Usually when they win a championship or season final. I don't believe that was the case here.

At least be honest and admit these two boys were pointing to heaven to acknowledge their friend that died.

Originally posted by JoeGuitar
reply to post by Annee

 

I disagree....it would have made news for many different reasons, not just because someone's god was "slighted". The point here is that I disagree with the ruling on the field and the subsequent statements by OHSAA and the NFHS regarding excessive celebration. The rule states that a player can not "bring attention to himself". I watched the video over and over again, and I can not possibly see where he was operating outside of this parameter.

Like I've said - - I did not make the rule. I did not make the call. I am not the one making this an issue. I am simply commenting on a news story - - - that I believe would not have "exploded" all over the internet - - if it weren't for the back story and god slighted. Which may or may not have made the news whether it affected the outcome of the game or not.

Who exactly is fueling this story? I haven't read any comments from the two boys. Which is good - - because it is not their position to argue rulings.

I would feel the same way if the player was displaying his atheism, Judaism, or any other form of self expression that is within the scope of pointing to the air. This is a personal freedom issue, not the god vs. no god issue that you seem to be trying to make it out to be.

I'm sorry - - - but I do not believe you or the majority of people would feel the same way if it was somehow an Atheist gesture.

Let's be real.