Galileo got it wrong: Catholics

Interestingly, there are still people that believe the earth is flat and has 4 corners! The Flat Earth Society

Samuel Rowbotham's Flat Earth views were based largely on literal interpretation of Bible passages. His system, called Zetetic Astronomy, held that the earth is a flat disk centered at the North Pole and bounded along its southern edge by a wall of ice, with the sun, moon, planets, and stars only a few hundred miles above the surface of the earth.

More about them from BBC News
An entry in Wikipedia about them

Flat Earth Society claimed that Newfoundland and Labrador was one of the four corners of the world.

Religious zealots admit they prefer a literal interpretation of the bible. Be it willful ignorance or avid belief, the fact is these people are blind to fundamental truths in the name of religion. Faith is believing in something unseen, however when belief is in direct contradiction to facts and proof is purposefully ignored therein lies a bigger problem. Rather than waking up, these people are eating up biased opinions and propagating ideas taken at face value... thereby literally turning a blind eye to reality.

Whatever their reason, I think religion is an excuse given to an underlying and much bigger problem. I can't understand why people want to believe a lie.

Originally posted by NeverForget
reply to post by redoubt

 

Yes, lying is human nature but, more to the point, lying presumes intent to deceive. People can believe an untruth and speak it without lying. They may be wrong... but they are genuine.

If it someday turned out the earth was the center of the universe, you would not have lied in stating otherise. It was merely a mistake (like my typos lol) and we are not perfect. Not a single one of us.

High-school level physics will show us that the milky way is NOT the centre of the universe, likewise, we won't later find out that the Earth is infact a cuboid, rather than an oblate spherooid.

Lying may be a human characteristic; but the fact we formed language and a civilisation shows that we are a trustworthy species; if the majority lied it would render language/communication utterly useless.

I'm not arguing the blueprint of the universe. I am simply saying that people have the right to believe as they choose and each as they choose believes they are right.

Most people call it tolerance.

beyond all that, as a species... we are not nearly as smart as we like to think we are. Someday, by the hand of God or ET or even our own stupidity, this will become a major headline. But for now, we're content to carry out our own little personal inquisitions, lording what we hold to be the truth of the universe over all those who dare oppose us.

Again, human nature, imperfection and a dash or arrogance probably describes us better than the human genome.

Originally posted by NeverForget
reply to post by redoubt

 

Yes, lying is human nature but, more to the point, lying presumes intent to deceive. People can believe an untruth and speak it without lying. They may be wrong... but they are genuine.

If it someday turned out the earth was the center of the universe, you would not have lied in stating otherise. It was merely a mistake (like my typos lol) and we are not perfect. Not a single one of us.

High-school level physics will show us that the milky way is NOT the centre of the universe, likewise, we won't later find out that the Earth is infact a cuboid, rather than an oblate spherooid.

Lying may be a human characteristic; but the fact we formed language and a civilisation shows that we are a trustworthy species; if the majority lied it would render language/communication utterly useless.

Okay, so what is the center of the universe? I never learned this in high school or in freshman physics in university. All I learned is this is the interpretation most scientists agree upon. Until I have learned the mathematics to successfully interpret the theory of the big bang, I don't think I should follow popular fashion and declare it in my head to be absolute truth.

I think we both learned something today

actually, no... no... Wait.

Dammit, I think they are on to something.

The damn theory of relativity!

Holy Crap! By our own scientific understanding of design they are actually right!

reply to post by 547000

Okay, so what is the center of the universe?

I see, your point, I can only answer with the analsysis of the blueshift theorem (universal expansion) And the fact we can look back into time, and with greater telescopes, even further, towards the beginning of the universe.

I can't answer what the centre is. But why would Earth be, out of all the planets, and solar systems?

And our universe could exist in a macro-cell with many other universes within, perhaps infinity as a concept is beyond our imagination, we desire absolutes.

reply to post by redoubt

I'm not arguing the blueprint of the universe. I am simply saying that people have the right to believe as they choose and each as they choose believes they are right.

I'm all for freedom of expression and freedom of speech. I support that freedom, I think it's important to fight for each other's freedom, even if they have opposing beliefs. That's tolerance.

People are free to choose what beliefs they have, but this isn't a society, this is a forum where people are debating back and forth, people are perfectly welcome to oppose what i belief (or don't believe)

So don't play the "you're not tolerant" game with me. Thanks.

Originally posted by NeverForget
reply to post by redoubt

 

I'm not arguing the blueprint of the universe. I am simply saying that people have the right to believe as they choose and each as they choose believes they are right.

I'm all for freedom of expression and freedom of speech. I support that freedom, I think it's important to fight for each other's freedom, even if they have opposing beliefs. That's tolerance.

People are free to choose what beliefs they have, but this isn't a society, this is a forum where people are debating back and forth, people are perfectly welcome to oppose what i belief (or don't believe)

So don't play the "you're not tolerant" game with me. Thanks.

edit on 29/8/2011 by NeverForget because: (no reason given)

Wow, you mean it's okay to be intolerant of tolerance?

Who knew? My bad, for sure, lol!

I never said anyone was not tolerant. I merely pointed out one possible use for the word.

No need to get all worked up

Originally posted by NeverForget
reply to post by 547000

 

Okay, so what is the center of the universe?

I see, your point, I can only answer with the analsysis of the blueshift theorem (universal expansion) And the fact we can look back into time, and with greater telescopes, even further, towards the beginning of the universe.

I can't answer what the centre is. But why would Earth be, out of all the planets, and solar systems?

And our universe could exist in a macro-cell with many other universes within, perhaps infinity as a concept is beyond our imagination, we desire absolutes.

en.wikipedia.org...

I prefer the pure deductive reasoning of mathematics over science. Anyway my point is we shouldn't parrot everything but see evidence for ourselves, otherwise we're hypocrites for pretending we don't take things on faith.

reply to post by 547000


Point taken.

Most of us are too stupid to be atheists...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by 547000

... we shouldn't parrot everything but see evidence for ourselves, otherwise we're hypocrites for pretending we don't take things on faith.

Well said.

But... we are rarely in a position to dive into the depths of science as those with the training and equipment. The layman is left pretty much with acceptance/faith in their integrity and abilities or not.

It can be a tough choice at times, especially on some of the more gummy subjects discussed on this site.

Originally posted by redoubt

Originally posted by NeverForget
reply to post by redoubt

 

I'm not arguing the blueprint of the universe. I am simply saying that people have the right to believe as they choose and each as they choose believes they are right.

I'm all for freedom of expression and freedom of speech. I support that freedom, I think it's important to fight for each other's freedom, even if they have opposing beliefs. That's tolerance.

People are free to choose what beliefs they have, but this isn't a society, this is a forum where people are debating back and forth, people are perfectly welcome to oppose what i belief (or don't believe)

So don't play the "you're not tolerant" game with me. Thanks.

edit on 29/8/2011 by NeverForget because: (no reason given)

Wow, you mean it's okay to be intolerant of tolerance?

Who knew? My bad, for sure, lol!

I never said anyone was not tolerant. I merely pointed out one possible use for the word.

No need to get all worked up

I'm not worked up.

Of course, In some circumstances we should be intolerant of the intolerant; Nazi germany is one good example.

There are many Secular orgnisations who do not tolerate, and fight against religious discrimination, and in many cases fight for a particular religions right to freedom.

Your constitution (if you are American) allows freedom of religious choice, and freedom FROM religion. This prevents faschist religious favourism like we have in Iran, and also prevents goverment agents gaining support via religious preaching.

I'm very much jelous, as I live under a Monarchy, the prime objective being to "withold the faith".

Well, I'm currently self-studying to get the equivalence of a bachelor's in physics and pure math, so I can go to grad school. The current degree I'm taking is not rigorous and I cannot change it.

The lay-person can learn these things. They just need to have the drive to learn it.

Originally posted by Chadwickus
reply to post by 547000

 

Point taken.

Most of us are too stupid to be atheists...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Good link. That's close to my point. What most people know is pop-science, which is BS.

Originally posted by Kryties

"False information leads to false ideas, and false ideas lead to illicit and immoral actions - thus the state of the world today," Mr Sungenis told The Tribune.
"

I'd like to turnthis around on him.

False information leads to false ideas, and false ideas lead to illicit and immoral actions - thus the state of the Catholic church today!

He is using a clever(?) tactic of leading with a truth to garner your agreement with hum subconciously, then following with the message he is trying to make you beleive. This is very much like NLP, but very clumsily done.

Nice try Sungie! LOL

reply to post by NeverForget

Of course, In some circumstances we should be intolerant of the intolerant; Nazi germany is one good example. There are many Secular orgnisations who do not tolerate, and fight against religious discrimination, and in many cases fight for a particular religions right to freedom. Your constitution (if you are American) allows freedom of religious choice, and freedom FROM religion. This prevents faschist religious favourism like we have in Iran, and also prevents goverment agents gaining support via religious preaching. I'm very much jelous, as I live under a Monarchy, the prime objective being to "withold the faith".

There is good and bad in every human thing and every one. Our challenge is to sift it all and make the best choices we can. We won't always be right and for damn sure, we'll never all agree. That's where the tolerance thing plays in because if we lack that virtue, we are in a world of trouble because we will almost always get back out of life what we invest into it.

And then there is common sense, too. Your ref to the Nazis is a good example. We must know where to draw the line so that we recognize that we can't tolerate the intolerable.

I can't really address your views on monarchy and shouldn't delve into my own here as it would be way off topic for more than passing mention. But I have enjoyed this thread. It debated the subject well and to this point, did so with civility.

Thanks for your time and thoughts

reply to post by redoubt


You too.

Apologies, it was my mindunderstanding of pragmatics; I assumed accusations of irrational intolerance towards having a belief that I didn't agree with (I assure you that isn't the case)

I didn't intend to come across as vexed with your thoughts.

Thanks for sharing.

Peace and civility.

P.S

I can't really address your views on monarchy and shouldn't delve into my own here as it would be way off topic for more than passing mention

No issues It would set me off on a rant! and I don't want to further derail the thread.

Thanks again.

reply to post by Kryties


So a few nutballs calling themselves Catholic still believe in a geocentric universe, so what? The Pope and the Catholic establishment know the earth is not the center of the universe and neither is the sun. Catholics are even ok with evolution after seeing the evidence is essentially irrefutable. They still maintain God may have provided the spark that set it all in motion and evolution is his way of filling the planet. The Vatican has many capable and learned scientists on it's payroll.

I'm seriously thankful that a few intelligent humans existed and left behind some solid facts for us to invoke further discussion and examinations so that we didn't simply go with the laziest most lethargic logic possible like these religious people use.

What will it take to get everyone on board with the FACTS? and not based on some weird faith that makes no sense.

If scientists aren't certain how large the universe is, how can they know where the center is?

This is the thing that has always embuggered any chance I ever had of being converted to catholicism (note the use of the small case letter. Its not a typo,they just dont deserve a capital letter).

Jesus's messege , his meaning, his intent was to FREE people from stricture, to show people faith without dogma, compassion without egotism, to make faith in God dependant on the direction of the individual in life, rather than dictated by attendance to a perverted temple, or mindless following of laws written by men, rather than concocted by the mind of the almighty.

Jesus, unlike many who came after him , and claimed to be of faith, was here on Earth to demonstrate the use of truth. He saw sickness, and he healed. He saw sorrow, and lifted the spirits of the mourning, and of the downtrodden. He saw reality for what it was, and got in amongst the lepers and the diseased, and the "great unwashed" without even flinching, because he saw what was wrong with society and wanted no part in allowing troubles to go unaided.

Wether you believe he was the son of God like I do, or not, you have to admit, pretty stand up guy.

Then you have some stuff shirt , pompous, self worshiping dictators, taking his word, perverting it, and making up rules that Jesus would have been physicaly sickened by , in order to take power from people, and convert it into personal wealth, military power, control over huge swathes of the Earth.

That is ALL that catholicism is. It is perhaps the most Anti Christian organisation ever devised. Let me let everyone in on a couple of things.

First... Jesus would NOT have wanted there to be a pope, or for that matter any other conduit between himself and his people. He expressly stated that the only way to God, to Heaven, was through HIM, not through some badly dressed , overweight, aged liar of a politician.

Jesus would not ever have allowed the spanish inquisition to occur, nor any of the religious wars started in his name. Those who believe he would, are the ones who will find themselves seeking in vain a ticket tout in the queue to enter heaven.

Lastly, it could be said that any man woman or child who believes in God and Jesus Christ, by the words in the good book at least , are saved, or "Saints" . However, just a pointer to the catholic faith here...if you are going to build a church and fill it with gold, velvet, expensive architecture, ICONOGRAPHY ( I mean its like they never read the Bible or something ! ) AND dare to collect money for the church on top of that, at least name your damned fallacies , sorry ,I meant your perverted idea of churches , after the Biblical saints, rather than some bunch of dorks, who frankly were probably an awful lot less holy than your average bar room, and had less moral fiber than Ted Bundy (you can get me to use a capital letter for Mr Bundy , an awful lot easier than you can get me to use one for a bunch of blaspheming hipocrites).

The idea that the catholic church , or any member there of, has any business telling anyone what to believe nowadays is frankly hilarious. Let me lay it on the line for these conservative dipsticks... You have no credibility. The clue is in the name... ROMAN catholic church. Rome used to sanction the murder of Christians in thier thousands, very much like the Nazis with the Jews, cept of course Christians used to be fed to predator animals for sport, or pinned to crossed sections of wood and left to die, in some cases taking days to shuffle off the mortal coil. How can anyone who loves Jesus, and God, trust the word, deed, and intent of an organisation based on that history?

God and Jesus, they may have mercy on the souls of the sort of morons who are giving science a bad time right now, but I may find it harder to do so. Trying to denounce the hard work and open eyed efforts of science over the centuaries is one thing, people do that all the time (Greer, Collier, Sorcha Faal) but to have a group of hardcore heretics like these morons do it, while desecrating the name of God... that goes beyond the point of tolerance.

Finally, if there are any complete intellectual non entities who follow God in a manner which requires the denial of fact, and an obsession with confessing before a mere mortal, reading this right now, I wish you the very best possible luck, because theres no way a single solitary one of you is going to heaven.