An in-depth (re)view of the Cash/ Landrum case

I'm thinking we might be looking at a hybrid explanation for this one, folks.

I believe it's highly likely they couldve been carrying a slung bladder type device such as the one illustrated back on Page 3 and hit some high-tension support pylons.

The impact couldve

1) broken some of the support wires, essentially "flipping" the horizontal tank/bladder to the vertical position.

2) punctured the bladder/tank and/or energized the object and causing internal combustion within the container, causing a breach in one or two fill ports/hatches of object - thus the "flames" that were observed emitting from it.

Both of these occurrences would likely have been followed by an "Oh $@#%" moment by the pilot.

They then come to a stop / clearing (road) to briefly have the other pilots inspect and report the situation since their view of the incident directly below them would likely be impeded.

Once they get a SITREP from the other crew, the rise into the sky and take off.

NOW.....my problem with this theory goes back the the physical injuries of the witnesses. First off, an arc flash is typically a source point injury. In other words, you have to be extremely close to it to occur. Not 100 feet away from a downed power line.

And I'm willing to bet if the heat (from far below the burning object) was enough to blister skin and heat the surface of the car several hundred degrees, you can almost guarantee the helicopter itself wouldve been in a world of hurt ABOVE the burning object.

I suspect the object may have been carrying nuclear materials. But these materials would not "ignite" and burn as described....the containment vessels they transport this waste in can take a direct hit from a 80 mph train and withstand several sticks of dynamite, even back in the 60s.

Therefore, has anyone considered the possibility this may have been a training mission for a nuclear missile recovery operation? Loss of nuclear weapons is nothing new for the DoD. Additionally, this seems like just the unit that would be tasked to undertake this sort of operation.

The "missile", after being located, secured and lifted by heli strikes a high-tension pylon, loses some of its rigging and subsequently ignites (rocket fuel). The convoy momentarily stops to inspect the damage....a certain amount of radioactive elements are released/distributed by the burning missile and irradiate the witnesses. The convoy abruptly elevates and makes like hell towards base......

Of course, the gaping hole in this theory is the fact that the "missile" would probably not have been armed with a warhead or even included fuel....but then again, stranger things have happened in the military. Maybe they wanted an actual missile to test the sway/payload characteristics of it once it was suspended....

Thoughts?

reply to post by dtrock78

I'm thinking we might be looking at a hybrid explanation for this one, folks.

I believe it's highly likely they couldve been carrying a slung bladder type device such as the one illustrated back on Page 3 and hit some high-tension support pylons.

I also think we're looking at a 'hybrid' event - a mixed-up series of events. It's a pity DPD took his ball home instead of bouncing ideas around.

A big problem with the power lines idea is momentum and speed. If we take the angle that a night-time exercise (insertion or evac etc) took place at tree-tops altitude, we have to include the speed and weight...

Empty Weight: 23,401 lbs
Max Speed: 170 knots / 184 mph
Normal Cruise Speed: 130 knots / 149 mph

Chinook facts

Is there any chance a 23 000 lb aircraft travelling at that speed is going to snag a power line? If you google search "power lines helicopter crash" there are examples of what damage happens to lines. pylons and the lightweight helis that hit them.

Fuel bladders face the same issues. A 500 gallon drop-drum would be just over 4000 lbs....travelling at the speed above. There's a paper here that shows a smaller (modern), 100 gallon bladder being tested for bullets and impacts. The images are suggestive of what could happen with a static drop from height.

The bladder can't be attached to the CH-47 and have one stop dead without the other experiencing a catastrophic effect on flight momentum and direction. A likely outcome would be CH-47, fuel bladder and the power lines damaged beyond repair.

Therefore, has anyone considered the possibility this may have been a training mission for a nuclear missile recovery operation? Loss of nuclear weapons is nothing new for the DoD. Additionally, this seems like just the unit that would be tasked to undertake this sort of operation.

The "missile", after being located, secured and lifted by heli strikes a high-tension pylon, loses some of its rigging and subsequently ignites (rocket fuel). The convoy momentarily stops to inspect the damage....a certain amount of radioactive elements are released/distributed by the burning missile and irradiate the witnesses. The convoy abruptly elevates and makes like hell towards base......

I thought about this and it didn't fit well enough for many of the reasons you've also raised. Hazardous materials rather than nuclear could be more along the right lines? Who knows?

Wow, still new ideas and conclusions, I'm really happy guys

Since today is my birthday I don't have that much time (family's arriving in the afternoon ) to go deeper into dtrock's ideas but I think they sound interesting.

What is reallly striking to me is the "fact" that the object in my opinion seemingly was more "mechanical"/"technical" than just a bladder with leaking stuff if you get my point. It seems to have more characteristics that can be compared to an object under intelligent control than just something that is attached to a helicopter.

Hi Isaac,

do you got any new input by the witness you were talking about?

Originally posted by Dalbeck
Hi Isaac,

do you got any new input by the witness you were talking about?

No reply at all. I'm sure you share my frustration about that...

The relevant information was recently posted on the MUFON Forum at the link below by someone using the username "lmcmillen45" (on 30th August 2011):

forums.mufon.com...

"I was listening to Coast to Coast the other night and they were talking about the object that was being chased by helicopters. I personally witnessed this event back in 1980. I was standing on my mothers porch and I saw back to the south an object that looked like a large propane tank glowing and was being chased by approximately 20 to 25 helicopters. They were coming from the east (from Beaumont) going west toward Dayton, Texas."

I requested further details from "lmcmillen45" on that forum and by U2U, but that user has not been back on the MUFON forum since posting that message. Indeed, that post was his only email on the forum.

Due to the absence of a response on that forum I did a Google search on the username "lmcmillen45" and found an email address which may (or may not...) be the same person. I sent an email to that email address a few days ago but have not had any response at all so far.

All the best,

Isaac

Originally posted by IsaacKoi
Incidentally, a few searches on Google indicate that Quest Publications published some or all of the Cash/Landrum litigation documents. I have a small pile somewhere of booklets published by Quest Publications, do I'll have a look to see if I already have the relevant booklet (but I don't recall that one being in the bunch I've bought...). I don't know if that publication was more complete than the few documents at the link you kindly provided, i.e.:
www.cufon.org...

I checked over the weekend and my small pile of material published by Quest Publications does not include the Cash/Landrum booklet.

All the best,

Isaac

reply to post by IsaacKoi


Hello Isaac,

thanks a lot for your kind and fast response. That's all you could do for now and I'm really happy about your efforts and contribution to this thread!

The new witness' acount sounds really interesting and of course I would love to hear more about his encounter but we'll have to wait and see I guess.

Thanks again!

Kind regards

Hi again Dalbeck et al,

One of the leads that I'd recommend following up in relation to the Cash/Landrum case would be to obtain the file which MUFON has stated it holds on this event.

See the thread I've just started on the MUFON forum (with your work in mind Dalbeck) about this:
mutualufonetwork.proboards.com...

I don't think it wouldn't hurt if some other people interested in seeing that file posted in that thread on the MUFON forum to show I'm not the only one...

I might start a brief thread later about various recent and on-going projects by MUFON.

All the best,

Isaac

reply to post by IsaacKoi


Hi Isaac,

thanks again for your efforts, it's really appreciated! I would like to see MUFON's input/ file to this (and of course other) case(s).

I will join the forum and thread you started over there later on and request the file(s)

Kind regards!

Originally posted by IsaacKoi

Originally posted by Kandinsky
reply to post by IsaacKoi

 

You might want to look at that issue. It mentions a MUFON-CES report (No 10) that details UFO sightings by astronomers.

Thanks. I'll get hold of a copy of that.

At the risk of straying off-topic for this thread, I thought I'd let anyone interested (particularly Kandinsky) know that, after a bit of time and effort, I found the relevant MUFON-CES report (No.9 - referred to on page 6 of MUFON's Journal for September 1983) online at the link below:

www.mufon-ces.org...

It includes (according to Google's very useful translation tools) "Schneider, Adolf, "sightings of unknown celestial phenomena by astronomers", p. 95-194", which is in PDF format at:
www.mufon-ces.org...

Now I just need to find a tool to translate that PDF article from German in to English...

All the best,

Isaac

reply to post by IsaacKoi


Translating would be no problem for me, but 100 pages is really a lot of time it would take for me to do so. Maybe you're interested in specific pages for me to translate, Isaac? I couldn't find anything related to Cash/ Landrum skimming over the text though.

Kind regards!

Originally posted by Dalbeck
reply to post by IsaacKoi

 

Translating would be no problem for me, but 100 pages is really a lot of time it would take for me to do so.

Hi Dalbeck,

Sorry, I took your thread a bit off topic there.

I was responding to Kandinsky's helpful passing reference to a MUFON Journal which included (a) an article on the Cash-Landrum incident and (b) an article Kandinsky (rightly) thought I'd find interesting because it dealt with the issues of astronomers and UFOs.

My post related to (b). I was just letting anyone interested know that I'd found the German report discussed in the article on astronomers and UFOs - plus giving a link to it. That article is unrelated to the other MUFON journal article on the Cash-Landrum incident.

As for translating the German material, I've run the PDF through some Optical Character Recognition software and run the resulting German text through Google's Translate tool - and got a translation which was adequate for my purposes. I certainly wouldn't expect you (or anyone else) to translate a 100 page article!

Back on topic:

(1) I still haven't heard anything from the (possible) further witness relevant to the Cash-Landrum incident that had posted on the MUFON forum.

(2) I've been told that MUFON has indeed scanned an investigation file relating to the Cash-Landrum incident, but hasn't posted it on its main website yet... Apparently, it was available on a separate website ("MUFON Central") that charged additional fees - but I didn't hear about that until after the relevant website disappeared. See:
forums.mufon.com...

All the best,

Isaac

Originally posted by IsaacKoi

Originally posted by Dalbeck
reply to post by IsaacKoi

 

Translating would be no problem for me, but 100 pages is really a lot of time it would take for me to do so.

Hi Dalbeck,

Sorry, I took your thread a bit off topic there.

I was responding to Kandinsky's helpful passing reference to a MUFON Journal which included (a) an article on the Cash-Landrum incident and (b) an article Kandinsky (rightly) thought I'd find interesting because it dealt with the issues of astronomers and UFOs.

My post related to (b). I was just letting anyone interested know that I'd found the German report discussed in the article on astronomers and UFOs - plus giving a link to it. That article is unrelated to the other MUFON journal article on the Cash-Landrum incident.

As for translating the German material, I've run the PDF through some Optical Character Recognition software and run the resulting German text through Google's Translate tool - and got a translation which was adequate for my purposes. I certainly wouldn't expect you (or anyone else) to translate a 100 page article!

Back on topic:

(1) I still haven't heard anything from the (possible) further witness relevant to the Cash-Landrum incident that had posted on the MUFON forum.

(2) I've been told that MUFON has indeed scanned an investigation file relating to the Cash-Landrum incident, but hasn't posted it on its main website yet... Apparently, it was available on a separate website ("MUFON Central") that charged additional fees - but I didn't hear about that until after the relevant website disappeared. See:
forums.mufon.com...

All the best,

Isaac

edit on 22-9-2011 by IsaacKoi because: (no reason given)

Hello Isaac,

no problem at all I'm impressed it actually worked with the Optical Recognition software! If you still have any questions (Google sometimes translates things in a contextually wrong way), let me know, I will gladly translate it.

What a pity the witness didn't respond yet, it would have been too good to be true...

As for the MUFON files I already checked the forum and saw their answer, at least they have them stored anyway and hopefully will put them up as soon as possible. Thanks for your help and efforts so far Isaac!

Kind regards

Jim Moseley, publisher of Saucer Smear, has just recently become aware of this thread and is now monitoring it (via printed updates). He's been giving the Cash-Landrum case coverage over the years, but lately has taken a particular interest in covering it and in searching for new leads. Anyone interested in following the developments or helping provide information should look check out Jim Moseley's SAUCER SMEAR for past issues and contact details.

As for me, I'm hoping someone here can help me with a piece of information. According to John Schuessler in the Oct. 1982 MUFON Journal, "... the APRO claim that it (the Cash-Landrum UFO) was a govenrment device and having evidence that would help in the case."

The claim likely was in an APRO Bulletin (maybe Vol. 30, No. 7) in 1982. Does anyone have information on this APRO story of evidence?

Another question- The earliest connection I've seen to this case of the "WASP II" was in a newspaper story from 1991. Was it mentioned earlier than that, and if so, by whom?

reply to post by CardDown
I take it you are a postal recipient of Saucer Smear? If so

Keep a hold of them because I reckon they'll be valuable items in the future.

How is the thread, or the Cash-Landrum case, being discussed in the Smear? What angle is Mr Moseley taking? As far as I was aware, he has little time for the internet and won't use a computer. I wrote a letter to him earlier this year (Damon, Texas case) and can only assume it was lost in the post.

I'm interested in the Smear's take on this thread as I think it has covered new ground. Dpd11 and Dalbek have inspired some intriguing discussion.

Originally posted by Dalbeck
reply to post by Rising Against

 

Thanks a lot! It took me really about 2 weeks to gather and collect all important pieces of information and compile it into one thread, it's good to see people are still interested in this case and appreciate the effort (even though of course I used a lot of quotes but I still wanted only to post the most important stuff and therefore had a lot of reading and researching).

Well, that is what it takes to create a great post sometimes, and friend, that was a great post. Well researched and presented. I have never heard of this case before now, so thank you.

reply to post by dpd11

Here's the deal people... You want to know why the general public laughs when anybody brings up UFOs, and basically thinks anybody that's interested in UFOs is a nut? This thread is a perfect example...

I totally agree! I have been here awhile, and what I see on these ET/Alien threads is one of two things: either they are all demons, or it's all a hoax. And the names they call a person trying to report a real documented incident are appalling. I myself have gotten a lot of flak over writing about Aliens and UFOs, so I know exactly what a new member must think when they try to tell of an event, or experience involving ETs.

Originally posted by Kandinsky
reply to post by CardDown

How is the thread, or the Cash-Landrum case, being discussed in the Smear?
What angle is Mr Moseley taking? As far as I was aware, he has little time for the internet and won't use a computer.

Mr. Moseley is not online, but receives material regularly from (his readers and especially) Smear's contributing editor, Vince Ditchkus, who made him aware of this thread. I don't know if he'll be mentioning the ATS thread, but it's fairly likely, as he definitely has an interest in it.

From what he's been writing, he subscribes to the covert military operation theory as an explanation of the case. As far as the angle taken, from what I've seen he's attempting to contact whatever contacts as close to the source as possible, and re-examine some of the promising dead ends while looking for new clues.

I'm glad to see his devotion to the case, and am hoping it will inspire others to take an interest. Even should it ultimately prove to be unsolvable, the material uncovered and knowledge gained should be applicable to many other cases, from the reliability of witness testimony to the operations and secrecy of the military special forces and U.S. government.

Originally posted by CardDown
Jim Moseley, publisher of Saucer Smear, has just recently become aware of this thread and is now monitoring it (via printed updates). He's been giving the Cash-Landrum case coverage over the years, but lately has taken a particular interest in covering it and in searching for new leads. Anyone interested in following the developments or helping provide information should look check out Jim Moseley's SAUCER SMEAR for past issues and contact details.

As for me, I'm hoping someone here can help me with a piece of information. According to John Schuessler in the Oct. 1982 MUFON Journal, "... the APRO claim that it (the Cash-Landrum UFO) was a govenrment device and having evidence that would help in the case."

The claim likely was in an APRO Bulletin (maybe Vol. 30, No. 7) in 1982. Does anyone have information on this APRO story of evidence?

Another question- The earliest connection I've seen to this case of the "WASP II" was in a newspaper story from 1991. Was it mentioned earlier than that, and if so, by whom?

edit on 13-11-2011 by CardDown because: corrections

Thanks CardDown for your further research! I didn't even know the WASP II was mentioned in 1991, the first time I heard about it was in HC's doc about the case, Dr. McClelland talked about it. It's great to hear Mr. Moseley is investigating the case as well. So thanks for the link!!

Originally posted by Kandinsky
reply to post by CardDown

 

I'm interested in the Smear's take on this thread as I think it has covered new ground. Dpd11 and Dalbek have inspired some intriguing discussion.

Thanks Kandinsky! Yes, I would love to read about Smear's take as well When I started this thread I couldn't even imagine that my favourite case would have so much impact and has such a great output of new ideas etc!

Originally posted by autowrench

Originally posted by Dalbeck
reply to post by Rising Against

 

Thanks a lot! It took me really about 2 weeks to gather and collect all important pieces of information and compile it into one thread, it's good to see people are still interested in this case and appreciate the effort (even though of course I used a lot of quotes but I still wanted only to post the most important stuff and therefore had a lot of reading and researching).

Well, that is what it takes to create a great post sometimes, and friend, that was a great post. Well researched and presented. I have never heard of this case before now, so thank you.

You're welcome sir! I have to thank you for taking your time! The more people know about the case the more it gets exposure!

Originally posted by CardDown
Mr. Moseley is not online, but receives material regularly from (his readers and especially) Smear's contributing editor, Vince Ditchkus, who made him aware of this thread. I don't know if he'll be mentioning the ATS thread, but it's fairly likely, as he definitely has an interest in it.

From what he's been writing, he subscribes to the covert military operation theory as an explanation of the case. As far as the angle taken, from what I've seen he's attempting to contact whatever contacts as close to the source as possible, and re-examine some of the promising dead ends while looking for new clues.

I'm glad to see his devotion to the case, and am hoping it will inspire others to take an interest. Even should it ultimately prove to be unsolvable, the material uncovered and knowledge gained should be applicable to many other cases, from the reliability of witness testimony to the operations and secrecy of the military special forces and U.S. government.

I'm really interested in Mr. Moseleys research and am glad he makes it public in his magazine. I think we should "track down" some of the pilots of the Chinooks and start from there. Even though it may be highly unlike gettin them to talk but if the interviewer promises anonymity someone will step forward.

reply to post by Dalbeck


Here's one many of you may not know about. Wendy Connors got a tape of Vickie's initial incident report to NUFORC and cleaned it up for audio quality.
The Cash-Landrum portion begins at about 1:20.50:
Vickie Landrum's initial UFO report to NUFORC, Feb. 2, 1981

Wendy Connors 16 Feb 2005 07 Subject: Big Doings On SDI Saturday Night

Big doings on Strange Days... Indeed - this week. Errol and I will be presenting new audio clips of importance to the field of Ufology.
...
Later, we'll play Vickie Landrum's first call for assistance to Bob Gribble at NUFORC, about a month after she and Betty Cash became ill from the effects of a UFO they encountered near Dayton, TX. This is the first time this recording has been publicly aired and is unknown to the vast majority of researchers.