Blood On My Shirt - Where Are the Real Men At?

Originally posted by petrus4
This is why I have deliberately avoided even attempting to learn any form of martial art. There are far too many people within contemporary society, who I would not be able to resist the temptation to use it on.

Real martial arts teaches you that fighting is the very last resort, as it is a way of life, more than kicking and punching. I commend LifeIsEnergy for stepping in, sometimes you have to defend those that can't defend themselves. That must have been quite a blow to knock him unconscious. I wonder what happened afterwards..

This has nothing to do with being 'real man' with some idealized gender archetypes where to be a 'real man' you have to be protectors and to be a 'real women' you have to be nuturing. That just exacerbates the problem by putting men in the position where they are 'strong' and stand up for what's right and woman are just motherly and 'nuturing' and there to support the man. It gives men power to exert control over women because if they are a 'real woman' they can't protect themselves without a man.

So again, this is not about being a real man but being a real human and treating other humans with respect, and valuing everyone equally. There's no such thing as a 'real man' or a 'real woman', just decent, kind people.

Originally posted by Akasirus
This has nothing to do with being 'real man' with some idealized gender archetypes where to be a 'real man' you have to be protectors and to be a 'real women' you have to be nuturing. That just exacerbates the problem by putting men in the position where they are 'strong' and stand up for what's right and woman are just motherly and 'nuturing' and their to support the man, because it allows men to exert control over women because if they are a 'real woman' they can't protect themselves or others.

So again, this is not about being a real man but being a real human and treating other humans with respect, and valuing everyone equally.

Respectfully disagree, Men are generally MUCH stronger than woman - if a man and a woman both witness a physical altercation taking place the most of the time it is the man who should step up to the plate because he has the physical ability to deal with the situation. If the woman is a champion kickboxer and benches 300 I would gladly tuck my junk between my legs and let her handle it.
I am all for people being themself but we NEED real tough men again, because no one else has the physical ability to fill their role and they are disappearing very quickly.

We can go on and on about all of us being the same, and Men and Woman being equal - and as I said I am for that and think woman deserve equal rights - but we cant let it distort our view of reality and what actually is

reply to post by LifeIsEnergy

Thank you for being one of the few that would act to help a stranger. Your behavior is rare, and that is a terrible shame. If I'm ever in distress, I can only hope that someone of your ilk is nearby. I want to respond thoughtfully, but when I hear stuff like this, it's hard to put the emotions aside.

Whatever thoughts people have regarding what the girl might have done to elicit a violent reaction…. there is NEVER justification. A real man (or woman, for that matter) definitely doesn't defend or advocate physical violence toward women and children. Those who victimize the defenseless are the scum of the earth. Overpowering someone smaller than you is not a man. That's a coward and a monster.

There was an incident in my city not too long ago, where a young man stepped in to try to help a woman who was getting assaulted by her boyfriend. He was beaten into a coma. Apparently the couple then left together and left the kid in a bloody pile on the street (huh?). Unfortunately, this is not a rare occurrence. Just as others had noted, I am mystified by situations where the woman either ends up defending the dude's behavior, or doesn't leave. However, anyone who is an abusive relationship is also being abused psychologically. Their identities are beaten out of them. From an objective viewpoint, it's difficult to understand how any woman could allow themselves to be treated that way and even protect the jerk in some cases. But unless you've been in that situation, it will never make sense.

How did we get here? It's complicated and there are various factors. Retaliation is a valid concern for those who might step in the middle of a volatile situation. If the person is unstable already, let alone blinded by rage, who knows what the outcome might be. There are the few who will act without thinking of their own personal safety, because it is more important at that moment to come to a fellow human being's aid. As my story above proves, that might just land you in the hospital - or dead. It's unfortunate.

I think the onlookers fall into two categories - those who are afraid for their own safety and those who feel it's not their problem. The latter are contributing to the momentum of the downward spiral of our humanity. So, the violent, aggressive jerks and the disaffected are complicit in this scenario. The women who defend the jerks only serve to perpetuate sick behavior (but remedies to this reach far beyond the a-holes, and into sociology in general).

I was on the bus one day, returning from a doctor's appointment. I felt weak and faint -like a crap sandwich in general. Thankfully, there was a seat available about five rows from the front. More people piled on as the trip progressed. Then, this elderly man boarded. He was supporting himself with a cane and moving very slowly. Not ONE person gave up their seat. I couldn't believe it! Most were young men and women and they just watched him hobble along. I offered my seat without hesitation. He was very gracious. I smiled in return. He smiled back. A few stops later, something interesting happened. A disabled woman boarded, and three people immediately offered their seats. I learned something valuable that day. Leading by example is the best thing a person can do, and good things can come of it. Keep in mind that not only was I really unwell that day, but I"m also female. In addition, the first person of the three to offer their seats was also female. Where were the men? ….Perhaps those men who watched you take initiative came away with a valuable lesson.

I've helped old ladies cross the street. I've opened doors for people. I jump in to help when someone has dropped something. I rarely, if ever, observe men doing the same. Why? Women aren't exactly stepping up either. The modern world, and the persistent sense of entitlement many people have only serve to worsen an already tragic trend.

It's not necessarily "where are the real men at", I think it's more appropriately, "where are the real people at".

This topic brings up a lot of deeper societal issues, and I hope the dialog continues.

reply to post by LifeIsEnergy


First of all....bravo to you. You did the right thing.

Secondly though.....some helpful advice. Don't try to philosophize and rationalize the reasons behind anyone's actions that day, or society as a whole. The simple truth of the matter is....to break into a Nick Cave song for a moment... "People just ain't no good
I think that's welll understood
You can see it everywhere you look
People just ain't no good"

And that is indeed the truth...People just 'ain't no good'. Don't try to change, or understand 'people'....the only person you can truly change or understand is yourself (and at least on a moral level...you seem to be doing a bit better than most). The truth of the matter is violence, oppression, bigotry, hate, spousal abuse...etc, etc. etc.....have been with the world since the first human brain evolved. Likely these things will be with us till the end of our collective existence.

Sure, hatred bigotry and violence change forms over the years....In America's past settlers were killing Indians for money.....beating their wives, and slaves for the Hell of it....and hating Chinese Immigrants. Today conservatives hate liberals, and liberals hate conservatives....wives still get beat. Gangs kill each other for money. People quickly turn into thieving animals given the opportunity (most recently seen in the UK....or in America at the Rodney King protests)...and everybody hates the Muslims...etc, etc. etc. Things don't change. The only things that change are people's excuses for being "no good".

And that's all it takes....an excuse for the Human mind to say to itself it's OK....'It's my wife I'll treat her the way I want...she obviously doesn't mind or she wouldn't keep coming back to me"...."It's OK to hate Minorities...they're all vicious animals that want to destroy my culture"....."the ends justifies the means"..."It's OK to take away the rights of people of a different religion...they're all going to Hell anyhow"..excuses, excuses and more excuses. People will latch on to such excuses to justify any sort of behavior that they truly know in their heart is wrong.

"People just ain't no good"......get used to it. The only one you can change is yourself...and if you are lucky, maybe you'll inspire others to follow your path by your own actions.

Originally posted by byteshertz

Originally posted by Akasirus
This has nothing to do with being 'real man' with some idealized gender archetypes where to be a 'real man' you have to be protectors and to be a 'real women' you have to be nuturing. That just exacerbates the problem by putting men in the position where they are 'strong' and stand up for what's right and woman are just motherly and 'nuturing' and their to support the man, because it allows men to exert control over women because if they are a 'real woman' they can't protect themselves or others.

So again, this is not about being a real man but being a real human and treating other humans with respect, and valuing everyone equally.

Respectfully disagree, Men are generally MUCH stronger than woman - if a man and a woman both witness a physical altercation taking place the most of the time it is the man who should step up to the plate because he has the physical ability to deal with the situation. If the woman is a champion kickboxer and benches 300 I would gladly tuck my junk between my legs and let her handle it.
I am all for people being themself but we NEED real tough men again, because no one else has the physical ability to fill their role and they are disappearing very quickly.

But the OP equates being a real man with being a moral protector, not with being able to beat the # out of everyone. There are dozens of other ways to be a moral protector than getting in a physical altercation, and being a strong willed protector is not something that should be inherently male. The same traits and virtues that make a man better also make a women better, because they are human traits not gender traits. Men should not intrinsically strive for different values to be a better person than a women would. I think that kind of thinking leads to victimization in this society.

EVERYONE is capable of standing up for their morals. I am no less of a man because I am not a 'tough guy'. Men, woman, and children alike should be empowered and taught to use whatever skillset they have to avoid being victims, and help others where possible.

ETA: For example, if that woman had been taught that she could be every bit a 'moral protector' as anyone else, that she didn't need a man to feel safe, that she can stand up for herself and avoid being a victim, she probably wouldn't have been in the situation where she was with an abusive boyfriend in an alley. She would have said "# this, I'm out" at the first sign of trouble, instead of thinking she was powerless to stand up for what she believes in, and sticking with this guy until a 'real man' can stand up for her.

reply to post by Akasirus


You make some great points. Thanks for the insights.

Peace.

reply to post by Akasirus


Agree, well put post - star.

First, good for you for stepping in. Nothing gets my blood boiling faster than seeing a female get whooped on. Even if it's by another female. When I see videos of school girls fighting and one brutally beating the other, the emotion I feel is a combination of rage, anger and extreme sadness in seeing a girl get hurt. I don't know what it is and maybe I'll be called a sexist, but I believe before all of the political correctness, feminism and all the other crap was brought into the picture, women were to be honored and protected by men. In nature it is our duty to protect them and look after them. And I say that with the utmost respect for women.

That being said, I'm really surprised I didn't see this mentioned in the first two pages of replies and that is the law! These days, the saying, "no good deed goes unpunished" applies more than ever. The laws are so screwed up the good Samaritan could easily be the one going to jail while wife-beater walks away because it's viewed as a "domestic dispute" and for the outsider getting involved, it's just flat-out assault. Lets face it, the legal system in most Western societies is ass-backwards. If a burglar gets hurt while burglarizing your home, he can sue you. Yes, he can! And it has happened! You could easily get wrapped up in a 2 year legal battle over something like that because our legal system is so void of common sense. A broken bottle, a severed artery or tendon, loss of vision in one eye, could all get you into more hot water than you would want to deal with.

The other aspect is feminism. Women have fought so hard to be equal, in all respects. To take it to the extreme, many hard-core feminists simply view men as sperm donors and nothing more. It's sad, but that's what it has come to. They have fought to serve in the military on the front lines, to hold CEO positions, and the list goes on and on. As sad as it may sound, and I'm not saying this to be a jerk but the truth is, they got what they wanted. It might be a tough pill to swallow but equal means equal, not sort of equal or a little equal, but EQUAL. It's a bitter pill but it comes with the territory of being "equal".

reply to post by LifeIsEnergy


Good job man, just be happy you didn't kill him. Growing up around a step father that beat his mother I dont take kindly to seeing women getting beat up so I would step in. One day when I was like 8 years old he was beating my mom we was trying to run away from him but he knocked her down started kickin her in the face in our front yard. I tried to stop him but he would just throw me, luckily some guy in a truck was driving by and seen it. He stopped got out grabbed a 2x4 out of the back of his truck and came sprinting at him but my step dad took off running. I never seen a coward run so fast...

For the people claiming this story is fake, that's ok, I understand. I could tell you a bunch of other stories that are far more crazier then this one, but I am sure you are not the type of person who would want to believe such things. You must live in a very small town, because this would never make the news here. I was by no means a 'town hero'. You must watch too many movies.

And I have no problem admitting defeat, I have enough scars and broken bones to speak for themselves. I was lucky, that's it.

Go to the store, pick up a glass bottle of sobe or arizona ice tea, and then decide if that couldn't knock you out. And I never claimed this was done intentionally, as if I am some "tough guy". I said it was purely instinctual reaction. I walked up, he swung, I moved, my hand came up and met his face, and end of story. I didn't do any martial arts or even square up with him. And yes, things could of easily turned out different, that is life and I am all too used to that.

Thanks for all the great stuff you added to this thread though!

Peace.

Look at the movies. When was the last time you saw a real man in a movie? No, I'm not talking about Dwayne the rock Johnson, or Vin Diesel or any of that dodging bullets, shooting better than the bad guys and kicking ass like a ninja.

No, there's few films these days that have the protagonist as a real man. The Road with Viggo Mortensen is one. He was a man, a husband, a father who did everything in his power to keep the family safe. It was really touching to hear him and the son talk about, "Keeping the fire alive." and that they "were the good guys," in a post-apocalyptic, cannibal infested world.



"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing."
-Robert E. Howard

Ah you did the right thing.. Just glad you got out of there, cause with the witnesses gone (the woman) and our legal system, could have goten bad law wise. Gjob though.


Deebo

I understand your feelings , me and my father got into similar kind of situation but less obvious while getting out of the theater . 2 guy of approx 16yo were looking into a backpack of a smaller third guy around this age , when we passed by we could hear those 2 guy saying to the third "what is here and here show me that " literally the head in the backpack , me and my father looked at each other wondering what the heck we just saw...

Then we came back to the scene and ask what those two guy were doing and surprisingly they were really calm and answered us that they do what they want and said that the guy they are racketing are one of their friend , we confronted them and thing escalated quickly.
But me and my father were quite baffled that those guy werent even giving a # at doing it even confronted .
One guy was facing me and other faced my father as they getting too close, i put my arm on the shoulder of one guy to keep some distance and my father was backing up and as thing escalated he toke his pepper spray out warning the guy that he would use it , in my head i was how the # escalated so fast a lot of question were going trough my mind , are this guy really this friend what if it was true , i had some martial art background since really young , kick boxing kung fu a lot of everything another question was will it be legitimate if i hit them first .This was way to close for confort and i was so close to hit the guy in front of me
But what if was wrong what will happen, what if those guy call some friend or some friend or those hanging arround..
After staying in this position for like 10 minute or maybe less but thing feel really slow in this case one of the guy break out and turned his back , he was pulling something from underneat his shirt mimicking reaching a weapon and lot of thing goes trough my mind again , what if he got a knife or a gun , he finaly turn back to me and pull a cellphone telling me he is calling for his friend.
One guy stood by and saw the scene asked what going on and said that he was a police officer off duty , break us appart , and 10 second later we are shaking hand ...another surprise , i was so surprised that i look behind my shoulder to see if they were following us to our car.
After that i really thinked , that if i see something like that again i call the police, you never know what # you got into and those guy usualy are up to anything , you are playing by the rule but they arent and since they are usualy getting in this kind of trouble they know that the law is in her side at their age they wont risk much in front of the law but in the other hand you are risking your life in every aspect even on the law side ...
So what they could do those five guy they were looking is at least call 911.

Originally posted by axslinger
The other aspect is feminism. Women have fought so hard to be equal, in all respects. To take it to the extreme, many hard-core feminists simply view men as sperm donors and nothing more. It's sad, but that's what it has come to. They have fought to serve in the military on the front lines, to hold CEO positions, and the list goes on and on. As sad as it may sound, and I'm not saying this to be a jerk but the truth is, they got what they wanted. It might be a tough pill to swallow but equal means equal, not sort of equal or a little equal, but EQUAL. It's a bitter pill but it comes with the territory of being "equal".

I enjoyed your post, although I respectfully disagree with this part. I get what you are saying, but unfortunately, they (women) didn't get what they wanted, because they are not equals in the eyes of society. Strides have been made, yes. But equality is not a reality just yet.

Originally posted by AMANNAMEDQUEST
Look at the movies. When was the last time you saw a real man in a movie? No, I'm not talking about Dwayne the rock Johnson, or Vin Diesel or any of that dodging bullets, shooting better than the bad guys and kicking ass like a ninja.

"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing."
-Robert E. Howard

Love the quote. I agree. And not just movies, but all media with a broad audience. Worse yet, are all the "reality" programs and such. People just dogging each other, demeaning, confronting, dramatizing. Nothing of substance. Music videos? Nah. Advertisements... where the man is usually portrayed as a bumbling idiot (why?). At home? Fathers who are not only present but men of great character? Rare.

Originally posted by harold223
Buy the sounds of it, the OP did the right thing, but you do have to be careful that you understand the situation. In this youtube video, a TV prankster pulls a prank on some guy, just happens to be outside a Taekwondo studio. This is an example of acting without understanding.

edit on 18-8-2011 by harold223 because: (no reason given)

edit on 18-8-2011 by harold223 because: (no reason given)

edit on 18-8-2011 by harold223 because: (no reason given)

Other than saying thanks for the laugh,,,well,,,,,All i can say to you and that bloke is that im glad that moron got his arsed kicked. So suck IT and HAHAHA, and he is lucky that kick is all that he got.
People have no respect these days and Im sick of idiots thinking they can play whatever game that they want.
Im glad that idiot got what he deserved.
People that are stupid and respect nothing but themselves deserve nothing but a beating to bring them back to reality and the real world.

Fair play to you. That could have been anyone of our sisters, mothers etc. getting a beating for helping that young girl and you stopped him from going further. Hitting anyone is wrong but hitting women is completely(in my book) a no go at all. I am old skool like that.

I do agree though with what someone else said in that all the decent blokes are probably at home with their kids or whatever and not hanging around street corners.

There was a time when men honored their ancestors. And they too had strive to leave behind an honorable legacy.

"Cattle die, kindred die,
Every man is mortal:
But the good name never dies
Of one who has done well

Havamal 76

Cattle die, kindred die,
Every man is mortal:
But I know one thing that never dies,
The glory of the great dead

Havamal 77"

Here is another story, and you decide which is more unbelievable.

A guy who was an a friend of a friend decided to rob me. I was too scared to stand up for myself and so I allowed it to happen. A few weeks later he tried it again. But this time he did not tell me to give him my money, he just started to punch me and so I was forced to fight. He was easily twice my size, and he hit me so many times I thought I was definitely going to die. But after a few minutes he grew tired. I was then able to take him to the ground and started to beat his head pretty bad. His girlfriend then stepped in and began to attack me. I stood up and put my arms out to hold her back and she threw a hook around my arms, connecting with my jaw, and knocked me out cold.

So yea, weird things happen.

Peace.

No disrespect OP, but where I'm from the description sounds a bit "emo."

You did good by cracking that "sumbitch" over the face with a bottle. Nothing more, nothing less. You are over thinking it.