Protection - Gun Alternatives?

reply to post by MrJohnSmith


Im in the UK also & recently our laws have changed slightly, its not so much now that if a burglar comes in through an open window and you hurt him, that he can probably file a lawsuit against you, as you mentioned its now gauged by the court what was 'reasonable force' But i know for sure if i woke in the middle of the night and saw a flashlight coming up my stairs, i would sure as hell be waiting at the top with my baseball bat to break one of that thugs legs, I dont think i would have the guts to hit someone in the stomach or in the head with it, not unless they had a knife or gun, and i felt they were trying to kill me, in which case for me to do the same thing would be 'reasonable force' but if hes got a blunt object and you've got a blunt object and you break one of his legs, then drag him out onto the street and wait for the police, im sure you've done the right thing in not ending his life.

reply to post by anumohi


Dogs are good but geese are better! My family had 5 geese when i was growing up and when someone would come to the fence the pack would go running towards them honking and ready to bite! VERY good and loyal.

It all boils down to what kind of world we live in.

If every one had stone spearpoints and long sticks, I would have bow & arrows.

If they had swords and bow & arrows, I would have a flintlock musket.

If they had flintlock muskets, I would have a trapdoor Springfield rifle. Or a new-fangled (in the day) Remington Army 6 shooter cap and ball.

Thus the evolution of weaponry. It's how we survive in a mechanized world. I would very much prefer that none of the above weapons were necessary. But I didn't get to pick the situation.

Now, most criminals and savages have cartridge-fed smokeless firearms. So, I get the very best of that type of tool and training/knowledge to go with it. I'm pragmatic that way.

Not for me, but for my family and friends. I could not RIP if something happened to them while I wielded a (knife/club/flashlight/slingshot/jalapeno pepper concentrate......fill in the blanks) helplessly trying to defend against a firearm.

OP:

For straight home defense, go with a shotgun with 00 buck. The most popular ones are the Mossberg 500/590 and the Remington 870. Relatively cheap, too.

For SHTF, a good (and extremely cheap) rifle is the Mosin Nagant. It's powerful, accurate, reliable, and the ammo's cheap. Not to mention the bayonet can help in a pinch. You can find these at gun shows and online, but I got mine at a Cabela's. $100 for the rifle and all the accessories. (1936 Tula 91/30 if you care.) Just make sure to clean the barrel after shooting corrosive ammo.

A good semi-auto would be a Saiga (or any civilian Kalashnikov, WASR, MAK-90, etc.) or even an AR, though AR's can be expensive.

As for traps, NEVER set any outside a SHTF scenario. If you got a home intruder with one, you'd be crucified in court. Also never fire a warning shot. If you ever need to shoot, it's a desperate measure and so you need to shoot to kill.

Oh just man up and buy a COUPLE of guns. Get a hi capacity .45 auto, a 12 ga shotgun, and a bolt action hunting rifle (.308). This combination will ensure you have all bases covered from home security to fetching food for the table to actively taking out targets from a distance. They are ALL very common calibers and our military uses all of them so if you have to, you can snatch up some of theirs when TSHTF. Hope you have some camping and survival gear too along with a 4WD truck.

Originally posted by trig_grl
reply to post by anumohi

 

Dogs are good but geese are better! My family had 5 geese when i was growing up and when someone would come to the fence the pack would go running towards them honking and ready to bite! VERY good and loyal.

you do NOT want to mess with a goose. However, we have a ton of hawks. I don't even want to think about how that would turn out. Not good, to say the least.

Originally posted by cypherx82
OP:

For straight home defense, go with a shotgun with 00 buck. The most popular ones are the Mossberg 500/590 and the Remington 870. Relatively cheap, too.

For SHTF, a good (and extremely cheap) rifle is the Mosin Nagant. It's powerful, accurate, reliable, and the ammo's cheap. Not to mention the bayonet can help in a pinch. You can find these at gun shows and online, but I got mine at a Cabela's. $100 for the rifle and all the accessories. (1936 Tula 91/30 if you care.) Just make sure to clean the barrel after shooting corrosive ammo.

A good semi-auto would be a Saiga (or any civilian Kalashnikov, WASR, MAK-90, etc.) or even an AR, though AR's can be expensive.

As for traps, NEVER set any outside a SHTF scenario. If you got a home intruder with one, you'd be crucified in court. Also never fire a warning shot. If you ever need to shoot, it's a desperate measure and so you need to shoot to kill.

Couldn't have put it better myself. Emphasis on the no traps. You'll be doing 20 to life.

A gun is a tool of last resort. if you have the ability to - run. You may be facing a number of people who have more experience than you do.

If you do get a gun for personal defense I highly recommend a pistol preferably a 9mm glock model 17 with 147 grain subsonic rounds either ranger xp or my personal favs speer gold dot +p in the highest capacity your state allows. If your state only allows 10 rounds you may want to consider a 45 and depending on your hand size you should look into either a glock 21 or M&P45 with a trigger job (the stock one is mush)

This is down to a couple of unfortunate reality's, a shot gun has very limited numbers of shots lots of recoil and it's possible you'll be shooting essentially blind into a dark room at someone who you can't see and the long barrel will be an easy thing to grab from the side and will highlight you in the doorway. You could use a flashlight attached to it but unless you've practiced with moving in a house with a long barrel weapon your going to expose a lot of body area in a doorway to an attacker.

Using a rifle or supersonic rounds from a pistol it's likely that some of them may find there way into your neighbors home while your ears are ringing not a good idea.

In shtf I would get an decent 308 semi auto rifle like a ptr91 and a glock. The 308 will give you standoff distance over most other things if you absolutely have to use it. It's also a great hunting round.

Originally posted by circuitsports
A gun is a tool of last resort. if you have the ability to - run. You may be facing a number of people who have more experience than you do.

If you do get a gun for personal defense I highly recommend a pistol preferably a 9mm glock model 17 with 147 grain subsonic rounds either ranger xp or my personal favs speer gold dot +p in the highest capacity your state allows. If your state only allows 10 rounds you may want to consider a 45 and depending on your hand size you should look into either a glock 21 or M&P45 with a trigger job (the stock one is mush)

This is down to a couple of unfortunate reality's, a shot gun has very limited numbers of shots lots of recoil and it's possible you'll be shooting essentially blind into a dark room at someone who you can't see and the long barrel will be an easy thing to grab from the side and will highlight you in the doorway. You could use a flashlight attached to it but unless you've practiced with moving in a house with a long barrel weapon your going to expose a lot of body area in a doorway to an attacker.

Using a rifle or supersonic rounds from a pistol it's likely that some of them may find there way into your neighbors home while your ears are ringing not a good idea.

In shtf I would get an decent 308 semi auto rifle like a ptr91 and a glock. The 308 will give you standoff distance over most other things if you absolutely have to use it. It's also a great hunting round.

Well, I have to disagree. When someone breaks into your home, a gun is the tool of first resort. My shotty holds 8+1, so if I'm not out of trouble by 9 rounds of 00 buck, then I was screwed to begin with.

You did hit on a valuable point: don't own a rifle or a handgun unless you're prepared to spend time at the range (and I don't mean just 1 trip) getting comfortable with the weapon.

I have a mag for the handguns in the nightstand loaded with frangible rounds. I live in the middle of 37 acres so I'm not too worried about shooting my neighbor, but I understand that I'm the exception.

reply to post by tangonine


I do not pretend to be an expert but I am aware that trained professionals like the police have a 3 in 10 hit average in shootouts - which are typically line of sight short distances and with ambient or daytime lighting.

If you have 3 people in your home with 9 rounds in your shotgun I hope your a good shot.

As for a first tool I believe you arent familiar with the average home invasion or robbery situation, your first tool is your head. Your house is filled with things that arent worth your life so collecting yourself and your family and getting out of danger is your only real priority.

Stopping to engage in a possible gun fight with prepared criminals is your last resort, remember you are playing there game, you are reacting to there moves.

A friend of mine trains women for defensive situations and she found about 80% of the women who used a firearm for protection had it taken away and used against them vs over 90% that were successful at running away. You might think you can beat these odds but is your life worth it?

Which btw comes to the second most important tool your health, you may be smart enough to handle a situation but you should be fit enough to handle it as well especially in a shtf scenario?

reply to post by thinkingthing


You could always start with a stun gun if you want to slowly get used to handling a gun. A stun gun is also a good protection device. In fact although I do not own a stun gun, and they are expensive, I do own a flashlight which also delivers a whooping 1 million volts, and it is a good defense weapon which is also a good flashlight. The retail value is around $50-$60 USD for the flashlight/stun gun.

www.mystungun.com...

www.stungunscheaper.com...

If you want to get used to using a gun, or a rifle, which can be used at a much longer distance than a stun gun, it is also a good idea to have a pellet gun/rifle. A pellet rifle is also a good thing to have for a SHTF scenario, because the pellets are cheaper than any gun ammo you can find, and you can hunt small game with it.

Small game are easy to find even in cities, and yes, unfortunately in a SHTF scenario if you want to survive you might have to unfortunately hunt that cute squirrel you see climbing a tree near your house almost every day, or other rodent type game, or even birds.

A pellet gun/rifle are also a very good way to start training in how to use a gun or rifle, althou they do not have the kickback that a real gun, and rifle have, pellet weapons are good beginner type training tools.

I do not agree with this training regement - a very wise man once said "practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect"

Learning to use a gun that doesn't function or behave like a gun is a waste of time. Recoil control is part of a solid grip which is part of trigger control which leads to accuracy. Cutting out any one step really isnt doing much for learning the right way the first time.

In shtf you should at least have a field survival guide that tells you how to make traps, bullets will be worth more than gold if people start using them all up.

After my home was broken into, I bought a pistol which did make me feel safer. Later I also bought a Doberman, and let me tell you, I definitely feel much, much safer with the dog than the gun.
The dog will hear things that I don't. She is always alert, ready and most importantly can respond immediately. (I may not be near my gun when someone breaks in). When I'm in the shower and think I may have heard a noise, I'm not worried because I know no one can come inside my house without the dog letting me know.

Originally posted by circuitsports
reply to post by tangonine

 

I do not pretend to be an expert but I am aware that trained professionals like the police have a 3 in 10 hit average in shootouts - which are typically line of sight short distances and with ambient or daytime lighting.

If you have 3 people in your home with 9 rounds in your shotgun I hope your a good shot.

As for a first tool I believe you arent familiar with the average home invasion or robbery situation, your first tool is your head. Your house is filled with things that arent worth your life so collecting yourself and your family and getting out of danger is your only real priority.

Stopping to engage in a possible gun fight with prepared criminals is your last resort, remember you are playing there game, you are reacting to there moves.

A friend of mine trains women for defensive situations and she found about 80% of the women who used a firearm for protection had it taken away and used against them vs over 90% that were successful at running away. You might think you can beat these odds but is your life worth it?

Which btw comes to the second most important tool your health, you may be smart enough to handle a situation but you should be fit enough to handle it as well especially in a shtf scenario?

edit on 17-8-2011 by circuitsports because: (no reason given)

I'm actually at a disadvantage in this conversation, because I am trained in CQC. I sometimes fail to remember that your garden variety civilian isn't.

My wife, on the other hand, has the following directive, after I give her the handgun, at 0200 when the glass breaks: "do NOT shoot unless I go down. I don't need a .40 round in my spine from you." Bless her heart, she did 20 years in the military but handing her a pistol elicits the same response you'd get if you handed her a pile of goat intestines.

and yeah, if 3 people come into my home and I have only my shotgun, I'll put 2 on the ground and the third will run. I'm a very good shot.

Originally posted by canselmi
After my home was broken into, I bought a pistol which did make me feel safer. Later I also bought a Doberman, and let me tell you, I definitely feel much, much safer with the dog than the gun.
The dog will hear things that I don't. She is always alert, ready and most importantly can respond immediately. (I may not be near my gun when someone breaks in). When I'm in the shower and think I may have heard a noise, I'm not worried because I know no one can come inside my house without the dog letting me know.

Yup. Dogs make the difference. I have 2 german shepherds that hate everyone but me and my wife. They're both schutzen trained. Not attack, but both are bomb/drug dogs. Still.

reply to post by thinkingthing


Just an opinion from an ol US Marine here. You do not need anything that relies on batteries other than a LED flashlight anything else is going to go to waste in shtf situation and use up batteries. Baseball bat...get wooden not aluminum or any other metal. Survival knife is good...thick bladed machete with a saw edge is good too and cheap. Hatchet is very good. You WILL need to get a firearm. Being a purty young lady you would do well with a 20 inch barreled .20 ga pump shotgun. Buckshot ammo and rifled slug ammo is cheap and plenty. You can get one for around 200 dollars in the New England Firearms Pardner Pump. I have one and it is absolutely solid. The recoil is reduced and you can really dump some lead with a .20 ga and it has about 80% of the power of a 12 ga which is plenty to take down a 2 legged threat. Firearms can be very intimidating, so if you have no experience find a friend or family member that knows how to teach, shoot, and do it safely. You dont need a cocky know it all teaching you how to defend yourself or your family. There are also very good trainers out there that you can pay and go through their course. Seek realistic training...shooting on a range teaches you to shoot on a range, not to shoot when under immense stress. Your body will sometimes not cooperate when highly stressed so you need to know how to counter that and control yourself. If you have to defend your family in a home with a firearm at night train for that and prepare to be blind and deaf afterwards from shooting. Have a protection plan for your family. Get candles and matches or lighters, food, water, blankets for emergency. Get an awesome first aid kit. Well, Get 10 of them. Hope you have fun with this stuff you can get pretty creative...other members have really good info...

solid post Victor. Can't overemphasize the first aid kit x10 enough. just band-aids aren't enough. Go hit a website that sells first responder packs and get a couple. Better to never need what you have than need what you don't.

Originally posted by circuitsports
I do not agree with this training regement - a very wise man once said "practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect"
...

Yes, it is true that stunguns/zappers and pellet guns do not have the recoil that a real weapon has, and ultimately if anyone wants to really learn how to use a gun/rifle, they have to get a real one. But for people who are afraid or uneasy, for whatever reason, about guns, stun guns/zappers and pellet guns will slowly help them get used to guns.

Also, as i noted in my earlier post it is a lot cheaper and easier to get pellet ammo, than getting gun/rifle ammo. You can buy about 25 thousand - 50 thousand pellets for the price that would take you to buy 100 rounds of 9 mm ammo.

A pellet gun/rifle are also good for hunting small game including rabbits, squirrels, rats, other rodents and birds. But do not try hunting larger game with a regular pellet gun/rifle, because you will probably just make the game you are hunting angry.

There are some very expensive pellet rifle manufacturers who make big bore air rifles that can be used to hunt even larger game, but these are the more expensive variety of air rifles.

Examples of more expensive air rifles are for example.

Korean large game big bore air rifles.

The ShinSung Dragon Slayer

The ShinSung Career 707 9mm

The Sam Yang Big Bore 909

Ammunition

Airguns are a lot more finicky about ammunition than firearms as a rule, so it makes sense to try a few different bullets to find the one that works the best in your specific gun. There are a variety of bullet weights and shapes available to the big bore airgun hunter. You can use pellets that are made to order for these guns; I shoot the 170, 200, and 220 grain versions through the 909. You can use bullets that are made for muzzle loaders, which opens many options, or if so inclined you can also caste your own bullets. As mentioned, for the Career 707 the bullets are limited to the 77 grain Eu Jin, but the Fire 201 can shoot a much wider range of bullets, including cast bullets made for automatic pistols. For the Dragonslayer, the TC and Hornaday 190 grain roundball works very well, as it does everything I want with respect to accuracy and terminal performance.

www.airgundepot.com...

Benjamin Rogue .357 Air Rifle.

What game can be taken?

The Rogue is ideal for a variety of game, from raccoons and prairie dogs to coyotes and hogs up to 200 pounds.

The downsizes of using the above more expensive air rifles are for example recoil.

How much recoil is there?
The Rogue has a recoil similar to a rimfire rifle.

Can any .357 caliber bullet be used?
Due to the unique barrel rifling of the Rogue, only soft lead bullets without lubrication in .357 caliber should be used.

Can the Rogue be filled with a hand pump?
No. The Rogue's regulator requires a slow but constant supply of clean dry air so a scuba or HPA tank is recommended. Because the Rogue has a capacity of 3000psi, we recommend a 4500psi tank. We offer fittings for most power sources.

Are the electronics waterproof?
No. All electronics are conformal coated to make them weather resistant.

How quiet is the Rogue?
Depending on the settings of the EPiC panel, noise levels average 88dB. This is similar to a .22 rimfire. For comparison, the normal talking voice is 60-70dB.

Is it legal to hunt in my state with the Rogue?
Nearly all states allow some form of hunting with airguns. We recommend you consult your state regulations and local ordinances before doing so.

www.crosman.com...

traqulizer guns tazer guns stunn guns lol

Originally posted by thinkingthing
We have been putting off getting a gun for a while. Debating the issue. Neither of us have really ever handled a gun before. We know nothing about the subject and are quite intimidated by it. We do plan on getting one real soon, but have been so busy with moving, starting new jobs, registering kids in school, etc. I am afraid the SHTF scenario may go down before we get around to buying one and learning how to use it.

What are other effective ways of protecting ourselves and our belongings? Assuming a shelter in place situation. I plan on getting pepper spray and a good survival knife. What are some other things I should consider?

Also, what if I'm caught totally off guard? What are the best makeshift weapons and methods of protection, using common household items?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

are you good at building things?

hidden rooms are always a great safety addition for your family.

there are always quality katana's, tomahawks, crossbows, throwing knives, poison darts.

if your just looking for a home defense gun I would recommend a shot gun with a short barrel and a collapsible stock. a shot gun will put anyone to sleep for good. but it will not over penetrate the walls and risk harming your family. most guns will kill the bad guy, the the bullet will go through every wall in your house and then some.. putting everyone in its path in great danger. I have plenty of guns that are full out tactical rifles and pistols, but my remington 870 shot gun is my home defense.