America didn't do much in World War II (in Europe)

reply to post by michael1983l


Yeah I guess all the equipment we gave through the lend/lease program was just sitting in warehouses collecting dust. By the way, my dad is a WWII veteran, and fought in the Battle of the Bulge. While your prima-donna Montgomery couldn't get his ass in gear to rescue Bastogne, Patton and his 3rd Army (which my Dad was a part of) marched further and faster than any Army had ever done before and routed the Germans (with a little help from the weather finally clearing up over the Ardennes).

While I salute the tenacity, bravery and stoic humor the Brits exchibited during the Battle of Britian, and in North Africa, you cannot discount the huge value of the mitlary equipment you got from us before our entrance in December 1941.

Subject: AMAZING WWII AIRCRAFT FACTS
Amazing WWII Aircraft Facts


No matter how one looks at it, these are incredible statistics. Aside from the figures on aircraft, consider this statement from the article: On average 6600 American service men died per MONTH, during WWII (about 220 a day). - - - - - -


Most Americans who were not adults during WWII have no understanding of the magnitude of it. This listing of some of the aircraft facts gives a bit of insight to it.

276,000 aircraft manufactured in the US.
43,000 planes lost overseas, including 23,000 in combat.
14,000 lost in the continental U.S.

The US civilian population maintained a dedicated effort for four years, many working long hours seven days per week and often also volunteering for other work. WWII was the largest human effort in history.


Statistics from Flight Journal magazine.

THE COST of DOING BUSINESS
---- The staggering cost of war.

THE PRICE OF VICTORY (cost of an aircraft in WWII dollars)
B-17 $204,370. P-40 $44,892.
B-24 $215,516. P-47 $85,578.
B-25 $142,194. P-51 $51,572.
B-26 $192,426. C-47 $88,574.
B-29 $605,360. PT-17 $15,052.
P-38 $97,147. AT-6 $22,952.

PLANES A DAY WORLDWIDE
From Germany's invasion of Poland Sept. 1, 1939 and ending with Japan's surrender Sept. 2, 1945 --- 2,433 days. From 1942 onward, America averaged 170 planes lost a day.

How many is a 1,000 planes? B-17 production (12,731) wingtip to wingtip would extend 250 miles. 1,000 B-17s carried 2.5 million gallons of high octane fuel and required 10,000 airmen to fly and fight them.

THE NUMBERS GAME
9.7 billion gallons of gasoline consumed, 1942-1945.
107.8 million hours flown, 1943-1945.
459.7 billion rounds of aircraft ammo fired overseas, 1942-1945.
7.9 million bombs dropped overseas, 1943-1945.
2.3 million combat sorties, 1941-1945 (one sortie = one takeoff).
299,230 aircraft accepted, 1940-1945.
808,471 aircraft engines accepted, 1940-1945.
799,972 propellers accepted, 1940-1945.

WWII MOST-PRODUCED COMBAT AIRCRAFT
Ilyushin IL-2 Sturmovik 36,183


Yakolev Yak-1,-3,-7, -9 31,000+


Messerschmitt Bf-109 30,480



Focke-Wulf Fw-190 29,001



Supermarine Spitfire/Seafire 20,351



Convair B-24/PB4Y Liberator/Privateer 18,482



Republic P-47 Thunderbolt 15,686



North American P-51 Mustang 15,875



Junkers Ju-88 15,000



Hawker Hurricane 14,533



Curtiss P-40 Warhawk 13,738



Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress 12,731



Vought F4U Corsair 12,571



Grumman F6F Hellcat 12,275



Petlyakov Pe-2 11,400



Lockheed P-38 Lightning 10,037



Mitsubishi A6M Zero 10,449



North American B-25 Mitchell 9,984



Lavochkin LaGG-5 9,920

Note: The LaGG-5 was produced with both water-cooled (top) and air-cooled (bottom) engines.



Grumman TBM Avenger 9,837



Bell P-39 Airacobra 9,584



Nakajima Ki-43 Oscar 5,919



DeHavilland Mosquito 7,780



Avro Lancaster 7,377



Heinkel He-111 6,508



Handley-Page Halifax 6,176



Messerschmitt Bf-110 6,150



Lavochkin LaGG-7 5,753



Boeing B-29 Superfortress 3,970



Short Stirling 2,383




Sources: Rene Francillon, Japanese Aircraft of the Pacific war; Cajus Bekker, The Luftwaffe Diaries; Ray Wagner, American Combat Planes; Wikipedia.


According to the AAF Statistical Digest, in less than four years (December 1941- August 1945), the US Army Air Forces lost 14,903 pilots, aircrew and assorted personnel plus 13,873 airplanes --- inside the continental United States. They were the result of 52,651 aircraft accidents (6,039 involving fatalities) in 45 months.

Think about those numbers. They average 1,170 aircraft accidents per month---- nearly 40 a day. (Less than one accident in four resulted in totaled aircraft, however.)
It gets worse.....
Almost 1,000 Army planes disappeared en route from the US to foreign climes. But an eye-watering 43,581 aircraft were lost overseas including 22,948 on combat missions (18,418 against the Western Axis) and 20,633 attributed to non-combat causes overseas.

In a single 376 plane raid in August 1943, 60 B-17s were shot down. That was a 16 percent loss rate and meant 600 empty bunks in England. In 1942-43 it was statistically impossible for bomber crews to complete a 25-mission tour in Europe.
Pacific theatre losses were far less (4,530 in combat) owing to smaller forces committed. The worst B-29 mission, against Tokyo on May 25, 1945, cost 26 Superfortresses, 5.6 percent of the 464 dispatched from the Marianas.
On average, 6,600 American servicemen died per month during WWII, about 220 a day. By the end of the war, over 40,000 airmen were killed in combat theatres and another 18,000 wounded. Some 12,000 missing men were declared dead, including a number "liberated" by the Soviets but never returned. More than 41,000 were captured, half of the 5,400 held by the Japanese died in captivity, compared with one-tenth in German hands. Total combat casualties were pegged at 121,867.

US manpower made up the deficit. The AAF's peak strength was reached in 1944 with 2,372,000 personnel, nearly twice the previous year's figure.
The losses were huge---but so were production totals. From 1941 through 1945, American industry delivered more than 276,000 military aircraft. That number was enough not only for US Army, Navy and Marine Corps, but for allies as diverse as Britain, Australia, China and Russia. In fact, from 1943 onward, America produced more planes than Britain and Russia combined. And more than Germany and Japan together 1941-45.
However, our enemies took massive losses. Through much of 1944, the Luftwaffe sustained uncontrolled hemorrhaging, reaching 25 percent of aircrews and 40 planes a month. And in late 1944 into 1945, nearly half the pilots in Japanese squadrons had flown fewer than 200 hours. The disparity of two years before had been completely reversed.


Experience Level:
Uncle Sam sent many of his sons to war with absolute minimums of training. Some fighter pilots entered combat in 1942 with less than one hour in their assigned aircraft.
The 357th Fighter Group (often known as The Yoxford Boys) went to England in late 1943 having trained on P-39s. The group never saw a Mustang until shortly before its first combat mission.
A high-time P-51 pilot had 30 hours in type. Many had fewer than five hours. Some had one hour.
With arrival of new aircraft, many combat units transitioned in combat. The attitude was, "They all have a stick and a throttle. Go fly `em." When the famed 4th Fighter Group converted from P-47s to P-51s in February 1944, there was no time to stand down for an orderly transition. The Group commander, Col. Donald Blakeslee, said, "You can learn to fly `51s on the way to the target.

A future P-47 ace said, "I was sent to England to die." He was not alone. Some fighter pilots tucked their wheels in the well on their first combat mission with one previous flight in the aircraft. Meanwhile, many bomber crews were still learning their trade: of Jimmy Doolittle's 15 pilots on the April 1942 Tokyo raid, only five had won their wings before 1941. All but one of the 16 copilots were less than a year out of flight school.

In WWII flying safety took a back seat to combat. The AAF's worst accident rate was recorded by the A-36 Invader version of the P-51: a staggering 274 accidents per 100,000 flying hours. Next worst were the P-39 at 245, the P-40 at 188, and the P-38 at 139. All were Allison powered.

Bomber wrecks were fewer but more expensive. The B-17 and B-24 averaged 30 and 35 accidents per 100,000 flight hours, respectively-- a horrific figure considering that from 1980 to 2000 the Air Force's major mishap rate was less than 2.
The B-29 was even worse at 40; the world's most sophisticated, most capable and most expensive bomber was too urgently needed to stand down for mere safety reasons. The AAF set a reasonably high standard for B-29 pilots, but the desired figures were seldom attained.
The original cadre of the 58th Bomb Wing was to have 400 hours of multi-engine time, but there were not enough experienced pilots to meet the criterion. Only ten percent had overseas experience. Conversely, when a $2.1 billion B-2 crashed in 2008, the Air Force initiated a two-month "safety pause" rather than declare a "stand down", let alone grounding.

The B-29 was no better for maintenance. Though the R3350 was known as a complicated, troublesome power-plant, no more than half the mechanics had previous experience with the Duplex Cyclone. But they made it work.


Navigators:
Perhaps the greatest unsung success story of AAF training was Navigators. The Army graduated some 50,000 during the War. And many had never flown out of sight of land before leaving "Uncle Sugar" for a war zone. Yet the huge majority found their way across oceans and continents without getting lost or running out of fuel --- a stirring tribute to the AAF's educational establishments.


Cadet To Colonel:
It was possible for a flying cadet at the time of Pearl Harbor to finish the war with eagles on his shoulders. That was the record of John D. Landers, a 21-year-old Texan, who was commissioned a second lieutenant on December 12, 1941. He joined his combat squadron with 209 hours total flight time, including 2½ in P-40s. He finished the war as a full colonel, commanding an 8th Air Force Group --- at age 24.
As the training pipeline filled up, however those low figures became exceptions.
By early 1944, the average AAF fighter pilot entering combat had logged at least 450 hours, usually including 250 hours in training. At the same time, many captains and first lieutenants claimed over 600 hours.


FACT:
At its height in mid-1944, the Army Air Forces had 2.6 million people and nearly 80,000 aircraft of all types.
Today the US Air Force employs 327,000 active personnel (plus 170,000 civilians) with 5,500+ manned and perhaps 200 unmanned aircraft.
The 2009 figures represent about 12 percent of the manpower and 7 percent of the airplanes of the WWII peak.

IN SUMMATION:
Whether there will ever be another war like that experienced in 1940-45 is doubtful, as fighters and bombers have given way to helicopters and remotely-controlled drones over Afghanistan and Iraq. But within living memory, men left the earth in 1,000-plane formations and fought major battles five miles high, leaving a legacy that remains timeless








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Germany was never trying to win the fight against Great Britain and the US on the western front
Otherwise they would have never invaded Russia before invading England thereby making a 2 front war highly unlikely and victory truly possible and invading Russia after that which even Hitler couldn’t wait for England to be subdued would still be better then fully engaging in indiscriminant bombing of English cities and civilians lessening the English peoples will to fight a war after Dunkirk in May 1940 Which in itself calls into question the Nazis’ goal of conquering the world since the German held back for three days, thereby enabling British and French troops to escape.
www.scribd.com...

This along with many other blunders listed here for whatever reason given to explain for there incompetence should make one should question the purpose and motive behind them. the idea to bomb did serve to keep the general population terrorized from above made the people will the war to continue by strike fear into people, which in turn made them loath the Germans thereby compelling unity not just of people within Great Britain but because it was well publicized around the world but especially in the United States where public opinion had great empathy for the plight of the English people against the German aggression and for the occupied French population

With the US English and French people each experiencing the realities of the wars intrusion into their daily lives to be more or less a fearful inconvenience with most in the US being the greatest removed often being effect only by shortages of goods, this being more prevalent in Great Britain and worse still in France which like Britain face the threat from indiscriminate bombing of cities and civilians but additionally people could be forced to work against their will making life for many more difficult which in addition to the holocaust which is the only real difference between Axis and Allies for the most part was starkly different from east to west with 90,000 or 26% of Jewish population being exterminated in France, where Jewish population in Eastern European countries like Poland who suffered an estimated 3 million or 90% of the Jewish population wiped-out this I find best personifies the disregard for human life both sides practiced in the east with widespread scorched earth tactics and large scale terror against civilians. With German and German-allied forces treating civilian populations with exceptional brutality, massacring villages and routinely killing civilian hostages.

That decisions where sometime made not to achieve victory for any one nation but it seems inoder to help prolong the conflict and the fact that Great Britain and France never experienced the destruction and atrocities that Eastern European countries and peoples had to. Which leads me to believe this to be the greatest Mind f*ck in history making the real goal behind WW2 to be the ensuring that Capitalism and Western Europe civilization dominate the world by making it seem like the hero instead of the lesser of the two Evil options

Nope, the Americans did nothing during the Second World War. Tell that to the relatives of the hundreds of thousands of dead men who are buried in war graves (just in Europe). Tell that to the long dead who lost their lives storming the beaches in Normandy. Tell that to the troops who fought alongside us Brits in North Africa and those who pushed back the Japs, whilst losing huge numbers.. Those that fought in Burma, Midway and other theatres of war, some of which you will probably never hear of.

But, above all. Remember all those people, soldiers and civilians, the majority who had no desire to fight and die.
Axis troops and Allied alike. Most were just poor souls, dragged away from their families and forced into killing each other. May they all rest in peace.

I can't even be bothered to get into this silly futile debate.

But I'll say this neither Britain, the United States or the Soviet Union could have won the war by themselves.

We all needed each other.

We were allies and we all fought and died.

What a truly awful thread. It started out bad and just kept rolling.

My 2p worth...

Quite a few Yanks joined the war early by going to Canada and then on to the UK. (A fair few fought in the BOB).


Official involvement came in many forms, crewing escort ships in the Atlantic, North African and Italian campaigns, daylight bombing and long range fighters over Europe, D day, the liberation of Holland, all the munitions and equipment that was made.

The list goes on, I don't think anyone who ever really gave it some thought could say they didn't do much. Similarly, anyone saying that the British and Commonwealth troops didn't do much is equally deluded.

What a stupid thread filled with people who just don't have a clue! At the end of the day, it was a joint effort, as simple as that. I would never turn around and say "oh, we won because of this country, or that country" as im not a child!

I am grateful for all the countries that helped during that horrible war. I am not ignorant or arragont to praise just one country during ww2.

A lot of Allies contributed the efforts in World War 2 so stop this who has the biggest d*ck or not. The truth is that without the US-lend lease then Europe would not hold on the Germany longer.

reply to post by misterbananas


Sept 3, 1939 Britian, France, Australia, and New Zealand declare war on Germany.
Dec 11, 1941 Germany declares war on US (the ONLY country Germany makes a formal declaration against)

Nov 8, 1942 Operation TORCH, US invades North Africa (fought Germans)
July 10, 1943 US and British land in Sicily (fought Germans there too....)
Sept 9, 1943 US and British land at Salerno, Italy (guess what, fought Germans)

and as others have pointed out the Russians lost more because they were fighting on thier own soil, plus Stalin forced high -risk attacks from his generals.
The Russians had 100,000 casualities from the all-out attack on Berlin that Stalin wanted, when they could have simply surrounded the city and used artillery and bombed them into submission.
Any other questions you need answered?

reply to post by misterbananas


The Americans did'nt exactly win the war, they only came in to it after Pearl Harbour and for one reason only.....to steal German technology known by the Americans. The USA sold military weapons and chemicals to both sides of the war so we know of their dirty double dealings for $$$.

The joint effort included mainly Britain and those from the Commonwealth nations, Russia & USA.

Originally posted by misterbananas


US Ammunition was being made in 1939 and sold to Nazi Germany until Decemeber 1941 which is when Pearl Harbour happened and then the USA declared war on Japan and then Germany, Japan's allie, declared war on the USA, the things sold to Germany until 1941 would include mortars and bullets.














My words:

Show proof of this statement. If the US was sending anyone ammo at this very early stage of the war it was to Great Britain and I don't believe that was the case either. You need to learn your history. Yes you are right the USSR did lose a higher percentage of the population in the war. Of course having the war in their front yard may have contributed to that.

edit on 8/16/2011 by americanbuffalo1 because: Just because I screwed up my posting

Getting sick of these threads.

The same old one-sided bollocks get's trotted out every time by both sides.

It's disrespectful to those who fought and whilst there maybe many unsavoury truths the biggest truth is we all needed each other.

reply to post by Freeborn


Amen.

Originally posted by michael1983l
The US sisn't join the war until they were forced to. That is nothing to be proud of.

More liked tricked into. It is our shame, don't get me wrong. Far less people could have died if we got in early enough to cut the war short. But at the same time it's not a matter of pride, it's a matter of fact that when the US joined, they gave it their all, instead of doing what they did during Vietnam. (Right or worng, if we were unified, that thing would have been won and quick. Same thing with this war.)

reply to post by therealcatman


He said Canada, figures
2nd line

reply to post by Rossa



GUYS! All they teach us about military history in Canada before grade 10 is a 30 minute assembly on Remembrance Day.

If you miss a few days of grade 10 history class you won't learn anything!!!!!!

It's not his fault they refuse to teach us anything besides "Lest we forget" and "Canadians are only Peace keepers".

Both of my grandfather’s fought in the war… my father’s father, lost his arm and a leg… my father’s mother lost four of her brothers… I can’t even begin to tell you the amount of deaths in my family…. May 9th was a very deep day to all of us, including little kids, grandkids as we mourned and respected the people who fought for our future… the amount of tears my grandma shed… it was so painful and even at early toddler age we understood the pain and sorrow this caused to our grandparents…. My grandfather passed away 5 years ago at a very old age… at the end he end up losing his second leg and he was very old but his heart was very strong… he suffered greatly and at the end was asking not to help him but let him die…

There is no debate… you need to look back and do some research…. Russia entered the war earlier and let me tell you forget about total of death… but to Stalin those were just statistics… no one cared…. You have to keep in mind on major thing… the war was on their land… America got lucky because of their location… they didn’t have to hide their kids in horse# from German’s… and didn’t America use this war to make money at first?

At the end of the day each person, let it be American, Russian or whatever lost loved ones… the amount of graveyards are unbearable…

I immigrated to this country as I child, teen, 20 Years ago… I went to school in both countries… I know history of both sides… I love both countries, they different, VERY different… I respect them both equally… however what I value the most is honesty… Russia gets the bigger credit for WWII…

While I am ever greatfull for Americas support and ruthless fighting spirit I cant help feeling that they didnt give a toss about the allies plight until they themselves were threatened. I like to think the UK would have declaired war with Germany right away had they done so on the US first.

But who knows? politics is an odd game and althought the politicians were slow to help that doesn't mean the American people were all against helping us out. I agree selling arms to our enemies is awful to but this happens all the time, even now in the UK our uregulated arms trade give our enemies weapons to use against us! A British soldier killed a few years back in Uganda was shot by a bullet made in the UK! It was bang in the paper double page story but noone cared. I guess if they are guna get guns they are guna get guns is the attitude so lets at least make money from our enemy> A shame.

You mean "U.S.A." didn't have much to do with the WW II in Europe or Rockefeller's and Rothchild's? Cuz Rockefeller's and Rothchild's financed Hitler. So I guess Rockefeller's and Rothchild's being jews, you are right - U.S. didn't have much to do with it

You should also know that US companies such as Standard Oil and US banking interests made MILLIONS throughout the entire war aiding the enemy.

The Luftwaffe planes were unable to fly without a specific fuel additive that was ONLY made by Standard Oil, and was sold to the Nazis throughout the war, even after the US declared war on Germany, and the war wouldn't have been possible at all without funding from bankers in both the USA and the UK.

The USA did plenty to help out in WW2. Unfortunately, a large part of that help was to Nazi Germany.