Italy Bans the Burka In Public

Following the French nations lead, Italy has now banned the Burka , is this a good thing?
Or will it just push the Islamic Fundamentalist believers underground?
Is the Burkah reallly a threat , or is it a legitimate style of dress?
In reality it is a fashion.
Its an interesting move by the Italians?

In all honesty I see no reason for the ban. (but that is probably just my thoughts based on what the people around here dress up like)

It seems more confrontational than anything else and in my opinion the approach currently being used does not address the actual underlying concerns and issues with religion.

I agree, too an extent, that it should be banned. For example, if you're in a bank, airport or any other similar places then yes it should definitely be banned. If people started to walk around those areas in balaclava's, you would understand them being stopped an ordered to remove their balaclava, so the principles are the same.
Also, the burqa did not come into Islam law until the 10th century, to place women at a lower class to men. Should look up Qasim Amin, an Egyptian from the later 19th/early 20th century, who fought against the practice vieling.

This will just piss off more muslims, why is that happening? because someone wants the muslims to get angry and start attacking europe

oh yes women who are so humble and faithful to god that who by choice (i can proove this, not only in western countries) wear their hijabs daily are being punished. for what? security reasons? is this not then a prime example of rights being taken away for simple security. i dont know about you but i will take freedom and rights over security ANY day. i can PROTECT MYSELF. AND so can you. this is bad. what about the muslims who lived in italy for generations? forced to move/ change their CULTURE? what is this? what is this world we live in.

reply to post by Trolloks


But going into a bank of petrol station just requires you to remove a head covering such as a helmet or balaclava, a rule that should be applied across the board, however we do not ban balaclavas outright.. so in my opinion people should be allowed to dress up how they wish, but all should abide by the same rules..

Although I don't like Islam in general and think it's an oppressive, ruthless, irrational belief system with little regard towards personal [female] liberty; I don't see why somebody's choice of dress should be banned. If there was some abundance of crime/murder related to burkas, perhaps. But I assume it's just politicians in Italy don't favor Muslims or are intimidated by the caliphate infiltration rumors floating around.

Originally posted by Trolloks
I agree, too an extent, that it should be banned. For example, if you're in a bank, airport or any other similar places then yes it should definitely be banned. If people started to walk around those areas in balaclava's, you would understand them being stopped an ordered to remove their balaclava, so the principles are the same.
Also, the burqa did not come into Islam law until the 10th century, to place women at a lower class to men. Should look up Qasim Amin, an Egyptian from the later 19th/early 20th century, who fought against the practice vieling.

Good balance post in my humble opinion, and provides factual info that most wouldn't know.

reply to post by thoughtsfull


When in a bank or making a delivery, it is illegal to wear a helmet, even if the visor is down, the whole thing has to come off. A balaclava would not be allowed, the face must be shown, so yes, burqa's should be banned from banks.
The burqa has been banned from many places in history before, most interestingly Iran in 1935.
I also believe that driving licences should not have a photo of someone wearing a burqa, and upon request (in a driving offence) the burqa should be removed to check identity.

I am not sugesting an all out ban on the burqa, but in certain circumstances it should be removed.

reply to post by Raelsatu


you are perfectly correct. the problem islam and women, it is that a young women must experience the different sides of herself (hormones n such) in the most extreme times while a teenager. i think problems arise once a father sees his daughter finding interest in other men, or not being so religious, these things although reasonable to us could break a muslim fathers heart, and to even some extremist fathers will cause them beat, even in some RARE cases murder their children. i am no way justifying that, but keep in mind we all come in the image of god, there will always be an innocent rational side to each of us.

Originally posted by Trolloks
reply to post by thoughtsfull

 

When in a bank or making a delivery, it is illegal to wear a helmet, even if the visor is down, the whole thing has to come off. A balaclava would not be allowed, the face must be shown, so yes, burqa's should be banned from banks.
The burqa has been banned from many places in history before, most interestingly Iran in 1935.
I also believe that driving licences should not have a photo of someone wearing a burqa, and upon request (in a driving offence) the burqa should be removed to check identity.

I am not sugesting an all out ban on the burqa, but in certain circumstances it should be removed.

I feel the same way and that laws should be fair and balanced.. and if the law dictates head coverings should be removed then those rules should apply to everyone..

reply to post by Trolloks


I live in an arabic country and i have to ask where did you get your information that the burka was a way for the men to make women seem lower in class.

it is more than that.

It was actually worn long before many of the key stories of the Qu'ran take place.

It is actually worn so that the women can keep their innocence and not be perved on by men who dont get much. It is actually a way to show women that they are more important and that they deserve their innocence more than men.

Just because the country that you live in is against them and make up propaganda to get a ban on them does not make their word the underlining fact.

It is the country of origin that does, and thus take my word because i live there and as a result have done much research onto arabic traditions as i have lived here for 16 years

Get your facts right brother!

Peace too all

Originally posted by ShadowZion
reply to post by Trolloks

 

It was actually worn long before the story of the Qu'ran take place.

It is actually worn so that the women can keep their innocence and not be perved on by men who dont get much. It is actually a way to show women that they are more important and that they deserve their innocence more than men.

Get your facts right brother!

edit on 3-8-2011 by ShadowZion because: (no reason given)

It was actually worn long before the story of the Qu'ran take place
It was actually worn long before the story of the Qu'ran take place
It was actually worn long before the story of the Qu'ran take place

reply to post by Amassuo


never mind, i thought you were arguing against me.

My bad

reply to post by ShadowZion


I have you know my facts are correct, and the burqa has changed its sybloism many times over the years, and yes it was first warn by the Assyrian Empire back in 5000bc, but as you stated, BEFORE the qu'ran, and was only warn by Muslims a centry after it was written.

The information is all over the internet, have a look for yourself.

Within a minute of typing in "origins of the burqa" i found a nice little slide show for you that has many interesting facts, slide-show

By the way, its spelt "Burqa".

When discussion amongst politicians in France first began on the topic, it was under the context of the problem of identification, specifically pointed out that when the women come to deal with the social security office and pick up welfare checks, if they had their face covered, it was impossible to tell if they were the right person, or if the same woman could come pick up three checks in the same day! (since such a high number of our muslims are recieving welfare). Identification by the facial characteristics is used for security widely here, and facial covering is not allowed in many areas. If you go to a gas station and get gas, for example, you are obligated to take off your helmet and any face covering.

I don't know about Italy, but here the problem of having to make an exception for the Muslims (when the french have to obey these laws) was a provocative thing. To be fair, and loyal to the french values on laicism, they also forbid Christians from wearing things like crosses and crucifixes in the same situations.

I get rather exasperated when I see people overseas with strong opinions against these laws, because they really seem to have no idea of what the situation is like here with the Muslim population. They are asking them to integrate the culture a bit, but if you understand the wider problem we're having with them integrating the society at all, banning the burka is a rather weak and probably ineffectual gesture at this point.

Originally posted by Trolloks

By the way, its spelt "Burqa".

Hahaha....... actually it isn't spelled in that alphabet at all, so when we start using a totally different language and alphabet, we can write it however we want, as long as phonetically it ends up as close as we can get to the pronunciation. (like the Quaddafi / Kaddafi thing)

In the end perhaps we were all human beings at the start.
Then the powerful said how do we control those we desire to rule?
We all wish to be good,( ok most) thats why we are special, why God still allows us to continue , but some , the very charismatic and cunning, want to be God.
So Gods Laws had to be imagined, and the hearts of man had to be erased and replaced with religious tracts.
A woman is beautiful,if she is strong she would know ..temptations reward is initially a brief fiery star, but in the end an empty space, full of regret.
The Burkah is a pre emptive manoeuvere against temptation....but sadly denies purity before it can be put into effect.
If we a re truly wise we will listen to wisdom that echoes wisdom, not men that echoe themselves.

Well no shock here...

Italy (i know this is a sweeping generalisation) is a relativley racist country and ver christian, there general pop music at times has been very anti jew, and generally arnt overly accepting of non italians or at best non europeans...

I in no way condone this but i love italy as a country, been many times and love the atmosphere and the people (and the food)

now from a purley objective stand point... there has been tests done to prove airport officials police etc are scared to ask women to remove there Burka as they as scared of the backlash... the burka is nothing more than "traditional dress" (in quotations as its a relativley new traditional outfit for the muslim comunity)

at no point is this a religous thing.. this is quite simply the same as wearing a crash helmet in a bank, or as someone said a balaclava... or even a halloween mask or a ninja outfit... none nothing that obscures your face is generally accepted in modern society as it suggests you are trying to hide from somthing,

this is just applying a rule a new type of dress (in the grand scheme of popularity in the western world) that we have always had applied to other similar face hiding clothing.


So we are clear... i dont think it should be banned.. thats stupid, but face/head coverings should be removed and expected to be removed if there is a rule that says so... no helmets no balaclava's no burka's seems only fair...

the only reason i see for them to want to ban the burka as they have previously came up against issues with the removal of the head covering when it should be removed, and to prevent the arguments/justification and backlash when requesting removal, it might be viewed as easier to outright ban it.

Just my thoughts

Good on Italy. The burka denies a woman her identity and individuality and that is a huge price to pay for a religious belief. I wonder if women were ever allowed to privately vote on this garb how they would actually vote for their freedom from it. Certainly there would be those who love it, can't be bothered or can't face change, but I suspect there is also a number in there who would burn it merrily. It poses the question, if you can't do without your burka why come over to a non Islamic country to live, where you know you are deliberately going to be controversial? Ha Ha because you are a tolerant country doesn't wash easily when the burka and the alternative sharia law is lumped into a condition of our being 'honoured' by people leaping into western countries.

The burka is a statement of women's subjugaton and to trot it out in countries where women have fought very hard for their rights is for some an insult and a means of dragging women backwards. Its also a hideous and ugly piece of clothing designed to make a woman less feminine, lumpy and ugly. The argument put forward based on modesty falls short because sheer uglyness does not create a modestly dressed individual. (one needs to bear in mind that this modesty idea comes from the area of the world that gave us the wondrous belly dancing). As pointed out earlier this has nothing to do with Mohammed it seems more to come from a woman hater than a truly religious individual. I can understand its merits in the desert where protection from the sun and sand's needed, but not on the streets of Europe. Its also works as an isolationist thing and aids keeping select little groups together who don't want to integrate. I don't see the religious aspect of a burka because throughout the world many women will cover their heads with hats or scarves when entering a synagog,mosque or church etc.

An earlier poster mentioned the idea that it hides teenage angst and the upset some poor Muslim father would naturaly feel if his daughter were to grow up/defy him. Fathers all over the world go through that stage but many are pleased their daughters have the confidence to question and know their own minds. As women well past teenage wear the burka teenage angst doesn't really qualify it for me. Its often forgotten that because of its camouflage attributes it acts as a perfect means for men to don it and escape from crimes and more seriously it has the capability of hiding weapons under it. Its actually when used that way a security risk. Another point is that its an excellent means of hiding shoplifting.

I wonder how I would feel if I were stuck in the same outer clothing for the whole of my adult life, it just wouldn't happen. I don't avidly follow fashion but there is a dullness about the same black garb which seems stifling.



Something I have noticed on the tv coverage is that more and more women in countries like Egpt are stopping wearing even the scarf in public. My own Iranian friends here in the UK don't wear Islamic dress or scarves, in fact she teaches exercise and looks fabulous. A burka would stop her life and earnings were any of that tosh to be introduced here.

I'm always amazed by those who support a ban on the burqa, under the pretense that it is supposedly a symbol of female oppression.

So, they want to ban the choice of clothing that a woman can wear, under the guise of combating female oppression.

That's some seriously messed-up and contradictory ''logic''. Talk about doublespeak !


The whole burqa situation is a non-issue. The simple, common-sense approach is to not ban the burqa or niqab, but to not allow women wearing these garments into places where others are required to show their face, such as government buildings, banks etc.

That way, everyone is treated equally, without one culture getting special dispensation to not abide by the rules that everyone else has to adhere to, while at the same time, not legally restricting items of clothing that a woman may choose to wear.