Atheism is just plain stupid.

reply to post by Doublemint


I had prepared a much longer reply but with this quote you demonstrate my point succinctly.

If you don't make a choice then you don't believe.

Exactly.

I don’t know whether god exists or not, I do not choose to believe that one exists nor do I choose to believe that one does not exist therefore in your own words I do not believe in a god.

If I do not believe in a god I am by definition an atheist even though I say I do not know whether or not god actually exists.

You’re making it far more complicated than it really is.

reply to post by Mike_A


I have read every post in this thread, some even multiple times. The plain and simple fact of the matter is if you believe God DOES NOT exist then and ONLY then, you are an athiest.

If you don't believe in God because you simply don't know or have enough evidence to prove or disprove the existence of a God YOU ARE AGNOSTIC.

Athiests BELIEVE that there is no God plain and simple. There is no in-between beliefe its black and white either or it cannot be both UNLESS you claim to be atheist agnostic.

en.m.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by XJMatt


Your post makes no sense. On the one hand you say that you’re atheist only if you believe god does not exist and then on the other you say “unless you claim to be atheist agnostic”. Which is it?

Your link is also pretty clear in its agreement with everything I have said.

Within agnosticism there are agnostic atheists (who do not believe any deity exists, but do not deny it as a possibility)

...

Agnostic atheists are atheistic because they do not have belief in the existence of any deity, and agnostic because they do not claim to know that a deity does not exist

en.m.wikipedia.org...

If you also look up the article on atheism you will see that it too agrees with everything I have said.

Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.[1] In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.[2] Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist.[3] Atheism is contrasted with theism,[4][5] which in its most general form is the belief that at least one deity exists.[5][6]

en.wikipedia.org...

There is also a good article on Agnostic Atheism

en.m.wikipedia.org...

I have also made it very clear throughout the thread that I am an agnostic atheist but nevertheless an atheist.

Originally posted by Mike_A
reply to post by Doublemint

 

I had prepared a much longer reply but with this quote you demonstrate my point succinctly.

If you don't make a choice then you don't believe.

Exactly.

I don’t know whether god exists or not, I do not choose to believe that one exists nor do I choose to believe that one does not exist therefore in your own words I do not believe in a god.

If I do not believe in a god I am by definition an atheist even though I say I do not know whether or not god actually exists.

You’re making it far more complicated than it really is.

Thats the default position though which is agnostic. Atheist say they don't believe in god an agnostic person would not say that they do not believe in god.

I just think atheist make a claim while agnostics do not. and that agnostics atheist are just agnostics that would rather be atheist but do not want to let go of theism.

I understand what you have said and I agree with most of it and we could go around and around forever probably.

reply to post by Mike_A


My post actually makes perfect sense. As I stated an "Athiest" flat out believes God DOES NOT exist. Meaning they don't even leave room for the possibility God might exist.

An agnostic doesn't. Believe God exists or doesn't exist meaning they don't have enough evidence to stake a claim either way.

An agnostic athiest generally believes God doesn't exist but are open to the idea that one might.

The are all 3 completely different things. While I agree agnostic athiest ARE still athiest, they are not true athiest and tend to lean more towards the agnostic beliefs.

IMHO agnostic athiest just lack the fortitude to make a decision. So they use a blanket term to cover their bases. A true athiest just flat out doesn't believe and have the conviction to say it.

reply to post by XJMatt


actually I read your post a couple of times I think you are missing a few words. It happens to me all the time some times I even proof read and still mess things up.

reply to post by Doublemint


Just answer these few questions for me.

The definition of atheism is the lack of belief in a god.

If I say that I don’t know whether god exists or not is it correct to say that I believe in god?

If not then is it not the case that I must necessarily lack a belief in god?

If I therefore lack a belief in god am I then not an atheist as per the definition of the word despite not claiming that god does not exist?


reply to post by XJMatt


Your own source, the site that you posted to back up your assertion, shows that you are wrong. Why post the link if you’re going to flat out contradict it?

Again, according to the link you posted:

Agnostic atheists are atheistic because they do not have belief in the existence of any deity, and agnostic because they do not claim to know that a deity does not exist

This whole “true atheist” thing is your own personal definition, not one that holds any meaning outside of your own mind.

An atheist is an atheist if he or she satisfies the conditions of not believing in a supreme being or beings; both agnostic and what you call “true” atheists satisfy this condition.

Originally posted by Mike_A
reply to post by Doublemint

 

Just answer these few questions for me.

The definition of atheism is the lack of belief in a god.

If I say that I don’t know whether god exists or not is it correct to say that I believe in god?

If not then is it not the case that I must necessarily lack a belief in god?

If I therefore lack a belief in god am I then not an atheist as per the definition of the word despite not claiming that god does not exist?

If I don't know whether god exists or not it is incorrect to say that I believe in god.

If I don't belief in then I do lack a belief in god.

Then I'm an atheist by definition of the word despite not claiming that god does not exist.

I realized this when I wrote what you quoted me saying last post of yours. I know understand how an agnostic atheist thinks and I thank you for showing me.

All agnostics are agnostic atheist by default or they would be theist, but they only ones to claim the tittle of agnostic atheist are the agnostics that claim to not believe in god those that don't claim to not believe in god are just taking the default possition.

Thats the only differnce I can see the agnostic atheist say it while the agnostics dont or haven't come to that part of the journy yet.

Another thing why I would call myself an agnostic and not an agnostic atheist I diss like the word atheist just as much as theist.

reply to post by Mike_A


Per the Merriam Webster dictionary the definition of an athiest is "Someone who BELIEVES there IS NO God period.

i.word.com...

It might show up as a mobile site since I am on an android tablet.

If you believe there may or may not be a God but can't chose either way you are agnostic period end of discussion.

Now if you are agnostic athiest you don't truly believe there IS NO GOD PERIOD meaning you aren't an athiest since athiest only and truly believe there absolutely proof positive is not a God. Athiest do not even entertain the idea that there may be a God. Which is what I mean by "true athiest"

As I said earlier agnostic athiest is nothing more then a blanket term for people that can't make up there mind.

If yougave even the slightest open mindedness to accept there MAY be a good then truly you are an agnostic. Athiests believe with all there might that a deity such as good simply DOES NOT/ CANNOT exist period.

Notice the definition says " one that believes there is NO deity" and it doesnt say one that is open to the idea of a deity

reply to post by XJMatt


If you read all the post you would see there is a bit more to agnostic athiest other than just a blank term so they can always be right. and that all agnostics are atheist agnostics but in the end everyone is an agnostic. why?

Because agnosticsim deals with knowing if god is real or not. atheism deals with believing in no god. theism deals with believing in god. neither atheisim or theism deals with knowing if god is real or not.

If we were playing chess I think this would be checkmate

reply to post by Doublemint


I’ve sent you a pm.

reply to post by XJMatt


No your link doesn’t work.

However here is a link to Merriam Webster;

Atheism

1 archaic : ungodliness, wickedness
2 a : a disbelief in the existence of deity
b : the doctrine that there is no deity

www.merriam-webster.com...

Or how about the Oxford English;

Atheism

disbelief in the existence of God or gods.

oxforddictionaries.com...

Atheist

a person who does not believe in the existence of God or gods

oxforddictionaries.com...

Plus the link you originally posted and the two that I added.

But why bother with links or any source at all, you’ve already posted one and then completely ignored it when I pointed out that it totally contradicted you.

It’s quite clear that you’re just going to make up your own definition according to how it suites the argument.

Ultimately whether you call me an agnostic, agnostic atheist or “true atheist” my position remains the same: I do not believe in a god but I cannot say that one does not exist.

My only reason for posting in this thread was to point out to those non atheists who think they know what atheists believe that not all those identifying as atheists make the claim that there is no supreme being. You can tell them that they’re not really atheists all you like but they’re still going to call themselves atheists so you should get used to the fact that when talking to an atheists your definition, right or wrong, means squat.

reply to post by Doublemint


I'm not sure, I don't play chess..... care for a game of poker or checkers perhaps?

All I was stating is that atheists per definition believe that there is NO GOD period.
So.to me IMHO an agnostic athiest truly Cannot be both which is why I called it a blanket term. Are you truly an athiest or are you truly agnostic?

See the blanketing effect of agnostic athiest? But I truly do not want to be ignorant so I am going to research more on the agnostic athiest subject and see if I can grasp it better.

Matt

The REAL reason people start threads like this is that they take it personally. They hate atheists for attacking THEIR god. They aren't really defending a belief in higher being or "intelligence" in the general sense, it's all about their own religion. I understand that to a degree, because most of these threads are sponsored by Christians, and Christianity has the most flaws, inconsistencies, and contradictions than others, meaning it can be much more easily challenged and debunked, and believers feel obligated to defend it somehow, or appear "wrong" or stupid.

Whether you believe a god exists, or an intelligence created everything, reading the Bible should tell you that whatever the intelligence was, or is, it was NOT the nasty being depicted in the Bible called Yahweh, and by default it can't be that entity's narcissistic "son" either.

Christians should just start over, throw out their Bibles and trade it in for a telescope.

reply to post by bwinwright


the standard response : explain the origin of god[s]

PS - logic101 lesson - atheists do not believe something came from nothing - they simply have no beliefs in god[s]