Modern Poverty Includes A.C. and an Xbox

reply to post by haarvik

When you can no longer provide food, shelter or clothing you are impoverished.

Ummmmmm, wouldn't that be considered more like,..........dead?

Originally posted by haarvik
reply to post by 0zzymand0s

 

Wrong again. Real world example for ya. Last year in NC (just moved from there, thank god) a woman who was on public assistance AND addicted to crack sold her daughter (8 or 9 years old) into prostitution for crack. The little girl was murdered. So, had the state been doing mandatory drug testing maybe that little girl would still be alive. So now that there is a REAL child involved, tell me you want to look the other way. Tell me how it is wrong to require the testing. Tell that little girls grandparents how it was no ones business what she did.

Drug testing her for welfare benefits would have saved the daughter how again? Other than preventing the woman from collecting welfare, I see no connection that she would have not sold her daughter if she were even more desperate for crack money. People do not quit crack because you cut off their welfare checks. Obviously that was not enough.

reply to post by dolphinfan

I doubt that most tax payers would consider satellite TVs and cell phones vital components of the social safety net. Most would consider food, medical care, clothes and housing a safety net.

i agree, but lets say you lose your job tomorrow, should we all assume everything in your house now was bought using tax payers money?

As a poor person myself, with tons of stuff over the years, and 5 boys, 2 xbox's, no air conditioner, but if we needed one we would pick it up. We get nearly 100% of our clothing and furniture, which is from 3 households now, free, and given to us, or second hand. I cut our own hair. All electronics is new, usually. Appliances second hand shops. Dishwashers and airconditioners can be second hand as well, in fact every single mother I know got theres donated or second hand.

Xbox's usually come from relatives as gifts. Oh I also have a camera, winter light therapy lamp that was 300 brand new. We also share living space with relatives to have money to get things we need.

Anyone who has a problem with that isn't worth talking to. And their opinions/free will, don't slam dunk mine.

Originally posted by WickettheRabbit
Here's what I feel.

If I'm in line at the grocery store and someone talking on an iPhone is paying with food stamps, there is something wrong.

Thanks

why? please explain? because you assume?

so if a worker bought a ipod with his hard earned cash and then a week or two later became unemployed and need food stamps to survive but he took his ipod with him to the store whilst using his food stamps then there is something wrong?

what is wrong is jumping to conclusions.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by NadaCambia

 

I don't know about everywhere else in the world, I only know about my little slice. I have two very close friends, both of which are school teachers, and both of which must are forced to use daycare services.

In my last job, I had 18 employees. 15 were women, and 6 were single mothers. All 6 used daycare at least part of the time. 1 woman used daycare for 1/2 a day each day, and then her mother could pick up the child the other half. The other 5 women all used daycare all day.

I also have to call shenanigans, I don't know any working, single parents, that are not paying for at least some daycare expenses.

Well if what you say is true what an awful and shocking issue, and how sad that you think it's both normal and okay for this to happen.

Don't any Americans have family values? Where are the kids grand parents? Where is the government? I'm sorry but I can't wrap my head around your claims.

The only thing which sounds remotely similar is Nursery School, which doesn't cost single parents struggling for money a penny and isn't similar at all.

People don't pay for strangers to look after there toddlers. It's just a very peculiar and odd thing to do. Why can't a relative, friend or neighbor look after your child?

I don't know if it's small minds, greed, envy or all of the above... but this is such a warped idea that the poor are villians, and the rich are victims of some socialist agenda.

There's a bank CEO, a plumber and a Social Security recipient sitting around a restaurant table. The waiter puts down a large pizza cut into 12 slices. The bank CEO reaches across and pulls a slice onto his plate, while commenting that he has been eating pizza all day and couldn't fit in another bite. No matter though, this pizza he says he'll just keep with the other pizza's that he hasn't eaten yet. He continues piling slices on his plate... 11 of them until there is only one left. He then turns to the plumber and whispers, "you'd better watch out, I think that Social Security recipient sitting there is about to take your slice of pizza."

I suppose the original purpose of this thread would argue that the lazy and irresponsible Social Security recipient had a slice of pizza a month ago, and should be thankful he or she isn't living in a third world country... "since they've never even had pizza before your lazy ass is privileged to have had the experience."
Full disclosure, I'm Canadian so I suppose that makes me a Commie loving wealth redistribution advocate, but I'm not concerned with labels. This lazy lefty works 2 jobs and a private endeavor on the side while my wife (who also works) and I raise our 2 kids and pay our mortgage. We are the definition of middle class. We pay $1500 a month on daycare because we make "too much" money to qualify for subsidy.

Now, some of the parents who do get that subsidy might be abusing it. There are many however who absolutely need it. Should the ones who need it suffer because of the ones who abuse it? Should those children, instead of being brought up in a very good social environment where they learn, be instead left at home alone? Or... maybe the parent should quit their job to stay at home and look for another way to make money... welfare, sell drugs, give an online business a shot and hope to be making money from the get go because a week without groceries and rent money isn't the best situation for a family... or so I'm told...

My family and I live a decent life and we work hard, but despite that I'm under no illusions... I didn't do it on all on my own. I am able to work because I was taught to read, to write, add and subtract. My customers are able to purchase my products because they were taught to read, to write, add and subtract... therefore capable of functioning and working in society. We were all brought into the world in the first place and looked after over the years by physicians who were only able to practice medicine because they also early on learned to read and write and so on... We were educated when we were young and the cost, as well as who should or could pay for it wasn't the question. The question was what would the cost be to society if we weren't educated. Today, I'm not continuously looking over my shoulder or having my home broken into because children today are being educated. My life is infinitely better for it.

I know I'm a little off topic here but stick with me for a moment.

I can order food over the phone... the person can "write" down my order, the cook can decipher (read) what was written, it can be delivered because of public roads, the delivery person can count well enough to give me the correct change, and because of government health standards I can be reasonably confident I won't end up with e coli. Everywhere you look, your life is enriched because the population is educated. A functioning democracy requires an educated public (should be a clue as to why the elites want to get rid of education).

Now I've only made an argument for education here. I could use public utilities, roads and bridges, clean and safe water, police protection, the fact when I take a dump in the morning I don't have to find a place to bury it. All of these things create a functioning society that not only allow me a relative level of success for my hard work (certainly not guaranteed though), the confidence that I won't be carjacked at every corner because others have a reasonable opportunity of success... and live a comfortable enough life they neither feel it necessary to carjack me and/or they don't want to lose their relative comfort of living for it.

Other people have money in their pockets because of this functioning society which allows them to spend on things I provide, I in turn spend my money on things they provide. It's this dynamic system that is there when I wake up in the morning and when I go to bed at night that allows me to live the I we do. I'm thankful for it. I didn't create my life I have on my own, or pull up any bootstraps in the vacuum of space. If you think you can pull yourself up and succeed outside of a functioning society then there are countries where you can try. Somalia might be your utopia.

So my point is, and sorry so long to get to it... The OP claims this argument is all about "socialism" and "wealth redistribution". Sure it is. Outside of some delusional extremists I would think most people would agree educating our kids is a good idea. Even if it's just education, and we forget about having clean water to drink, we can agree it's a good idea in some way to pool our resources and come up with an economical, consistent and guaranteed opportunity to all children to learn and become functioning members of society. Since some people have more kids than others, some have none and some couldn't afford to... or have time to educate their children on their own, a method... or some mechanism of "wealth redistribution" is needed to accomplish this. Is that socialism? Sure, it's a social program this thing called public education. Is it not?

So the argument isn't whether you like socialism or not, whether you are a socialist or not... it's to what degree you are a socialist. I just love how the right (and their media driven talking points) paint this black and white picture of every evil "ism". There are literally people on Medicare raising their arms up, shouting and running in fear of some socialist plot. Would that be the same evil plot to show up on the scene and reset your broken ribs and legs when that poor, uneducated (but free and a capitalist... although he wouldn't know it meant) teenager steals a car, runs a red light and T-bones your Camry?

Our societies were born out of people banding together and pooling their resources to escape and fight off would be oppressors. The people created government to protect against those oppressors and to provide a mechanism for making decisions in the best interests of the people. All we had (and have) is power in numbers. As individuals we have no chance. I could be wrong but I don't think peasants 900 years ago living under an oppressive monarchy were running in fear of wealth redistribution and protesting against a social safety net. In relative terms, we are the peasants of today. If your family makes 250K a year, 25K a year or you're homeless, we're all in the same boat and dependant on it staying afloat. This entire thing we call a middle class isn't just rare today but it's extremely rare in human history. It's not some natural
evolution of civilization. Our ancestors had to fight for it. Freedom wasn't won through individualism, nor were 40 hour work weeks, weekends and safe working conditions. And to paint an entire class of people as spoiled because they have an Xbox while defending your would be oppressors as if their hundred million dollar salaries and dividend checks are a divine right is just astonishing.

The poor are people, not some simple commodity where their value is determined by a bar graph, living in a world where money and economics come before human decency. And, it's not some static demographic of people who never change. Some will work hard, do all the right things and through no fault of their own find themselves poor (better sell that Xbox though so as not to find yourself a statistic that'll be used against you). And some, with help from a social safety net will weather the tough times and eventually raise their economic status... and/or their children's and become contributing members of society. This is a dynamic, ever changing cycle happening somewhere every minute of every day.

reply to post by NadaCambia


Daycare is MOST commonly used by poor people for obvious reasons.

reply to post by onebullet


Great post.

But don't be offended by those attempting to help the rich get richer.

They think that if they appease them enough that something will trickle down...

They have been truly and completely brain washed.

reply to post by dolphinfan


I am confidant that those who have lost there homes, apartments, all there belongings plundered by there former land lord and some even there family ,would beg to differ.

God Bless America & You

Being poor is going to the gas station to lift a roll of TP, shaking down the couch for change so you can put a dollar in gas to pick up your paycheck, wondering if shampoo is ok to use to wash the dishes, leaving the porch light on so you know when you get home if they cut the power, the soul crushing depression that comes with the pink slip, feeling like a total looser because after all the applications and interviews no one can be bothered to even call to say they hired some one else. I'm sure all the 99s can understand how damaging it is to get turned away, rejected and passed over for jobs that pay less than 1/2 of what you are used to making or being told you are overqualified and even the fast food joint won't hire you.

When I had a job and I saw some poor dunk soul pan handling I gave him a dollar even if it was the last one I had. Sure he might spend it on booze or dope but you know what if it made sleeping on the sidewalk on a piece of cardboard in the elements just a little bit easier to deal with more power to him.

None of us know what another person has been through or what type of hell their life might be so I don't judge anyone. I have my own survival to keep me occupied. If someone is scamming the system don't you think your god or karma will settle the score. Do your self a favor and don't get yourself all worked up about it. Live and let live. Seems some of us could use a little more empathy and a little less judgment.

reply to post by NadaCambia


I keep forgetting you are in the UK. We have nursery school that is free after the kids reach age 4 or 5. When they are 4 it is called pre-K, and when they are 5 it is called Kindergarten. In pre-K it only runs from 7:55 a.m. to 12:00 for free. For a working single parent, they either have to have a family member or a paid babysitter to pick the kids up at noon. For Kindergarten and on up into Elementary school, it the school runs from 7:55 to 3:15. So, for a working single parent, they are still going to need someone else to pick up the kids after school.

There are many intact families where the parents can stagger their schedules and make it work. There are many people with extended family that can help out, but sadly there are also way too many families with no options except paying someone else.

My wife's sister and parents live here in our town, but her sister works full time and has a child of her own, her parents both work full time, and we both work full time. We are fortunate to be able to spread around the sick days and such. If the kids get sick, we can trade who it is that has to call in sick and stay home, that way nobody gets into trouble for missing too much work.

Not everyone even has that option, and I have had the misfortune of having to fire single mothers, because the missed too much work, because they were taking care of their kids. I currently have an employee that I feel extreme sympathy for. Her husband ran off, she doesn't have any friends or family in the area, the husband isn't paying child support, she can barely afford basic child support, and when the kids get sick, she has to miss work. She has several kids, and she has missed so much work, that she is about to lose her job. It will be my responsibility to face her and give her the bad news. She has already told me that she is on the verge of losing her home. I don't really have any choice in the matter, because it is my responsibility to make sure the work is getting done and the positions are filled, and in order to protect my job, I will eventually have to give hers to someone else.

The society is very, very broken, no doubt about that.

reply to post by Cuervo


Where do you get your information?

I would love to make $35,000, so I guess I am really "poor"

Will somebody share some of their money with me cause I am very poor. I am way under the poverty line and would appreciate it if you would take the money you earn and just give it to me.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
I currently have an employee that I feel extreme sympathy for. Her husband ran off, she doesn't have any friends or family in the area, the husband isn't paying child support, she can barely afford basic child support, and when the kids get sick, she has to miss work. She has several kids, and she has missed so much work, that she is about to lose her job.

She is willing to work hard.

Her children could become contributing members to society if they are not damaged at this vulnerable age.'

We (as a society) have the technology and the resources to help this women.

But people have been brain washed to believe this women is a lazy leech on society.

Originally posted by Indigo5
reply to post by buddhasystem

 

I agree. As I posted earlier..

Originally posted by Indigo5
(A) Class warfare at it's ugliest courtessy of the Koch Brothers who fund the Heritage Foundation.

The Koch Brothers are the lovely folks who would like you to believe that your local grade school teacher, local fireman or civil servant is a socialist secretly living in a mansion and driving a ferrari on your taxpayer dollars.

(B) Cable companies routinely provide Free Basic Cable television to public housing and even in many well-to-do communities you can request and receive free (slimmed down) basic cable access. It is part of the agreement that Cable companies make with state and city officials to install infra-structure and cables on public property.

(C) Cell phone plans are less expensive than land lines. You can even buy them in gas stations throughout the US. For someone in bad economic circumstances uncertain of where they will live in the comming months or years, a cell phone makes sense and people looking for work need to be reachable.

It's obvious that there is a profound uptick in propaganda and efforts to hobble the middle class, I am just not certain as to what the end game is.

Is it for political gain?
A citizenry divided by class is easier to manipulate? Education and educators? The poor? The middle class? The Unions?
Is it the hope that if they hobble the middle class they will hobble the grass roots funding for progressive or democratic causes? That a GOP "permanent majority" will allow folks like the Koch brothers to operate unregulated and unhindered?

It seems that Billionaires that require a healthy consumer class like Bill Gates and Steve Jobs are not on board with the "gut the working class" agenda because they require a healthy consumer class to sell their products.

Folks that profit from energy or disposables like paper plates etc. like the Koch Brothers will continue to make money even if the middle class is crushed, maybe more so with greater power in DC. Even the poor need gas, energy, electricity etc.

Edit to add: The other theorey I have flirted with as a motivation for gutting the middle and working class, plus education and educators...is it possible that certain Billionaires would prefer a shift from an educated, economically healthy middle class to a less educated, cheap labor class without a minimum wage so that they could have a "slave labor" resource in their backyard rather than go to China and India?

There have been several GOP iniatives to eliminate the minimum wage this year in concert with defunding education.

Haven't thought throught the full motivation for this propaganda war on the poor and middle class, but the goal seems clear and frightening IMO.

edit on 20-7-2011 by Indigo5 because: (no reason given)

edit on 20-7-2011 by Indigo5 because: (no reason given)

Why do you think Apple, Microsoft, Walmart, are all expanding heavily into the global markets? Because they know that American consumer will not have a lot of disposable income soon. The dollar is devalued and will continue in that direction. Ah the beauty of the global market/economy (heavy sarcasm)!! When global corporations need to raise their profits by reducing costs, they do it by moving operations where the labor costs are cheaper or through automation and technology. They don't care who the consumer is or what country he is from, they just need a consumer. These corporations and corporatists have been bailing out the U,.S. for a long time now. Bill Gates was converting his cash to Euro's back in 2004.

The problem is that the worker doesn't have the same facility, to move to another country and start over.

Global corporations and ruining this country, but they own the media and have people fighting amopng themselves. Liberals bad/Conservatives good, Republicans bad/Democrats good, or Left bad/Right good!! Geez give me a frickin break. Wake up, BLIND BAD/AWAKE GOOD!!! How can anyone not get that Bill Gates and Steve Jobs don't give a rat's A$$ about America or the American middle class. Why do you think they keep moving their jobs offshore?! They'll suck us dry if we don't wake up!!

Originally posted by nazarenec
I would love to make $35,000, so I guess I am really "poor"

I agree with most of cuervo's post but I have to disagree with that assessment as well. But there are a lot of factors that go into determining how good of a salary 35K is. It still isn't very much no matter where you live in this country today, but especially if you live in a city where the cost of living generally tends to be fairly expensive. I would consider that salary to be lower middle class.

But unless things change for the better in this country, expect more of the population to be lumped in with the lower class. Wages have been stagnant but everything else continues to go up in price.

omg classwarfare came from the koch brothers?

i have yet to see them say anything remotely like obama has time and time aigan.

spread the wealth

at some point youve earned enough

the more fortnuate should be paying for those who have less.

if you heard of robin hood you have heard of classwarfare and its been in practice for decades in this country.

and now your robbin hoods have robbed enough that has turned the majorty of this nation into hoods.

i swear it is amazing how clueless some people are.

reply to post by dolphinfan


One thing to keep in mind though...thanks to cheap imports, and high technology, we are inundated with gadgets. One could probably find most items on that list in working condition on the side of the street on garbage day or for mere dollars at yard sales or resale stores. Still, a good point is made in that as a first world country, most of us in all of the income categories are out of touch with what it is really like be poor....like the over 70% of the rest of the world's population.

Great thread, I already knew this much, though... I'm in contact with friends every single day who struggle like crazy without an end to pay their bills, rent, buy food for themselves and family, keep their vehicles running, etc... and these are people that have nice houses or decent apartments, have furniture, have TVs and computers and some even video game consoles... yet that does not mean we should just dismiss them as not being in need, especially those who have families of 5 or more...like mine.

You see, I am one of these people as well, I'm in my early 20's and still living with my parents because I'm literally stuck in a hole where neither one of them can seem to get things together and I have been working hard to pay the bills and rent and put gas in the truck and have it maintenanced (which it just continues to break down) and I have 5 siblings. My mom is in and out of jobs, either she just has really bad luck or there's something else going on but I've always known her to be a hard working individual... and the process of finding another job is never easy these days, she just found one last week after 3 months of searching... my stepdad used to be in the oil field a few years ago and he was injured in an accident on the job which caused brain damage and he has been deemed disabled, and now receives disability (not enough) which is really the only thing helping me keep things above water... I have a sister who is 16 and is now old enough to work but she can't seem to get hired anywhere... We have only one vehicle, we did have two but due to not being able to keep up with car payments, it was reposessed. Yes I know the standards of living in America are amazing compared to other places in the world, and no I don't take this for granted at all, I know what it's like to be on the streets with absolutely nothing, but the "fancy" things we have now: the two TVs, the PS2, my computer, my cell phone (no one else has one except me and I only have it because I work for a cell company), and the home we live in in general... these were all acquired at a time when all of us were much better off financially, nowadays it's a miracle if we buy anything new... I haven't purchased clothes in a long time and I can't fit correctly in most of the ones I have had now as my body has gradually changed, and I find myself repeating the same outfits each week, it's either that or I buy clothes and sacrifice food or gas in the truck so that I can get to work or some other necessity. It's a tough game I have been playing, and I've had about enough. It's a constant struggle to make it from paycheck to paycheck and saving money is not an option. When I yearn to move on and start my life finally and get into school with a hope for a better future with a much better career, yet I can't because I have to watch over my family and support them, whereas when I was growing up the image I had of graduating high school and going to college was always the opposite... there's gotta be something wrong with the way things are right now. Something went wrong and I am paying for it. I tried twice already in the last 4 years to start my own life and get into school but something monetary always brought me right back here, this rocket just won't launch. To add to all this, every day I'm watching people being walked out of my workplace, the building is the most empty it has ever been since I started here a year ago and job security is really not something I have the benefit of at this time.

It's for these reasons that I can't just agree with opinions that people who have things like TVs and video games in their homes shouldn't be entitled to some help of some kind. It's like saying a malnourished dog that has a fancy collar shouldn't be fed but the other dogs without fancy collars should. I know dogs aren't a great analogy but I figured it'd help with my point... lol. Yes we should focus on those much less fortunate, but we should also focus on those who are on the border of being in that group. We are only one paycheck away from going under, and seeing the recent deficit talks and Obama saying the Social Security checks may not go out next month, who knows what's to come... :/

reply to post by APhoenixInside


Your situation is extremely challenging and I wish you and your family the very best. It is also a terrific example of the problems we have. As I mentioned in prior posts, there are many kinds of poor people/people who are struggling. We lump them into one bucket and deal with them all the same, by in large. We have dozens of programs for the poor and really don't have any idea what value they provide to people legitimately in need. We need an honest evaluation of the different circumstances and target our investments accordingly. We simply don't do that. In my mind, someone in your circumstances is the kind of person who would be considered an investment, and due to the potential shown by your providing for your family and the level of responsibility you have shown should get more assistance, not the same level and certainly not less. I know this will be offensive to many, but you're simply a better bet than the person on welfare who sits in section 8 housing watching free cable tv all day. You should get more, simply due to the fact that it is likely temporary in nature. If providing you with more means more means giving that person less, than thats what needs to happen. If that means that the other person's free cable needs to go, it needs to go.

We continue to assume that if a program targeted for the poor exists, its a necessary program and should anyone desire to cut a program targeted for the poor they are heartless. In reality we need to reevaluate what we THINK we are doing to assist the poor and spend our investments in ways that make sense and are strategic in nature. In your case for example, more assistance, both cash and college tuition might be a great use of funds, since it will net decrease dependency while incremental increases to others are poor investments. It certainly is a poor investment if the person is not actively seeking employment or an education and has been on welfare for more than a few years. What do we do with the person who has been on welfare for a decade? My view would be to the extent that they are able bodied, cut their assistance to the absolute bone.

In order to redefine our programs we need to do a couple of things. We need to understand more about the various categories of poor, we need to understand what programs work and why they work and vis a versa. We then need to have the courage to make wise decisions which will undoubtably be unpopular. For example, after a thorough analysis, it might make sense to shift resources from urban poor to rural poor. Or from poor in one area of the country to the poor in another, if that means over the long run the total number of poor is reduced.

Thats the crux of what the thread is all about.