Modern Poverty Includes A.C. and an Xbox

reply to post by DZAG Wright


Jump off the high horse.

Money = freedom in a capitalist society and the more money taken, yes taken, from someone by the government is a direct reduction of their personal freedom.

Money sent to the government is fungible. We have a representative government that manages (poorly) where that money is being spent.

This entire business needs to be looked at from a macro perspective. Of course I don't know that my $5 went to give Billy some assistance in a program I don't support in the same way I don't know that my $5 went to pay for something I do.

What I do know is how much money we spend on Billy for a given program and all of the Billys out there. Knowing that, it is quite reasonable to suggest that Billy has some obligation to live responsibly and treat the folks who are paying for his lifestyle, how ever crappy it is with a bit of respect. And, yes going out to buy a TV even if that TV costs $5 is disrespectful.

You rail on about judgement and reality one of the underlying problems in society today is that somehow judgement has become unpopular or anti-social. Of course I am going to make a judgement about someone who, by virtue of needing food stamps to eat and then buys a toy. Why wouldn't I?

Contrary to popular belief, millionaires don't spend money like they show on TV. Now I'm not talking about people like Bill Gates, or Warren Buffet. I'm talking about the thousands of millionaires who got their money the old fashioned way, they earned it. A true millionaire does not live a lavish lifestyle. In fact, you may even know one and not be aware of it. Did you know most millionaires drive a 2 to 3 year old Toyota Camry? Most live in a modest home under 2,000 sq. ft. They saved and invested and earned their money. Why do you think 70% of lottery millionaires go broke in the first 5 years? They didn't earn the money therefore they don't know how to manage money. How many stars and musicians go bankrupt after earning multi-millions? A lot. Oh they live large, but they have no concept of how to manage money and end up losing it all. Some figure it out and do well, most don't.

Now, you want to be a millionaire? Then you have to think and act like one. You have to be frugal and thrifty. No one is going to hand it to you. Being poor is not a crime, nor an excuse to not do better. Write down what you have to have each month. ESSENTIALS ONLY! Food, electric/gas, water, housing. Now subtract that from what you make. What is left is discretionary spending and not essential. For one month keep track of every penny you spend. At the end of the month look at what you purchased and identify what you really don't need. I would venture to say most everyone could come up with 10 or 20 dollars a week they don't truly need to spend. $10 a week is $520 a year. $20 a week is $1040 a year. Nice chunk isn't it? Now you have money for a rainy day or even invest and get a return. So you have to ask yourself if you can do without those cigarettes, or that case of Coke. Can you cut $10 a week from something you really do not need? An exercise like this can make a difference in making it or losing everything.

Think about it. I challenge you to do this exercise. It is an eye opener when you see what is wasted.

Originally posted by haarvik
reply to post by DZAG Wright

 

Again you miss the point, which is exactly what people like you do. It has nothing to do with the fact that someone lost their job and now must get assistance. It has to do with those who do receive it and then waste their money on things they should not be buying and providing for their family.

Have you read what your compatriots have written on this thread???

It does not sound like the question is not "someone lost their job and now must get assistance", it is, "it's not
my problem one bit, @%#@ em!!!".

I think you assume people advocate waste and fraud, people are arguing with you because the tone in here sounds like y'all are against, "someone lost their job and now must get assistance".

I come back to this thread and now it sounds like you are not oppossed to "someone lost their job and now must get assistance" - this was not appearent earlier with your previous posts.

This same thing happens in every philosophical thread about assistance... it takes 20 pages to realize that we
are not completely diametrically oppssed to eachother... I frankly HATE waste and cheating because it leads to
other people demonizing ("someone lost their job and now must get assistance"), those who act in good faith.
I am ALL about trying to address it politically, however I am not sure how you can without creating more governmen and regulation to police the system better, catch 22.

We are NEVER going to get our act together if we verbalizes the polar extremes from the get go. Instead of
finding common ground, we project a defensive position that does not even take into to account the actual position of our political "opposition".

IF this post was your first in the thread, it might be another thread completely. look how far we have come.


YOU

Don't look for small businesses to add "extra shifts" anytime soon. All you social entitlement proponents who were all over the new healthcare law are to thank for this. They will work the hell out of what they have so they don't have to hire new and face the new taxes that come with the new law.

I'm so sick and tired of the have-nots whining about spreading the wealth. Tough s**t! Make your OWN money and leave mine alone! Why should I work hard, pay for my own education so I can make more just so some lazy ass can demand they are entitled to some of it because they are too lazy to do the same? Sorry, but that dog don't hunt! You can call me whatever you want, but I earn my money and I intend to keep it! I don't give to charity unless 100% goes to the intended recipient. I have bought food for homeless people because giving them cash promotes drug/alcohol consumption and NOT nutrition. You want the state to take care of you then move to another country like Cuba and have at it!

ME

How can we have an honest debate, if you claim to intimately understand the motives of people who hold
different veiws than you, before engaging in debate?

You guys don't want debate, you do not want to understand or learn, you want to win your way by stressing out
and scaring one another into voting the way you want.

I think the debate is how far do you guys want to contract it, you guys are the ones who are in a twist.

Transposing your sentiment and drive on other people should be your first attempt at awareness..

How far do you want to contract it?

Will a dog food and tarp standard for poor people make you feel better?


Those poor people are too comfortable, they need to be more miserable!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


You should learn about the way of Jesus

It seems the bomb throwing always interferes with the "resolution", the common ground.

reply to post by dolphinfan


I thought we lived in a country where we valued freedom of choice?

Anyway, by what right does anyone with a 401K whose value was supported by taxpayer bailouts to the banking system and stock market have to go on vacation, buy good food or have cable and internet access?

Their wealth is protected and supported by more taxpayer dollars than any welfare cheat could get in years.

I'm pretty tired of those wealthy leechers who suck off the public tit through the stock market supports feeling so holier than thou.

The biggest leeches and mooches are those who cheat the system and sanctimoniously uphold hteir virtue, like getreadyalready, who pays uder the table, avoiding taxes, preventing his nanny from accumulating unemployment or social security credits. It's good for her in the immediate here and now, in that she eats, but in reality he's trapped her in poverty, since what he pays her leaves her zero real options other than dependence upon his whims of employment.

He is living above his means if he can't afford to pay an aboveboard salary, and he is the one cheating the system and putting a burden on other taxpayers, since we have to foot her healthcare, since her employer probably doesn't provide it. Far too many of the slightly rich live above their means by breaking the laws about employment, justifying it because they dont like them, don't agree with them and they are inconvenient. Far too many hire illegals because they are cheap and easy to exploit. And only the rich or slightly rich hire illegals, because the poor can't afford to.

Guess what?

They are still the laws, you are still a criminal lawbeaker, and you're mooching off the rest of us in multiple ways to support your extravagant lfestyle.

So get off your high horses unless you strictly abide by employment laws, and turn in your fellow lawbreakers hiring illegals..

Originally posted by Unity_99
As a poor person myself, with tons of stuff over the years, and 5 boys, 2 xbox's, no air conditioner, but if we needed one we would pick it up. We get nearly 100% of our clothing and furniture, which is from 3 households now, free, and given to us, or second hand. I cut our own hair. All electronics is new, usually. Appliances second hand shops. Dishwashers and airconditioners can be second hand as well, in fact every single mother I know got theres donated or second hand.

Xbox's usually come from relatives as gifts. Oh I also have a camera, winter light therapy lamp that was 300 brand new. We also share living space with relatives to have money to get things we need.

Anyone who has a problem with that isn't worth talking to. And their opinions/free will, don't slam dunk mine.

edit on 20-7-2011 by Unity_99 because: (no reason given)

Good for you for finding ways to live.

But, it is not my fault nor my problem,.

Originally posted by lifeform11

Originally posted by WickettheRabbit
Here's what I feel.

If I'm in line at the grocery store and someone talking on an iPhone is paying with food stamps, there is something wrong.

Thanks

why? please explain? because you assume?

so if a worker bought a ipod with his hard earned cash and then a week or two later became unemployed and need food stamps to survive but he took his ipod with him to the store whilst using his food stamps then there is something wrong?

what is wrong is jumping to conclusions.

If you can pay for an Iphone, and the service for it, you can pay for your own food.
Simple matter of priorities.

The point of the study is very simple... what we call poverty in this country and time would be considered a decadent lifestyle in many other countries/times. It's a healthy dose of perspective is all.

Originally posted by neo96
omg classwarfare came from the koch brothers?

i have yet to see them say anything remotely like obama has time and time aigan.

spread the wealth

at some point youve earned enough

the more fortnuate should be paying for those who have less.

if you heard of robin hood you have heard of classwarfare and its been in practice for decades in this country.

and now your robbin hoods have robbed enough that has turned the majorty of this nation into hoods.

i swear it is amazing how clueless some people are.

Actually the story of Robin Hood was one of the people taxed into poverty by the King, and the character would take the tax money back from the King and return it to the people.
There is no implied idea that he stole from the wealthy people and gave it to the poor. That is how the story was twisted to suite those wanting it to show as such.

And yet again the leftists miss the whole point. The middle class pays 90% of the taxes in this country. When someone goes on assistance it's OUR money paying them. I don't feel one bit ashamed of asking them to justify receiving it, or giving it up if abusing it. I don't care what possessions you have. I don't care if you own your home. I do care if you are wasting our middle class HARD EARNED money on items not necessary like drugs/alcohol/tobacco. And yes, due to experiences I have a very narrow opinion of those on welfare. Of course I generalize, as I have stated in other posts and there are always the exception. But by and large most recipients are not worthy of it. For those I say tough s**t! For those who truly do need it and are trying to do better then kudos to you and get all assistance you can.

reply to post by macman


And if the banks can afford to gamble on derivatives and give loans out to unqualified people, they can eat their losses like responsible adults and work harder and smarter to recoup their losses without leeching off the taxpayers right?

If your 401K and stocks shrink by 90%, so what?

Not my problem: I liquidated mine sometime ago to pay bills.

If you have any investments in real estate, stocks, mutual funds, etc., you're the pot calling the kettle black, and have less moral room to talk than an outright welfare cheat, since you've mooched more off the system via taxpayer support of the stock market than is possible to mooch off welfare.

Failure to recognize and admit this bespeaks either appalling ignorance or appalling arrogance.

Before we cut aid to the poor, we should be eliminating all stock market support programs, and demand our TARP money back now, not when it's convenient for the banks.

You say the economy will collapse?

Boo-freaking-hoo.

It's not the poor's problem: they don't have a place anyway. They won't be any worse off...in fact, it might actually provide some real opportuninites for them to survive a little longer with a little more dignity.

reply to post by apacheman


TARP should never have happened, at least we agree on that. It would appear to me that you have some history where the market and banks are concerned. Either lost a bunch in a 401k or had a foreclosure. If so, s**t happens. You move on and climb the ladder again. When you get back to a previous level, you forget the bad and remember the good.

Originally posted by apacheman
reply to post by macman

 

And if the banks can afford to gamble on derivatives and give loans out to unqualified people, they can eat their losses like responsible adults and work harder and smarter to recoup their losses without leeching off the taxpayers right?

If your 401K and stocks shrink by 90%, so what?

Not my problem: I liquidated mine sometime ago to pay bills.

If you have any investments in real estate, stocks, mutual funds, etc., you're the pot calling the kettle black, and have less moral room to talk than an outright welfare cheat, since you've mooched more off the system via taxpayer support of the stock market than is possible to mooch off welfare.

Failure to recognize and admit this bespeaks either appalling ignorance or appalling arrogance.

Before we cut aid to the poor, we should be eliminating all stock market support programs, and demand our TARP money back now, not when it's convenient for the banks.

You say the economy will collapse?

Boo-freaking-hoo.

It's not the poor's problem: they don't have a place anyway. They won't be any worse off...in fact, it might actually provide some real opportuninites for them to survive a little longer with a little more dignity.

edit on 21-7-2011 by apacheman because: (no reason given)

And you know me how and from where?
I mooched off of what?

You much so many assumptions, it really is mind boggling you can keep up with your own BS.

Maybe if we quit judging everyone else and helped each other out instead of pointing fingers we wouldn't need a government agency to do it for us. Problem is most people and most corporations do not to the right thing unless they HAVE to.

I know we could get Minute Men or some other private militia group to follow welfare recipients around to be sure they are not wasting hard earned tax dollars. They could stand at the checkout to approve purchases made with food stamps. We could encourage them to tell on any of their kind who are breaking the rules. Institute forced abortions and sterilizations to insure they aren't over breeding. Mandatory drug and breathalyzers for them all. We could force them to work. You know what would make it really easy to keep an eye on them if we rounded them all up and put them in some sort of camp. That way we would know for sure they wouldn't be taking advantage of the system. Wow I can't believe no one ever though of this before.

or

Maybe we work harder on buying American made items, punish companies who outsource by taking away their tax breaks, help out our friends and neighbors in times of need, and educate our children so they don't end up in prison or on the dole. I am sure there are a million ways to make it better without going in a really bad direction.

Judgement often leads down a road of hate one that sadly we have been down way too many times before. Really do any of you want to see AMERICAN babies dying of starvation covered in flies. Would it make it hard to smile and whistle "God Bless America" while your hanging out your American flag? Gee I hope so.

reply to post by Ladysophiaofsandoz


If you have to do it, then it is not free will. It is not the job of the Govt to steal from me to give to others.

I help others because I want to.
The Govt 'helps' because they want more control.

reply to post by Ladysophiaofsandoz


In a perfect world, you would be right. However, human nature being what it is will always choose the easiest path. If that means I get something for free, I will take it. Those who are not comfortable with less achieve more. Most poor are not interested in buying American made. They are buying cheap and affordable. As long as we allow foreign imports to come to this country with no tariffs to even the playing field it will never change. Given the choice between a $50 DVD player made in America and a $29 one made in Chine, guess which one gets purchased? You have to start at the source to make it effective.

My tax money gets spent of lots of things I do not approve of but insuring that American kids have a roof over their heads and food in their bellies when they go to be a night is not one of them. Face it there are people on welfare, bankers, lawyers, politicians who take advantage of the system and gain while the rest of us loose. If we start cutting social programs who is really going to suffer? The kids who had nothing to do with the circumstances they were born into or the sorry state of of country. I live in a great and wealthy nation (though not in actual cash money) there is no excuse for Americans to suffer in times of need. The system is broken and needs some tweeking but until then screw the few who are taking advantage of the system. I sleep really good at night knowing American children will not die from starvation.

Originally posted by macman

so many assumptions

.....

The premise of this thread is based upon so many assumptions.

your position has consitently taken on the role of assuming that recipients of assistance are
sitting in a pile of poop eating Cheetos. What you fail to understand is, most of us are here opposing
you because we assume that the people who are in good faith should not be slandered and ridiculed
because you make large sweeping assumptions of association. I have never recieved welfare, nor has my
family, but I do understand that life can dish out a car accident and cancer to the same family in the same week.
You name it and it can happen... so many assumptions indeed

Originally posted by haarvik
reply to post by Ladysophiaofsandoz

 

In a perfect world, you would be right. However, human nature being what it is will always choose the easiest path. If that means I get something for free, I will take it. Those who are not comfortable with less achieve more.

What I don't understand is why you seem to think the people around you are no good?

This morning at 6 AM the freeway was jam packed with people who got up at some god forsaken hour to
work, provide and be resposible, yet you make it sound like it is a rarity in this world. Maybe your
perspective is ruined by your own experience?

Originally posted by Janky Red

Originally posted by macman

so many assumptions

.....

The premise of this thread is based upon so many assumptions.

your position has consitently taken on the role of assuming that recipients of assistance are
sitting in a pile of poop eating Cheetos. What you fail to understand is, most of us are here opposing
you because we assume that the people who are in good faith should not be slandered and ridiculed
because you make large sweeping assumptions of association. I have never recieved welfare, nor has my
family, but I do understand that life can dish out a car accident and cancer to the same family in the same week.
You name it and it can happen... so many assumptions indeed

No, I assume nothing in what they are doing at home.
My money, not yours.
If I want to help, I have a choice. MY choice. Not the huge machine that Govt has turned into.
The failure or misfortunes of others it not my concern. My failures or misfortune are none of yours either. Period.
Instead of worrying about what others are doing, have or don't have, why don't you focus on yourself.
I am tired of being told I have to take care of others and/or the Govt needs to as well.
Be responsible for yourself.

Originally posted by macman

The Govt 'helps' because they want more control.

The government is mostly populated with people who have very little control of anything they do
within the confines of their position. The government helps because of opinions that are expressed in this thread.
The government will stop helping if people like you are able to pull it off politically... I am not sure what you guys want... Can you explain???