The Forgotten JFK Assassination tapes

reply to post by yon34


Ok, if it came from the front left... What was the location of the shooter? Where could he have possibly been that evaded notice? And why wasn't Jackie harmed or even have the upper part of her body splattered with blood?

Not forgetting the witnesses don't point to a shot from the left hand side and that's where the majority of them were.

The source also says this:

A few tall buildings are in that area. Which does it point to?

Upon looking at the full frame, we can see It's by far too elevated (to the point It's almost going straight up) and points to no building in the area:

files.abovetopsecret.com...

(It's a graphic image so please bear this in mind before clicking)

reply to post by yon34


I had a look around and you may also be interested to read this. It's very thought-provoking:

Why I am qualified to respond:

I have testified as an expert in crime scene reconstruction and bloodstain pattern analysis in over 30 judicial districts in the states of Louisiana, Mississippi and Florida; including US Federal District Court. I formerly headed the Forensic Investigative Unit for St. Charles Parish of the Louisiana Sheriff's Department and prior to that was second in command at the Lafayette Parish Metro Forensic Unit which served eight parishes. Presently, I am retired yet still do limited consultation for attorneys and law enforcement officials. When I retired I allowed my professional memberships expire. However, I was a member of the International Association for Identification and acquired the Certified Senior Crime Scene Analyst certification. I have served on IAIs subcommittee for bloodstain pattern evidence, and have presented at international and state conferences for that organization. I was a member of the International Association of Bloodstain Pattern Analysts and the Association for Crime Scene Reconstruction.

I am recognized as a Bloodstain Pattern Analysis course instructor by the International Association of Bloodstain Pattern Analysts and the International Association for Identification; and have taught that field of investigation to law enforcement agencies and at police academies for over 20 years. I have published 15 articles in peer reviewed journals, and given lectures at national and international levels. I published my findings concerning the Kennedy Assassination on the web originally in 1995 and have yet for one expert in my field to review my work and find my methods in error.

Based upon my training and experience I feel I am more than qualified as an expert to address the claims made by the web page.

Hoax Claim:

More recently, scientists have discovered that there is something else about the shot to JFK’s head on the forged film that is fake—and can be proved to be fake: the spray of blood that appears at the moment he is shot. Film experts had noted that the “blood spray” in Frame 313 looks like it has been “painted on” and then exposed onto a genuine strip of film. But what tells us that this “blood” is fake is the fact that it disappears into thin air! If it was real, the “blood” should spread out in the frames after Frame 313, and then land on people or objects in the car. But within a couple of frames, it disappears altogether:

The graphs show that the “spray” disappears within three frames, or one-sixth of a second. This can’t happen! Even if you dropped a lead weight from JFK’s temple, it wouldn’t drop into the car this fast! The scientists were also able to show that the “spray” could not have been moving so fast that it shot right out of view before Frame 314.

If it was real, the “blood” should spread out in the frames after Frame 313, and then land on people or objects in the car. But within a couple of frames, it disappears altogether: The graphs show that the “spray” disappears within three frames, or one-sixth of a second. This can’t happen! Even if you dropped a lead weight from JFK’s temple, it wouldn’t drop into the car this fast!

My Response:

Unfortunately, we are not discussing lead weights. The blood is being forcefully expelled from the wound and is traveling at a higher rate of speed than that of falling velocity. Since 1983 I have been actively involved in the study and recreation of bloodstain pattern created as a result of high velocity impact. This type of analysis is founded in physics and mathematics and based on the study of research performed by many criminalists. Therefore, it satisfies one of the main criteria for evidence analysis specified by the courts - that the evidence has as its basis in sound scientific methodology. Data collection for the analysis was accomplished by shooting through a variety of samples of whole human blood at a series of distances and with a wide diversity of projectile calibers.

Videotape is used to capture the results of the bullets passing through the bloody targets. The blood used in all cases is whole human blood. The videotape used records 30 frames per second. The video utilized approximately 4-5 frames to capture the forceful impact pattern when a low velocity, large caliber projectile with a high KE rate impacted a large volume of blood. This means that partiular pattern was created in its entirety in 1/6 of a second. Faster projectiles resulted in patterns that were created in less than 1/6 of a second. The Zapruder film was recorded at 18 frames per second. If blood is observed in 2-3 frames that would mean the pattern was created and dissipated in a time frame of 1/6 of a second or less. A time frame consistent with patterns created with a high velocity projectile.

Another criteria for evidence analysis specified by the courts is that the analysis used have the ability to be duplicated. This test for the speed of a spatter pattern being created and disipating can be duplicated by placing a video camera at a 90 degree to a bloody target. Fake blood in a sponge secured in a small zip lock bag will work, since all liquids respond in the same manner to forceful impact. You can attach the bag to a pole or other upright item. Hanging a dark surface behind the target will provide better viewing contrast. Use a high velocity projectile to shoot the target. Count the number of frames it takes for the spatter to be created and dissipate.

Hoax Claim:

The scientists were also able to show that the “spray” could not have been moving so fast that it shot right out of view before Frame 314. But even if the blood could have, where would it have ended up?
It would have gone all over the Connallys, and the windows and interior of the limousine. But a frame published only weeks after the assassination, in color, showed no blood at all:

My Response:

It is amazing that the writer of this article would not consider there were other methods than viewing a single frame of the Zapruder film to determine if blood was present either within or outside the Limo. Especially when there are numerous statements documenting blood being deposited both within and outside the limo. A google search for limo images will result in several photographs of the limo containing blood. One such photograph can be seen here: http://www.jfklancer.../limo/ce353.jpg
Here's one of the limo exterior being cleaned at Parkland Hospital http://jfk.iefactory...os/limohosp.jpg

Additionally, there are many statements of witnesses that indicate blood was found outside the 2 frames in the Zapruder film:

Nellie Connally "I felt something falling all over me. My sensation was of spent buckshot. My eyes saw bloody matter in tiny bits all over the car." Nellie Connally; Nellie Connally: That Day in Dallas by Robert R. Rees.


Roy Kellerman:
Mr. KELLERMAN. Senator, between all the matter that was--between all the matter that was blown off from an injured person, this stuff all came over.
Senator COOPER. What was that?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Body matter; flesh..
Mr. SPECTER. When did you first notice the substance which you have described as body matter?
Mr. KELLERMAN. When I got to the hospital, sir, it was all over my coat.
Testimony Of Roy H. Kellerman, Special Agent, Secret Service Beginning At 2H61


Secret Service Agent Samuel Kinney, the driver of the vehicle behind the President. "my windshield and left arm were hit with blood and brain matter immediately after the head shot."


Police Officer Seymore Weitzman in his Warren Commission testimony stated he discovered a piece of skull bone lying in the street, just inches from the South curbing, and roughly 20 feet to Kennedy's left.


Officer William Joseph "B. J." Martin Warren Commission testimony:
Mr. BALL: Did you notice any stains on your helmet?
Mr. MARTIN: Yes, sir; during the process of working traffic there, I noticed that there were blood stains on the windshield, on my motor, and then I pulled off my helmet and I noticed there were blood stains on the left side of my helmet.


Bobby Hargis " ...it was like a bucket of blood was thrown from his head"


Robert A. Frazier testified on 2-21 & 2-22-1969 in the Clay Shaw trial. During his testimony he discussed what was found when the limo was searched at 1am on 11-23. "We found blood and tissue all over the outside areas of the vehicle from the hood ornament, over the complete area of the hood, on the outside of the windshield, also on the inside surface of the windshield, and all over the entire exterior portion of the car, that is, the side rails down both sides of the car, and of course considerable quantities inside the car and on the trunk lid area."



Work that asked to be taken seriously must be researched in depth to assure all facets of the matter in question are considered. When addressing an investigation you can not enter the investigation with a pre-disposed idea and search for supporting evidence. You must uncover and expose all possible information and then form conclusions based upon your findings. The information contained at this page of JFK assassination film hoax is incorrect in its scientific basis. They are guilty of not doing sufficent research on their subject of blood spatter. There are numerous books available at public libraries, and for purchase on the web, that address this subject and support my statements here. Additionally, good research should have indicated a need to determine if witnesses had made statements concerning deposited blood.

I encourage all researchers to thoroughly investigate this subject to help them in determining the validity of the Zapruder film. And I encourage the writers of JFK assassination film hoax: The blood mistake to reconsider the contents of their page because it's their mistake.

Review of work posted at www.assassinationscience.com...

(Source)

Originally posted by Rising Against
reply to post by yon34

 

Ok, if it came from the front left... What was the location of the shooter? Where could he have possibly been that evaded notice? And why wasn't Jackie harmed or even have the upper part of her body splattered with blood?

Not forgetting the witnesses don't point to a shot from the left hand side and that's where the majority of them were.

The source also says this:

A few tall buildings are in that area. Which does it point to?

Upon looking at the full frame, we can see It's by far too elevated (to the point It's almost going straight up) and points to no building in the area:

files.abovetopsecret.com...

(It's a graphic image so please bear this in mind before clicking)

reply to post by yon34


It's probably the railroad overpass. A couple of things to consider in addition. The number one objective of a hit-man is escape without detection. I would be using a silencer so as not to draw attention to myself. Like I said, the whole scene was a stage, and a diversion, along with the epileptic one, would make everyone run the wrong way. Fire crackers. But what I find most astonishing is that I have never read anything about that flash, which makes me wonder if the big shot investigators like Mark Lane weren't part of the deception too. The right side the head was blown off. A bullet coming from the right wouldn't do that. In addition, all the doctors at Parkland described a large exit wound on the right back. The bullet wouldn't do a u-turn inside the cranium .

Sorry I didn't get the pics on the same page, Can't figure out this forum yet.

ps - thanks for the words of the investigator.

reply to post by yon34

It's probably the railroad overpass.

Unfortunately, this wasn't to the left hand side of the car at this point. It was straight on, the majority of it being towards the right. There really is no viable position from the left hand side that will be suitable for this theory it seems.

The triple overpass is right in the open as well, and there was witnesses just behind it, as well as on it. None of these saw a shooter, and if they did, again, it's right out in the open thus not being a suitable position as they would have seen him/her.

I would be using a silencer so as not to draw attention to myself. Like I said, the whole scene was a stage, and a diversion, along with the epileptic one, would make everyone run the wrong way. Fire crackers.

There was no firecrackers. The shots sounded like firecrackers according to many of the witnesses. What's interesting as well is one of my favorite theories proposed was in fact the potential use of silencers or some sort of sound suppressors, particularly from the first shots fired thus why we don't see any real reaction from the crowd.

I find it very plausible. Oh, and if you have time, look up the username "BobHarris77" on youtube, he has some great videos on this stuff.

all the doctors at Parkland described a large exit wound on the right back.

Can you please provide a source? Many of them seemingly report a large wound to the front right, not the back. And I've never seen "all" of them describe an "exit" wound to the back right before.

Here's a source discussing what some of them saw for example, as well as what they said to the Commission.

Some examples telling of the side wound:

Charles Baxter

(Professor Of Surgery; Director Of Emergency Room)

According to Gerald Posner, Dr. Baxter said to him in an interview Posner says he conducted on March 12th, 1992: "I never even saw the back of his head. The wound was on the right side, not the back."

Malcolm Perry

(Assistant Professor Of Surgery):

According to Gerald Posner, Dr. Perry said to him in an interview Posner says he conducted on March 12th, 1992: "I never even saw the back of his head. The wound was on the right side, not the back." And again, according to Posner, Perry said to him in a second interview Posner says he conducted on April 2nd, 1992: "I did not see any cerebellum."

Charles Carrico, Resident Surgeon:

According to Gerald Posner, Dr Carrico said to him in an interview Posner says he conducted on March 8th, 1992: "We saw a large hole on the right side of his head. I don't believe we saw any occipital bone. It was not there. It was parietal bone."

Well there are many, but just for starters www.jfklancer.com...

"Some of the doctors who attended President John F. Kennedy in Trauma Room One at Parkland Memorial Hospital have reputedly modified their descriptions of JFK's head injuries they initially observed on 22 November 1963, most especially in so called interviews conducted by author Gerald Posner. Posner's book has been widely quoted and positively evaluated by the main stream media, but many JFK writers and researchers doubt that Posner ever actually interviewed the doctors he has quoted. Therefore, statements attributed to Parkland doctors need to be compared to what they have said previously, and particularly what they have said under oath."

Thx...S&F. Like many other ATS-ers I didn't know there were so many other films made that day on Dealey Plaza.

The thing that strikes me is how in many of these films it is as if cuts are made. The film is rolling, jumps for a split second and continues 'smoothly'. With the whole conspiracy going it would not surprise me if the real important films are edited by the secrtet-service or FBI before returned to the owners or made public.

Thanks again..

The Moving Head Wounds

www.maryferrell.org...

"If Kennedy was shot in the head from behind, why did the Parkland Hospital doctors all describe a large gaping wound in the rear of his head? They were mistaken, according to the Warren Commission...",

I will say I am one of those people who had no idea that there were other films of the assassination. That is probably naivete on my part. Of course there were, but I had never seen them. My heart went out to Tina Towner. She was a 13 year-old child who had to have permission to be excused from school to be with her parents on that day.

I think she instinctively knew to capture the adults running toward the grassy knoll. She should be applauded for that. One other film that caught my attention was the one Robert Hughes captured of the man and woman lying on the grass and the father protecting his tiny baby. If he thought the shots were from the TSBD, I don't think he would have been lying in such a way to indicate otherwise. There were too many witnesses who ran in the direction the shots they heard come from.

Did the Warren Commission not interview all of the people who ran toward the grassy knoll or the short wall?

Originally posted by yon34
The Moving Head Wounds

www.maryferrell.org...

"If Kennedy was shot in the head from behind, why did the Parkland Hospital doctors all describe a large gaping wound in the rear of his head? They were mistaken, according to the Warren Commission...",

The Warren Commission said the ER doctors and nurses were mistaken? I would think an ER doctor and nurse would have learned early on in medical training what a hole is. Isn't that what is taught in medical school?

reply to post by WarminIndy

If he thought the shots were from the TSBD

This was the Newman family you're seeing here - the gentleman in particularly is called Bill and his wife is called Gayle. Here's a much better picture of them:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/ba18a5b72dfb.jpg[/atsimg]

He's always, as far as I'm aware, maintained that the shots came from behind him, thus coming from the knoll. Here's an interesting source discussing him though.

Did the Warren Commission not interview all of the people who ran toward the grassy knoll or the short wall?

They were all "mistaken" according to the commission. Once again, here's a source for you to read through, this time though, on the Knoll.

Thank you Rising Against. I will look into that. I just think it shows the good nature of these parents to protect their children. That image is such a stark contrast to the violence these people just witnessed and I would think that their first thought was more of protecting the children before they could process that information of what they heard and saw. But it is very telling that all the adults without children ran in the general direction of the short wall and the grassy knoll.

I remember a picture my dad took when he went to Dallas a few months later. Already by that time, people were accepting the TSBD and that is what the picture was of. I think a lot of people were so interested in this that they did drive there to look at it. It is true that people who were alive then remembered exactly what they were doing when they heard about it or saw it on tv. My mom was in 10th grade and even though they were in Ohio, her high school cancelled early.

reply to post by WarminIndy

That image is such a stark contrast to the violence these people just witnessed and I would think that their first thought was more of protecting the children before they could process that information of what they heard and saw

All speculation, queries, conspiracy theories and so on alike for a moment.. you're absolutely right here. What they did is commendable to say the least. They literally just saw the head of the president of the Unites states explode no more than 15 feet away from them and there first instinct isn't to run away or anything like that.., It's to turn around, at the time not knowing the dangers, and to protect there children, the closest people to them. It's truly the sign of a good parent, IMO.

I'm glad someone like yourself noticed this and decided to bring it up for discussion as well because it is something that should be highlighted.

video.google.com...

Behind the Bushes

www.jfkmurdersolved.com...

This ought to clear a few things up

reply to post by Rising Against


Very Nice break down and explanation, thanks

BTW - The movie JFK has been pulled from the market.

reply to post by Rising Against



The most intriguing thing is that his head does not snap forward, but backwards. Even when he is shot in the throat he does not lurch forward but slumps to his left side, then we see the head shot and his head is knocked back.

Lyndon Johnson was travelling in the third car behind the President.

What I want to know, is if it were raining that day and stopped only a short time prior to the assassination, so that the order was given to take the top down from the car...how did the killer find this out.

I mean an assassination requires a great deal of planning. The killer would have had to know the route, know the buildings along the route, know where the policemen would be stationed, know an escape route and know a lot more information. For one person to do all of this, that would make that person a genius. Oswald could hardly be called genius. The killer would have to know how to shoot at a moving target, and be able to recock the weapon quickly enough to fire the next round after aiming again. Even the best snipers are only able to shoot one round before escaping. And that escape would mean through a building now crowding with policemen at exits. And Oswald would have had to been so out of breath in the amount of time it took for him to get out of the building and then several blocks away when he shot the traffic cop.

The one thing they did not look for was residue from the rifle on Oswald. The pistol he killed the cop with would have negated that evidence. Whoever did this knew information that was not readily available to the public, and there was a great deal of planning involved.

reply to post by WarminIndy

then we see the head shot and his head is knocked back.

Well to be fair.. his head does make an initial forward movement prior to a violent movement back and to the left. Here's a GIF image of frames 312 and frame 313 of the Zapruder film to show what I mean exactly:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/8aba2ea4b4fb.gif[/atsimg]

It's also worth pointing out that some of the witnesses report hearing 2 shots or 2 "noises" at the time the fatal shot struck. So, It's possible we're seeing the reaction of 2 shots - a forward movement from a shot behind, and then a movement back and to the left from a separate shot in front or from the knoll to the right.

What I want to know, is if it were raining that day and stopped only a short time prior to the assassination, so that the order was given to take the top down from the car...how did the killer find this out.

Well, personally, I think this assassination was planned well in advance and it certainly wasn't planned by a single individual - certainly not Lee Harvey Oswald anyway. The prior location's Kennedy was in were seemingly the locations where the assassination was going to take place. Take Chicago as an example, particularly the cancelled trip on the 2nd of November, a mere 3 weeks prior to the actual assassination.

There's evidence that this was one of the first real attempts at assassination on Kennedy, maybe even ones before this in fact, but the threat eventually being the contributing factor to his cancelling of it in the first place. I believe it was only due to cancelling this trip in Chicago that he decided he simply had "to go on" and meet those in Dallas (as repeatedly cancelling wasn''t helping him), despite the same threats against him here also - threats which, as we all know, were seemingly carried out.

Instead of going into all of this myself though, please do take the time to watch this short 5 minute video. It explains everything I'd want to say at this point anyway and it really is what I'd consider a "must watch":



My point is, if he wasn't going to be hit in Chicago, he was going to be hit in Dallas. If he wasn't going to be hit in Dallas, his next location was the target - But, no matter what, he's getting hit.

Anyway, In regards to the route, well, It seems as though it was common knowledge at the time. Mary Moorman in her first ever interview after the assassination, an interview we got only a few months ago now, tells us that she, and others, knew the route prior to the assassination. The changed route was only a minor change.. but it did bring Kennedy into the direct firing line of the TSDB.

In regards to assassins picking a location, well, here's an interesting snippet by JFK assassination witness Lee Bowers, someone I consider to be very credible:

Chevrolet. It entered just "seven to nine minutes before the shooting" and also bore a Goldwater campaign sticker. The Chevrolet also was bespattered by red mud and spent rather longer circling the area, driving very close to the 14-foot tower in which Bowers was. It slowly cruised away, pausing at the point which became the assassination spot.

Bowers also reported that he saw two men standing near the picket fence just before the President was killed. One he described as middle-aged and heavy-set and the other in his mid-twenties, wearing a plaid shirt or a plaid coat or jacket. The descriptions came very close to those rendered by Julia Ann Mercer of the two men she had seen in the green pick-up truck. "These men were the only two strangers in the area" said Bowers. "The others were workers whom I knew." Bowers said the two men were there while the shots were fired.

(Source)

Presumably, assuming this is all true, they knew the route prior to the assassination and were now getting themselves into position. I also managed to find this very interesting snippet from a well known mafia figure, one whom is suspected in being heavily involved in the assassination:

Johhny Roselli:

In February, 1963, William Harvey was removed as head of the ZR/RIFLE project. Harvey was now sent to Italy where he became Chief of Station in Rome. Harvey was convinced that Robert Kennedy had been responsible for his demotion. A friend of Harvey's said that he "hated Bobby Kennedy's guts with a purple passion".

Harvey continued to keep in contact with Johnny Roselli. According to Richard D. Mahoney: "On April 8, Rosselli flew to New York to meet with Bill Harvey. A week later, the two men met again in Miami to discuss the plot in greater detail... On April 21 he (Harvey) flew from Washington to deliver four poison pills directly to Rosselli, who got them to Tony Varona and hence to Havana. That same evening, Harvey and Ted Shackley, the chief of the CIA's south Florida base, drove a U-Haul truck filled with the requested arms through the rain to a deserted parking lot in Miami. They got out and handed the keys to Rosselli."

In November, 1963, Roselli travelled to Arizona with a male friend and two women. He was being followed by the FBI but on the way to Los Vegas they lost contact with him. According to Tosh Plumlee, a pilot working for the CIA, he picked up Roselli from Tampa, Florida, early on the 21st November. Plumlee then took Roselli to New Orleans. After picking up several more men, Plumlee took Roselli and his friends to Garland where Roselli and some others got off. Plumlee then went to Redbird Airport in Dallas. In an interview in April, 1992, Plumlee claimed that he was told that the objective was "to abort the assassination" of John F. Kennedy.

(Source)

If you believe James E. Files, who I'm personally unsure of at this point, then read this all the while taking what I just posted into consideration, especially the latter about being an alleged "abort team":

James Files:

"Johnny Rosselli got in the car with me and we started back to Dallas. He opened the envelope up and there was identification in there for Secret Service people and we had a map in there of the exact motorcade route that would take it through Dealey Plaza. Johnny Rosselli said well they only made one change. That was when he informed me they was coming off of Main Street on to Elm or on to Houston there...they made the zig-zag, the little turn that they should have never made. But when they made that, it was the only change in it."

(Source)

Excellent thread, who knew that there were so many videos?

I would add the following video though its not of the grassy knoll.

reply to post by TheMur


Thanks, and I suppose I should say it's at least possible that Greer fired a shot (as anything can be possible)... but I just strongly disagree that he did so, or was able to, or even would have. I just don't see it..

I'm yet to be convinced by anyone that Greer had even the slightest involvement in the assassination.