The Forgotten JFK Assassination tapes

OK, here's a question:
We live in an age of powerful computing models. Has anyone taken the time to create a computer replica of the Plaza in a sophisticated modelling program, based on all the video data? You have multiple viewpoints and overlapping times. You can cross-reference people and places belonging in all videos, and then throw it all into a virtual-reality matrix. I'm willing to bet anything you'd care to wager that SOMETHING could be learned from that.

I'm picturing some program akin to a (excuse my geek flag) holodeck or Matrix setting. That way you can stand anywhere in the plaza, and react with the people in the crowd. Look where they look, see where and why they ran where they did, etc.

Has anyone tried that?

Great post Rising Against I'm a Dallas resident and occasionally go to the county records building across the street from the School Book Depository and every time i go through Dealy Plaza I think about the assassination. There are a number of things that still puzzle me.

The first gunshot appears to be from the front in the throat (this gunshot was confirmed by the Parkland Hospital doctors who then expanded the wound for a tracheotomy) where did this bullet go ? was it still lodged in JFK since there appears to be no corresponding exit wound. Secondly JFK has a back entry wound (as shown in the autopsy photos) where did that bullet go ? If you believe the magic bullet theory JFK was shot in the back and it exited his throat and then hit Gov. John Connally causing him grievous wounds. Personally I don't believe it. Gov. Connally appears to be hit by 2 SEPARATE bullets from JFK. So my bullet count is now at 4, now comes the head shot to JFK , that's bullet number 5 also a bullet hit the windshield frame just to the right of the driver, that's bullet number 6 and also a bullet hit the curb and injured bystander James Tague, that's bullet number 7.

Additionally Numerous witnesses to the assassination reported hearing gunfire coming from the direction of the Dal-Tex building (501 Elm Place) which has a much better view of Elm Street in Dealy Plaza than the 6th floor position in the schoolbook depository building. In 1978, a scientific analysis of acoustical evidence presented before the House Select Committee on Assassinations pinpointed the Dal-Tex building as a possible source of gunfire.

This would make at least 3 sniper teams, one team in the schoolbook depository building, one on the grassy knoll and a third in the Dal-Tex building.

Additionally there are eyewitness testimony that there was a bullet hole in the windshield. Has anyone seen a picture of the windshield of the limo after the assassination ?

reply to post by Vonotar


Yes, it's out there in a documentary. Don't remember the name of it. Their conclusion, IIRC, was that the Warren Comission got it right.

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong or at least provide a link. This is ATS after all.

Great Post OP

This story has always puzzeled me.. Just look at him seconds before he gets shot, he looks sketched out. The expected thing he would be doing is is waving and smiling to the people.
He looks like he starts turning his head away like he knows its coming too.

Nice post OP great work

I just had to add this little video of the JFK assassination how the Secret Service Standdown just minutes before entering Dealey Plaza

JFK assassination: Secret Service Standdown

Well its been quite known that JFK was assinated by more than one perosn. These videos show a lot of proof that it was more than one person though.

A mystery that will remain so.. great thread on this though. I have seen many of the clips, I was more interested in the article pieces you had quoted, specifically this Gordon guy that swore up and down about a man on the sixth floor with his rifle.

The Fedora'd men, a relaxed sniper.. I wasn't around in the sixties but even considering clothing style and war on the edge, a very puzzling day indeed.

Who knows what was the real motive, real finger behind the trigger was.

Why not get a computer rendering vectoring the direction of the shots that hit John.

Wow what an awsome post! s+f straight away for awsomeness, i have only ever in my life seen 2 or 3 perspectives of the JFK incident and knew their were other footage but thought the gov confiscated most of it straight after the assassination, that being the case how much more tapes or footage is kept in some vault which shows the locaiton of the shooter. Its always intrigued me how their was also never any sound captured when the video cameras back then did have mics.

Originally posted by TheMur
To the OP you did a fantastic job with this thread SnF for you. Have you seen the alleged video breakdown of the Zaprauder film, that supposudly shows the driver Bill Greer shooting Jfk?

Hey there, thanks. And yeah, If you're talking about the breakdown of the film frame-by-frame then yes, I've seen it many times and it, in no way whatsoever, shows William Greer turn around and fire at the president from what I can see.

Here's a zoomed out image of frame 312 for example, this frame being significant as it was a single frame before the fatal shot:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/bf4e71336af0.jpg[/atsimg]

Notice how, with an enhanced image, we can see much clearer than 1 of the shooting positions can 100% be ruled out - this being the "light" that was seen in mid air that some believed to be a gun is actually nothing but the reflection from Roy Kellerman, the SS agent sat next to William Greer.

Once we zoom in, we can fully eliminate the second possible shooting position also:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/e3ab90b0e048.gif[/atsimg]

We can see a hand, not a gun. The shape of the hand can also be made out and even if this somehow was a gun.. it isn't pointing at JFK and let me once again remind all reading... this is a single frame prior to the fatal shot. If he's shooting at someone, he'd show it in this frame, but, expectantly, he does not.

This image alone debunks the Greer theory.

If some aren't satisfied at this point, ask yourselves a few questions:

Why didn't a single witness claim a shot came from inside the car? Witnesses were situated all around the president after all.

Why did Greer stick around after the assassination, at this point being completely unaware if he "got away with it"?

Why didn't Connolly, or even his wife Nellie, claim a shot came between them?

These being just a few off the top of my head. Oh, and btw, if anyone ever wants to have a look at the Zapruder film, here's a fantastic source which has broken it down frame-by-frame for us: Zapruder film - Frame 001 - Frame 486.

reply to post by Rising Against


Man....you are like some robot made for non-stop thread production. Good work! Another very informative thread that will surely teach many people many things.

reply to post by Rising Against

Excellent thread S+F!

I've found this thread incredibly informative, thank you!

On a lighter note for those Americans who are not familiar with british comedy...

Red Dwarf - JFK Episode

Naylor did an incredible job with this episode. He's trying to write a half-hour show where the audience is rooting for the cast to shoot JFK dead, while treating the man himself with honest respect and complete sincerity. And all the time bringing back his space sitcom with a story about using time travel to tell top-notch jokes about curry!

I always think of the Lincoln/Kennedy connection: booth shot Lincoln in a theater ran into a warehouse.. oswald shoots Kennedy from a warehouse and run into a theater.

Both Lincoln and Kennedy vice President was name Johnson... Lincoln secretary name was Kennedy and Kennedy secretary name was Lincoln..

The man who shot the Zapruder film name was Abraham. these are just a few of the many Lincoln/Kennedy connection....

In 1973, I was watching a documentary on the murder of JFK ... a still black-and-white photo was shown of a man standing behind the fence with a rifle aimed towards the street and JFK. I have looked and looked and have NEVER seen that photo again. I was thrilled to have seen the picture of the "fence gunman".

It is my understand that Oswalt was downstairs or on the street watching the motorcade and not up inside the building.

reply to post by NellahB

It is my understand that Oswalt was downstairs or on the street watching the motorcade and not up inside the building.

All "evidence", and yes that is debatable, points to Oswald not just being in the building at the time of the assassination.. but in the 2nd floor lunchroom.

Carolyn Arnold I believe was the last witness to see him at approximately 12:25 at the latest. The assassination itself taking place at 12:30. Police Officer Marion Baker ran into the building around 80/90 seconds after the assassination also. And he ran into Oswald on the second floor lunchroom, later changing his story to the 4th floor I believe although this was a convenient change to say the least.

Not a single witness, in between these times I highlighted above, claimed to see Oswald outside of this 2nd floor lunchroom.. so we can conclude that this is where he remained during the assassination.

reply to post by Bigfoot73

Re the Altgens photo: - I'm not disputing that it is Bill Lovelady on the steps of the Book Depository, it just strikes me as odd and possibly significant that the security men on the car's running board are looking straight at him.
They are on a moving car supposedly looking out for any security threats, which you might be forgiven for thinking would mean they shifted their gaze as soon as they had mentally eliminated the object of their attention - so why are they both looking at a man seated on the Book Depository steps? Who just so happens to look an awful lot like Oswald, even if it is not actually him?
Are they thinking ' What's he doing there '?

I'm not so sure tbh. I think It's just an unfortunate photo really. For anyone else who hasn't seen it btw, here it is:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/ba0b9b8995d2.jpg[/atsimg]

I certainly wouldn't say, especially looking at the above image, that they're looking directly at Billy here. He's barely noticeable after all. I suspect they're simply looking "out for threats" at this time really, and the TSDB just happened to be a position here only one of them was looking at the time this photo was taken.

But hey, who knows for sure.

reply to post by TheLoony

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong or at least provide a link. This is ATS after all.

Enter Rising Against.

Ok, I'm not 100%, but if this what you was thinking of?:



Please do take this with a huge pinch of salt though. Personally, I find what they claim ridiculous (and I don't appreciate the "conspiracists are crazy tone" either).. and I even believe the Single Bullet Theory is possible funnily enough, just not this way.

It's from a documentary called "Beyond Conspiracy" as well. Here's the full documentary.

reply to post by Rising Against


First off, great thread, more info than any show I've seen on the films.
Second, it always struck me as odd the way Zapruder reacts after the shooting (Bell film 0:19, this can be seen), just walks off the oppisite direction. Strange for hearing the report from a gunshot behind and to his right.
I can't remember exactally what film shows him laying down later on though.

Also, Behind The Bullet debunked the "ghost shooter" by computer enhancment. Besides a gunshot from there and Zapruder would jerk the camera that direction. (Unless he knew it was coming).
Just curious, how many times have you gotten to go to Dallas?