Kid brother just turned 18...need advice on where to buy a cheap AR or AK online

Originally posted by tjack

Originally posted by Soldier of God

Originally posted by camaro68ss
get a AR-15, AK's are a joke. Gun show is your best option. there you will have many choices to pick from

make sure to buy lots of ammo. once you find that number of ammo you want, double it

AK's have a lot more knock down power than AR's and continue to shoot under extreme circumstances where AR's would cease firing.

...and their dirt simple design boils down to extreme reliability under the most adverse conditions.
I design machines for a living so I know an elegant design when I see one. Christ, you could hose one out with gravel and it would run.
If I KNOW there's going to be a battle, 1st, I wouldn't show up because who wants to get shot at, right? 2nd, if I had no choice in the matter, I'm taking the AK. Complete no brainer. Honestly!

"A joke" he says...

edit on 12-7-2011 by tjack because: I wanted to add the winking smiley to show that I'm just kidding around....but not about the AK, it rocks man, you can't go wrong. Don't dress it up, don't put anything on it whatsoever, well, maybe a shoulder strap but THATS IT. NOTHING ELSE. Defeats the whole purpose, man, if you dress it up.

yeah a joke, you cant aim the dang thang and the recoil is hell. how are you going to hit anyone with it? your going to fire all over the place. your worryed about it shotting after you pouring dirt in it. you should be worryed about aiming the thing and hitting targets down range. If AK's are the guns to get then why did the US Army go with the M-16? hummm i wounder why, o yeah, thats right, because you cant hit anything with a AK

reply to post by camaro68ss


Ask any serious military soldier and they'd take an AK over an AR in a life or death gun fight any day.

Originally posted by Soldier of God
AK's have a lot more knock down power than AR's and continue to shoot under extreme circumstances where AR's would cease firing.

There's no such thing as "knock down power."

There is stopping power, but even that is subjective in the best of analysis.

At the muzzle, the 7.62x39mm round has about a 200 foot pound edge in energy over the 5.56x45mm round. At 500 yards the 5.56 has surpassed it in energy (caught it at 200 yards) and has dropped far less...

Try this:

ballisticscalculator.winchester.com...

You can dial them up side by side.... 62gr FMJ 5.56 and a 123gr 7.62 FMJ...

The 7.62x39mm has it's place, and it's good at what it was designed for, but it comes up well short against the 5.56... Don't believe me? Ask the Soviets Russians...

They copied the 5.56 when they had the 7.62... Por qué?

reply to post by Mirthful Me


OK, I'll shoot a target with my .22 and then with my .45 and you tell me there is no such thing as knock down power.

Great White Hunter John “Pondoro” Taylor suggested the Taylor Knockdown formula (TKO), sometimes called “Taylor Index”, which integrates calibre and momentum to generate a relative value that is a guide to the potential of a round to incapacite a target.


TKO value = [ Weight (gr) x Terminal Velocity (fps) x calibre (in) ] ÷ 7000

reply to post by camaro68ss


Well, we're all entitled to our own opinion now aren't we. Mine "aims" just fine if by that you mean it's sighted in, recoils little (it's a 74, not a 47) and I'm not worried about putting gravel in it, I was just sayin'! Jeeze, man. I've shot both platforms, and spent ZERO seconds dicking with the AK, and tens of minutes getting the AR to run. But that's just my experience, and my opinion. Take it for what it's worth....or not.

Originally posted by tjack
reply to post by camaro68ss

 

Well, we're all entitled to our own opinion now aren't we. Mine "aims" just fine if by that you mean it's sighted in, recoils little (it's a 74, not a 47) and I'm not worried about putting gravel in it, I was just sayin'! Jeeze, man. I've shot both platforms, and spent ZERO seconds dicking with the AK, and tens of minutes getting the AR to run. But that's just my experience, and my opinion. Take it for what it's worth....or not.

if it takes you 10 mins for your AR to "run" you must not be cleaning it. But as you say, you have your opinion and i have mine. All i know is i can boss up the rang with my AR-15 with low recoil.

a .22 is actually more likely to kill you depending on the location of wound. The rounds tend to bounce around inside the body causing lots of damage in lots of places where a .45 makes a small hole on one side and a big one on the other.

I want to convert at least one AR-15 to use a piston system which done correctly can combine some of the AK's better traits with the AR platform. Choosing decent ammo, taking good care of the AR and either building it or making sure it was built correctly and you have an excellent platform.

You can also get ARs chambered for .308, 6.5 and even 7.62. Then there's the "dead right there" variant of 223 / 5.56 if you want to go sleeper.

reply to post by Soldier of God


Sophomoric, juvenile, and stated as only the profane can...

You might want to read this...

I will be so bold as to assume you didn't take physics in your nunnage... There was this guy Newton, and he had this law, known as the Third Law of Motion...

Not to bore or overwhelm you, but anything powerful enough to knock a target of similar size to yourself, will knock you down as well... Then there are the intricacies of terminal and wound ballistics... But that would be a result of oyster inflammation before a Sus scrofa domestica...

reply to post by Mirthful Me


I don't need physics to know the AK has many advantages over the AR and I don't need snide remarks from you either. Keep your personal attacks to yourself.

Originally posted by camaro68ss

Originally posted by tjack
reply to post by camaro68ss

 

Well, we're all entitled to our own opinion now aren't we. Mine "aims" just fine if by that you mean it's sighted in, recoils little (it's a 74, not a 47) and I'm not worried about putting gravel in it, I was just sayin'! Jeeze, man. I've shot both platforms, and spent ZERO seconds dicking with the AK, and tens of minutes getting the AR to run. But that's just my experience, and my opinion. Take it for what it's worth....or not.

if it takes you 10 mins for your AR to "run" you must not be cleaning it. But as you say, you have your opinion and i have mine. All i know is i can boss up the rang with my AR-15 with low recoil.

The AK-74 has low recoil as well, and it field strips with no tools down to 4 parts that you can pretty much wipe down or hose out and be up and running again in no time. Don't get me wrong, the AR is a fine weapon too, and for fun times on the range is clearly the better choice. I still know which one I'd pick for the proverbial "zombie apocalypse" though, and it's the AK-74.

BTW your avatar and name is my dream car. How about that one the French chick fixed up in the movie "Better Off Dead"? *drools on self*

Originally posted by Soldier of God
Great White Hunter John “Pondoro” Taylor suggested the Taylor Knockdown formula (TKO), sometimes called “Taylor Index”, which integrates calibre and momentum to generate a relative value that is a guide to the potential of a round to incapacite a target.

TKO value = [ Weight (gr) x Terminal Velocity (fps) x calibre (in) ] ÷ 7000

This is why I despise posting in this forum... It's the Taylor Knock Out Formula, or TKO(F) not "knock down." The purpose is for the comparison of two cartridges, typically of diametrically opposed properties and their relative projected terminal performance.

You've made no case... Well, you've made one...

Originally posted by Soldier of God
reply to post by Mirthful Me

 

I don't need physics to know the AK has many advantages over the AR and I don't need snide remarks from you either. Keep your personal attacks to yourself.

edit on 12-7-2011 by Soldier of God because: (no reason given)

I would like to know what your "many" advantages a AK has over a AR?

Ill do one for you, you can pour dirt in it and it will still work. ok, yeah, but who in there right mind is going to be pouring dirt in there guns? Any other advantages? i thinks thats about it. everything else is a disadvantage

Originally posted by camaro68ss

Originally posted by Soldier of God
reply to post by Mirthful Me

 

I don't need physics to know the AK has many advantages over the AR and I don't need snide remarks from you either. Keep your personal attacks to yourself.

edit on 12-7-2011 by Soldier of God because: (no reason given)

I would like to know what your "many" advantages a AK has over a AR?

Ill do one for you, you can pour dirt in it and it will still work. ok, yeah, but who in there right mind is going to be pouring dirt in there guns?

Any other advantages? i thinks thats about it. everything else is a disadvantage

Well in a SHTF situation that would last more than just a couple of months. Reliability without the need to keep or have the means or time to clean the weapon takes the number one spot for me…. AK47 it is.

Btw,in a SHTF situation… if you’re going to fight your way thru an urban/city environment. Which is full of cover for those baddies who want to harm you. Which also includes vehicles to take cover from or shoot from within. Wouldn’t you want a round that can punch thru light cover like the 7.62x39mm? On the whole accuracy thing, I don’t know about you cowboys, but if I see someone 700m away I’m running the other direction and getting my family to safety.

Originally posted by tjack

Originally posted by camaro68ss

Originally posted by tjack
reply to post by camaro68ss

 

Well, we're all entitled to our own opinion now aren't we. Mine "aims" just fine if by that you mean it's sighted in, recoils little (it's a 74, not a 47) and I'm not worried about putting gravel in it, I was just sayin'! Jeeze, man. I've shot both platforms, and spent ZERO seconds dicking with the AK, and tens of minutes getting the AR to run. But that's just my experience, and my opinion. Take it for what it's worth....or not.

if it takes you 10 mins for your AR to "run" you must not be cleaning it. But as you say, you have your opinion and i have mine. All i know is i can boss up the rang with my AR-15 with low recoil.

The AK-74 has low recoil as well, -snip-

Huh? Have you shot one? I mean a standard issue, most likely to be hidden in the trunk of a drug dealer's car variant? The muzzle climb on a standard AK is so horrible it's only useful for anti-aircraft purposes in anything other than single shot mode.

Keep in mind, this is supposed to be this kid's first assault rifle. He needs something he can control that's easy to shoot and has the accuracy to enable him to develop his tactical shooting skills.

If he was younger I'd suggest a carbine type weapon such as a Beretta Storm.

If his ultimate development path in tactical shooting is the performance of drive by's I'd start him off w/ the AK and install the SKS type muzzle brake on it.

Once his skills and bad habits are out of the way there are some nice AK variants out there. Knights has one, I believe (I think it's Knights) and that dude from Louisiana (Red Jacket) builds some decent AK mods.

reply to post by ecoparity


I've shot it, plenty. But I don't quite know what you mean by "standard issue". It's not full auto if that's what you mean. Even if it was, I think it would be easily controlled, remember, it's an AK-74, not 47. Smaller caliber, 5.45x39mm, comparable to .223.
It's semi-auto so there's no problems with muzzle climb. Follow up shots are quick as most of the recoil goes to operating the action. Open sights, and dirt simple as I've said before.
You can search at Gunbroker, GunsAmerica, etc. I got mine for under 400 when a friend of mine bought several and got a discount. You can usually find them for 600-700, which fits nicely inside the stated budget. Surplus ammo for it is cheap too.
And nobody actually pours dirt in their AK, but isn't it nice to know that if you had to use it, you know, outside...where there's dirt, that you could dive for cover in that dirt and not worry about it? And shoot literally thousands of rounds through it w/o having to stop and clean it every once in a while? I think so. I love my AK.

reply to post by DarkCloud45


I think you should get him an AK-74 with the black furniture and a bipod and foregrip, make him find his own optics after he gets familiar with the ironsights. That way you have the reliability of an AK with an easier to handle and (I think) cheaper round. Plus it can look all black and tactical, if your into that.

Originally posted by sir_slide
How about a 22. rifle? No one really needs an AK unless they want to go to war, which is....well, you know.

Please don't take offense to that, just trying to minimize the amount of 18 year olds who own 'bad ass' Ak 47's

edit on 12-7-2011 by sir_slide because: (no reason given)

The AK that he would get is the semi-auto type (legal), because a full auto is illegal unless you have a class 4 permit (VERY expensive) and a full auto AK would cost a minimum of $6500 +. There really is no difference between a .22 and an AK except for the size of the round. Besides, a .22 is just as dangerous as any other rifle, and in some ways is more deadly. A 7.62 will almost always exit the body after entering. A .22 will almost always "bounce around" inside the body causing much more damage than a round that exited cleanly.

Originally posted by OptimusSubprime
The AK that he would get is the semi-auto type (legal), because a full auto is illegal unless you have a class 4 permit (VERY expensive) and a full auto AK would cost a minimum of $6500 +.

It's a class III FFL, and no, that's not what you need to own one... It's an NFA registration or tax stamp.

It is a common misconception[5] that an individual must have a "Class 3 License" in order to own NFA firearms. An FFL is required as a prerequisite to become a Special Occupation Taxpayer (SOT): Class 1 importer, Class 2 manufacturer-dealer or Class 3 dealer in NFA firearms, not an individual owner. Legal possession of an NFA firearm by an individual requires transfer of registration within the NFA registry. An individual owner does not need to be an NFA dealer to buy Title II firearms. The sale and purchase of NFA firearms is, however, taxed and regulated, as follows:

All NFA items must be registered with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF). Private owners wishing to purchase an NFA item must obtain approval from the ATF, obtain a signature from the Chief Law Enforcement Officer (CLEO) who is the county sheriff or city or town chief of police (not necessarily permission), pass an extensive background check to include submitting a photograph and fingerprints, fully register the firearm, receive ATF written permission before moving the firearm across state lines, and pay a tax. The request to transfer ownership of an NFA item is made on an ATF Form 4.[6] Many times law enforcement officers will not sign the NFA documents. There have been several unfavorable lawsuits where plaintiffs have been denied NFA approval for a transfer. These lawsuit include; Lomont v O'Neil 2002 9th circuit, Westfall v Miller 1996 5th circuit, and Steele v National Firearms Branch 1985 11th circuit. In response Tennessee and Alaska have passed state laws which require the CLEO to execute the NFA documents. On October 28, 2010 in response to a writ of mandamus a Tennessee Williamson County Chancellor Robbie Beal found that the sheriff or CLEO is not required to execute NFA documents according to Tenn. Code Ann. 39-17-1361.

en.wikipedia.org...

The smart way to go is with an NFA Trust.

reply to post by OptimusSubprime


Fair enough, cheers for the response!