A Challenge for Believers in God.

reply to post by ExistentialNightmare


There is no such thing as a divinely motivated evil action.

Humans have free will, any choice that is made is made through our own actions.We are responsible, only us.

Originally posted by megabytz
Do I think horrible acts would all disappear in the absence of religion? Of course not, but I do think they would be curbed substantially.

So your position is that if humanity had no concept of religion we would see less religious fanaticism based fighting? That's kinda like saying it we got rid of all the hammers we wound see a serious drop in the number of people hit in the head with hammers....when in fact they would just start using rocks. A person simply uses the tools available to them...

reply to post by NewAgeMan


How is that morality?

reply to post by megabytz


yes i have proof obama is not christian. as you have stated, this is not the forum for obama topics. let me pic a leader that is not obama.......the president of iran, saddam hussien...mohamar kaddaffi. theres a list for you to choose from. leaders, and religous leaders to thier countries . all guilty of crimes to humanity, and are not christian. as far as your non belief in religion..that is your right that i have defended, however by your own admission fail to believe in morality. you might want to expand on that. maybe a thread of your own, "why morality is wrong". good luck in life or prison or wherever.

Originally posted by kinglizard

Originally posted by megabytz
Do I think horrible acts would all disappear in the absence of religion? Of course not, but I do think they would be curbed substantially.

So your position is that if humanity had no concept of religion we would see less religious fanaticism based fighting? That's kinda like saying it we got rid of all the hammers we wound see a serious drop in the number of people hit in the head with hammers....when in fact they would just start using rocks. A person simply uses the tools available to them...

Do you see many people worshiping hammers or looking to hammers for inspiration. How about claiming that their brand of hammer is better than another and willing to kill for it.

We would see a serious drop in the number of people hit with hammers and if someone created a new version of a hammer it would still be a hammer.

They may kill people with other items but does that justify the existence of the hammer?





That was a weird post.

Originally posted by TylerDurden2U
reply to post by megabytz

 

yes i have proof obama is not christian. as you have stated, this is not the forum for obama topics. let me pic a leader that is not obama.......the president of iran, saddam hussien...mohamar kaddaffi. theres a list for you to choose from. leaders, and religous leaders to thier countries . all guilty of crimes to humanity, and are not christian. as far as your non belief in religion..that is your right that i have defended, however by your own admission fail to believe in morality. you might want to expand on that. maybe a thread of your own, "why morality is wrong". good luck in life or prison or wherever.

Oh please show your proof that Obama is not a christian, since you seem to know the hearts of men.

No they aren't christian yet they are religious. I am not picking on christianity.

What exactly do the leaders of today that follow ancient religions have to do with the law giver of a particular religion?

You have still failed to see the point of my post, which I have spelled out for you numerous times, teaching the ten commandments is not a moral act. I merely commented on the hypocrisy of handing down a so called list of rules, that are taken today as a moral code, then slaughtering 3,000 people.

Did you really just say that I will go to prison for my non-belief?

When did I say that I do not believe in morality?

How old are you?

lol megabytz

reply to post by megabytz


your no fun!! your a dumbass !

Originally posted by kinglizard

Originally posted by megabytz
Do I think horrible acts would all disappear in the absence of religion? Of course not, but I do think they would be curbed substantially.

So your position is that if humanity had no concept of religion we would see less religious fanaticism based fighting? That's kinda like saying it we got rid of all the hammers we wound see a serious drop in the number of people hit in the head with hammers....when in fact they would just start using rocks. A person simply uses the tools available to them...

Well-said.

I've always heard Atheists use the wars "started" by Christians and all the immoral stuff Christians do as discrediting God (why they would want to discredit something they don't even believe exists is beyond me.. "Nah, Unicorns don't exist - but if they did, here's all the reasons they're evil.."), when it all comes down to Freewill and mankind's sinful nature that carries out it's acts in the name of God, painting the rest of us in a horrid color.

Take Harold Camping for example. Attempting to "predict" the Rapture on May 21st. Sure, some believed him, but I don't personally know of anyone, especially Christians, who believed him, for obvious reasons - yet when that day came around, I heard people on several sites making posts such as, "I don't see how any Christian can show their face on the 22nd."

One does something, and the rest are labelled as lunatics.

Oh, darn. I thought the challenge was going to involve trivia questions or something. I am real good at trivia.

reply to post by bogomil


isnt that the truth! we have bankers and lawyers !

As far as it pertains to Christianity, man has free will, believers and non believers alike. You basically get your entire life to come to god and live a moral life, there are no limitations on behavior. The real difference between Christians and atheists is the believe in a fixed definition of morality. This in no way determines how one may decide to exercise their free will. You can go about quoting the old testament till the sun goes down, but its just showing that you have never read the new testament where Jesus basically demonstrates that the laws of god should be adhered to with common sense and obeyed in the obvious spirit of the law rather than the letter of the law as was done in the old testament.

Given the right set of circumstances society can normalize anything, we might be drawn into wars of aggression in order to steal another countries resources, we may celebrate sexual deviancy, we might idolize people for behaving like animals, we might hate our fellow humans and feel that starving the third world and hope to eliminating the middle class is a good thing, or maybe we'd kill 300,000 unborn babies a year. Oh wait.. we already do, thanks secularism.

Morals are mostly common sense and logic. You don't need a God to be moral. You don't need a Good to be immoral. You can be moral with or without a God and you can be without morals with or without a God. It's all 3rd person perspective, and of course yours, but mostly others.

Moral is a word pertaining to or concerning the principles or rules of right conduct or the distinction between right and wrong. Before the ten commandments it was not uncommon to lie, cheat, steal, worship ideals or commit adultery. Basically, morals did not exist because there were no set of principles to follow.

Now, back in the days of Abraham, there were two cities named Sodom and Gomorrah. The people who lived there had turned away from God. They didn’t care about doing what was good and right. The citizens worshipped idols and the men of the city had anal sex with one another. This was common during this era and was part of the norm, because there were no set of principles.
The world was less populated then. There was no writing and word did not travel fast. Only those who had a personal relationship with God understood right from wrong.
Then Moses provided the world with a set of principals, and everyone was provided the opportunity to be moral. The ten commandments (set of principals) are below:

ONE: 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'

TWO: 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.'

THREE: 'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.'

FOUR: 'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.'

FIVE: 'Honor your father and your mother.'

SIX: 'You shall not murder.'

SEVEN: 'You shall not commit adultery.'

EIGHT: 'You shall not steal.'

NINE: 'You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.'

TEN: 'You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.'

These principals have been instilled in humanity for so long that their origins are often forgotten. To answer your question, if “a believer” had never provided “nonbelievers” with morality then you would be living in a completely different world. Because you have been provided with a set of principles (ten commandments), you are no different from a believer, as long as you follow them or try to.

Each set of morals has its place. If you covet your neighbor’s wife, then you will eventually begin to commit adultery, then you will lie about the affair, and if your neighbor finds out that you have had an affair with his wife then he will kill you. Considering that moral behavior is defined by the principles of the ten commandments, you are then an amoral person.

One thing that Believers can do, that unbelievers can’t or don’t do is keep the Sabbath day holy by attending church. We don’t use the lord’s name in vain. We don’t put any other gods before our god, and we don’t worship any images and idols.

If being moral is defined by the set of principals from the ten commandments, then you are not moral if you do not follow these principals.

reply to post by Lionhearte

One does something, and the rest are labelled as lunatics.

Didn't you know the most popular fallacy is using the exception to define the rule?

Originally posted by megabytz
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

It cannot be verified by evidence.

Says who, you? You're only making my previous statement more accurate. Many, many people for thousands of years have had their litmus tests met. it's not a matter of there being no evidence, it's a matter of how skeptical one's dial is set to.

It can only be verified by the feelings of a believer in their suspension of all rationality.

More prejudicial arbitrary conjecture. Read up on Dr. Ivan Panin's work on the heptadic structures of scripture.

reply to post by ExistentialNightmare


This thread makes no difference in any sort of way. All people do things wrong. There is not one person on this planet that has never committed a sin. Yahushua (Jesus) was sinless. To expect a Christian to be sinless because of what they believe and try to teach people is ridiculous. Even if a man repented to the point of no sin, there was sin before that as well.

As for immoral and moral actions. Anyone can do a good deed, and anyone can have malicious intent.

Elijah was a prophet who killed people. You could say he had a "license to kill." Does that make him immoral? No.

The Two Witnesses will be able to kill anyone who stands in their way and tries to hurt or kill them and strike the Earth with all plagues as often as they will, cause it not to rain, and that's still not immoral. The world always hates prophets. People hate prophets. They will get their just due. People would rather hear Antichrist and the False Prophet than a prophet. So since they are empowered by Yah, it is not immoral to speak of repentance to a wicked world or nation. They have carte blanche so given by Yahweh, who created the galaxies and universe one can behold, to do such things. Regardless of your confined opinion. If you don't believe why do you feel the need to taunt people?

The point I'm trying to make is you can look for evidence without the Spirit, or you can understand the evidence with the Spirit. You can see how the wind blows on trees and grass and feel it, yet you cannot see it. Yah turns lives around, and fills a gap only He can fill, and you see the effect He can have on people, yet you do not see this.

You may have helped someone out before and a believer may have accidentally slipped up in sin, but all people make choices. You can't use this logic to justify atheist viewpoints.

Found God? Have Jesus in your heart??


...pics or it didn't happen.

Ok, here's one.

A moral act that could not be carried out by a nonbeliever but by a Christian believer would be to go up to a person who looks really sad, ask to hold their hand and with their permission, look them in the eye and with genuine sincerety, verbally state that Jesus Christ's only two commandments were to love Him with all their heart, mind and soul and to love their neighbor as themselves, all the while believing what they say is true.

Curious as to what the dilemma is when it's right in our faces. Believe or don't believe. You either do, or don't. It's your mind, accept it or don't. Why do people need a million other opinions first before they decide to let God in their lives or to not be in their lives? Just do it. Like what the Nike ad says. And then there's Nike the Goddess of Victory, and maybe that ties into Jesus Christ's victory with a feminine public proclomation from a mere human in the above statement...I don't know because I am not sure if I believe that. Are you getting my drift?