A Challenge for Believers in God.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


It cannot be verified by evidence.

It can only be verified by the feelings of a believer in their suspension of all rationality.

Originally posted by ExistentialNightmare
What about immoral acts? It's not hard to think of examples whereby immoral acts are carried out by someone who thinks they have a "divine" warrant, by someone who thinks they have Holy permission.

edit on 6-7-2011 by ExistentialNightmare because: (no reason given)

Well, Muslims have "Holy permission" from their God to commit immoral acts such as raping any non-Muslim woman or girl, raping Muslim boys because they are considered to be "girls" before they reach puberty, paedophilia in marrying children as young as 5, throwing homosexuals off high buildings, killing any non-Muslim, burning down Christian churches and shooting Christians as they run out the door, stoning adulterers, chopping off the hands of little kids for stealing a piece of fruit from a market stall, throwing acid in the face of women who refuse to wear veils, teaching Muslim children to behead non-Muslims by slowly sawing off their heads from the front---to name but a few.

reply to post by ExistentialNightmare


LOL what are you expecting one of us to say...that we can fly?

reply to post by Tib50


Don't forget raping a women in order to relieve the shame of a crime committed by her brother.

Christianity and judaism are not free from atrocious acts either.

Be an equal opportunity critic.

reply to post by Evanzsayz


I wouldn't really expect someone to say that they have a cosmic daddy that watches over them, hears all prayers simultaneously, created the earth in 6 days, or has a ticket to heaven while others who do not subscribe to their beliefs have a ticket to hell either.

It wouldn't surprise me if a theist claimed they could fly.

Originally posted by ExistentialNightmare
Name a moral act that could be carried out by a believer (person with faith); that could not be carried out by a non-believer (person without faith in god)

Prayer and worship, in Spirit and in Truth.

Prayerful expressions of Gratitude, to God as Supreme Being/Creator.

Love of God as the great giver of all life.

Originally posted by bogomil

Originally posted by OptimusSubprime
reply to post by ExistentialNightmare

 

Come on, you can do better than this can't you? This isn't a challenge, it is an attempt to lure unsuspecting Christians into your Atheist gauntlet. It is also an attempt to get flags and stars by pandering to the Atheist crowd here on ATS. Again, I think that you will have to do better than this. I don't know anyone that has said that Christians are more kind or more apt to performing acts of kindness or compassion because they believe in God. There are good people and bad people in all groups and in all walks of life.

edit on 6-7-2011 by OptimusSubprime because: (no reason given)

We actually DO have many christian preachers or missionaries on this forum, who in one way or another claim superior qualities for themselves or what they represent.

Then they are not being true Christians.

I know flying is not a "moral" or "immoral" act but its something someone would say is "insane" kinda like your challenge to christians

Originally posted by megabytz

It cannot be verified by evidence.

It can only be verified by the feelings of a believer in their suspension of all rationality.

Actually this is incorrect, many believers start out as skeptics and unbelievers who in their attempts to disprove the Bible instead find that there is a mountain of evidence that supports much of the Bible. I'll give you just one example- for hundreds of years (maybe longer) people argued that Pontius Pilate did not exist because there was no evidence of him in Roman records, that he was a Biblical fabrication and therefore was a solid example that the Bible was not literal. They argued that such an important person should have been mentioned in secular records as well, and the lack of such information was proof that he didn't exist. In 1961 the "Pilate Stone" was discovered which not only named Pilate, but had an incription that listed him as a Roman prefect from 26-36 AD, the very window in which the Bible states that he presided over the trial of Jesus. I know one piece of evidence isn't going to sway you, but it's one of many examples of how people claim a lack of evidence proves something, but then when evidence eventually turns up they just say "well OK, he may have been real, but that doesn't prove Jesus was real." There's never going to be enough evidence for some people to believe.

Some believers may believe based on "feelings" as you say (and who are you to deny their understanding of the source of those feelings?), but you are selling short the many believers who came to faith based on exhaustive research.

Originally posted by megabytz
reply to post by Tib50

 

Don't forget raping a women in order to relieve the shame of a crime committed by her brother.

Christianity and judaism are not free from atrocious acts either.

Ah yes, so which atrocious acts have "Holy permission" and "divine warrant" from Christianity and Judaism?

Be an equal opportunity critic.

You are quite right that there are, in fact, TWO "religions" that give "Holy permission" and "divine warrant" for murder, kidnapping, slavery, rape, paedophilia, torture, mutilation and human sacrifice: one is Islam, and the other is satanism.

reply to post by Tib50


Really?

Is spreading herpes to children because of a divine covenant moral?

Translating a message into the language of third world countries that condoms spread AIDS based on some obscure religious morality is okay?

Telling children they will suffer in hell if they do not worship your god is okay?

Do I need to mention the inquisition and the crusades?

"But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me."
– Luke 19.27 *

Has been claimed as the rationale for atrocities throughout history. Divine warrant?

Do I have to speak of atrocities in germany, rwanda, and vietnam by christians who claimed a divine warrant?

No monotheistic religion is better than the next. They all use divine warrant to justify some of the most atrocious acts in human history. Some have adapted their religion to the morality of the day while others have not. It could be said that the ones that have not at least have the courage of their convictions.

These acts come from an interpretation of holy books from all monotheistic religions.





Unbelievably, I almost forgot the atrocities committed by a certain group of people because of a certain strip of land that they claim a certain god promised to them.

reply to post by SavedOne


That is still in no way evidence of the divinity of Jesus or the accuracy of the bible as a whole. It doesn't even prove the existence of Jesus.

Yes some people do suspend reason and logic because of the lure of religion.

I did the opposite. I turned from the cognitive dissonance that religion perpetuates and embraced the reason that I had suppressed for so long.

What I find weird is the way some think or imagine that Christians live outside of humanity somehow. Christians have all the shortcomings, desires, prejudices, passions...etc as any other human that has ever lived. We are you and you are us, there is no difference.

We have a belief like most humans and try to follow some teachings we find to be true like many other people do but we are still just simple old humans.

reply to post by kinglizard


I agree we are all just simple old humans, yet there is a logical pathway to commit the most heinous acts imaginable when you earnestly believe you have a divine warrant.

Religion is intellectually and morally irrelevant.

Originally posted by bogomil

Originally posted by OptimusSubprime
reply to post by ExistentialNightmare

 

Come on, you can do better than this can't you? This isn't a challenge, it is an attempt to lure unsuspecting Christians into your Atheist gauntlet. It is also an attempt to get flags and stars by pandering to the Atheist crowd here on ATS. Again, I think that you will have to do better than this. I don't know anyone that has said that Christians are more kind or more apt to performing acts of kindness or compassion because they believe in God. There are good people and bad people in all groups and in all walks of life.

edit on 6-7-2011 by OptimusSubprime because: (no reason given)

We actually DO have many christian preachers or missionaries on this forum, who in one way or another claim superior qualities for themselves or what they represent.

yes, and there are also Atheists on this forum who think that all Christians are retarded neanderthals. I prefer to meet somewhere in the middle where common sense and respectful discourse resides.

Originally posted by megabytz
*snip* yet there is a logical pathway to commit the most heinous acts imaginable when you earnestly believe you have a divine warrant.*snip*

That is human nature is it Not? People use wealth, power, status, religion, greed, birth right as a reason to commit horrible acts. The problem is the ego...

Originally posted by kinglizard

Originally posted by megabytz
*snip* yet there is a logical pathway to commit the most heinous acts imaginable when you earnestly believe you have a divine warrant.*snip*

That is human nature is it Not? People use wealth, power, status, religion, greed, birth right as a reason to commit horrible acts. The problem is the ego...

True and that lumps religion in with all those things. Many times using wealth, status, power, and birth right as a justification stem from religious belief.

Do I think horrible acts would all disappear in the absence of religion? Of course not, but I do think they would be curbed substantially.

I also think the chances of the world being sucked into a religiously inspired apocalypse would be next to nill.

I've never cheated on my girlfriend, I never stole from my friends, I make it a priority to always tell the truth no matter how hard that can be for me or for the other person to hear, I oppose violence and I strongly oppose all wars. I do not worship false gods and despise Money...

All of which make me a better Christian than most of my friends who preach to me what to believe in. I don't need religion to be a good man, all I need is common sense. I am not sinless but I've learned and became a better person which is more than I can say for most of my Religious friends.

reply to post by OptimusSubprime


I see many atheist treating christians with respect in these forums. I see a lot of christians getting hurt feelings because they are told they are ignorant. If someone points out that you are ignorant about a subject it is not disrespectful.

I see a lot of christians claiming absolute truth and then refusing to listen to reason.

Telling someone that their beliefs are silly when they fail to stand up to logic and reason is not disrespectful. It is simply pointing out the truth. Religion and the religious are not some sacred cow that we must tiptoe around.

I will never pull any punches when dealing with the illogical. I will respect the person but not the religion.

reply to post by Cocasinpry


Thats great that you recognize those things are not derived from your religion.

You mean you despise the love of money, right? You couldn't despise money or you wouldn't be using a computer bought with money.