God is GOOD and I will defend Him. A Challenge for Atheists

Sure. You were originally talking about the tribal God of the OT and contrasting this against the NT version. Here is my reply.

Jesus was the Living Torah. His knowledge of it is obvious if He is God. God defends the loving against those who steal, kill and destroy. We are not at liberty to judge God over the OT when we are not aware of the situation. Other than what we read in the OT, God demonstrates His judgment over those who steal, kill and destroy. He protects. This is a vastly different intent than the converse actions of evil. God is good. We could say a Police officer is evil for protecting an innocent teen against a drug dealer with no problem. God provided this universe for you without asking anything except your love for Him and others. His grace is free to you but costly to Him. God is good.

I was pointing out that Jesus is the same God in the OT as the NT. God is Jesus in the flesh. He is the Living WORD. Jesus was an expert in the law of the OT since He is God in the flesh. Jesus was as much the God of the Torah as the prophets and the NT. I fail to see your confusion with my Christian beliefs in the trinity of God. Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Please quote me specifically when you accuse me of deceit. It takes less time to defend against your attack.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

Would you like to qualify your earlier claim of being a Christian? Would you like to do a little disclosure so people know where you are coming from? In reply to my questions about Jesus, you say, "If he was God", that reminds me of the devil in the temptation in the wilderness story in the Gospels. Then you give a slogan of the "Jewish Identity" sect. Would you like to explain any of this, out of fairness to your readers? I believe Jesus is God, do you? I do qualify it a bit that Jesus says the Father is greater, and I accept it though the only God I know is the One represented in the person of Jesus Christ. We know the Father through him. There is no other way. If you believe there is, don't you think you should go ahead and admit it?
these are the first three words of the OP,

As a Christian. . .

so it is important and on topic for this thread.

edit on 5-7-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

i was raised by a catholic father and a church of england (prodistant) mother , two branches of christianity that are STILL at war with one another so as i grew older and possibly a little wiser and took notice of the events and came up with my own standpoint.
In my life i have had many occasions to doubt the existance of a daity but as yet i have seen or heard NO REAL PROOF that they either exist or not so i came up with a theory which is pretty simple ...the only faith you need is faith in yourself and the loved ones that surround you . i do not subscibe to the anthrophromic personification of A GOD, (big chap booming voice robes and beard) nor do i doubt the belief system of anybody who is either lucky enough to have true belief in their chosen diaty or absolutley no religous following.
Each person has a right to beleive in whatever they want too from pagen icons to the omnipresent THEIR choice as its MY CHOICE to be agnostic on this

HOWEVER...

most wars are based on faith , politics comes into it but history tells us faith is there someplace lurking in the shadows. My question is why are their soooo many different faiths all claiming to be the ONE TRUE FAITH with some of their followers beings fundamentalist in attitude surely either they are all correct or none of them are!

religon is infact a media tool to control the masses instill fear or hope when in truth the only thing that the organised religons seek is money to fund their own agenda ITS A CORPORATE BUSINESS and little or no attention is paid to the masses that fund this corporation .....JUST AN OPINION.

reply to post by SuperiorEd

It takes less time to defend against your attack.

Asking questions about weird sounding replies.
I was not accusing you of deciet, just asking if you were keeping something secret that some readers would think was important. So if you are a Christian as you are indicating, then you have a funny (to me) way of explaining the godhead.
Here is a quote from Wikipedia,

Many Messianics affirm the Holy Trinity. . .

That, combined with your statement,

Jesus was as much the God of the Torah. . .

makes me feel uneasy, along with your not denying that you are "Messianic". The wikipedia quote continues,

the God the Father; God the Son; and the Holy Spirit — as three representations of the same divinity,

That is not Christian from any normal accepted religion. All conventions of the Trinity in the Christian religion recognize the distinct individuality of the three persons of the godhead. So, I will ask you straight out, yes or no, are you of a "Jewish Identity" sect?

I am not Jewish as far as I know. As for the trinity, read my thread on it here. We can view God in may ways when it comes to His three persons. I view them as His creative natures, but He is still one God. God is one man religions say. We are two. Why?

We are the products of male and female. God is one. I take God as infinity at rest. All possibility in a state of rest means that He cannot change. This does not limit Him from a temporal realm. We need to view God the same way we view ourselves while looking at flatland. LINK. God is many dimensions beyond us, so we cannot conceive of this. God views the fourth dimension as we do a three dimensional object. Beginning to end and all points in-between. God sees through and around. A correction to my destiny is a change God makes. A change to my character, or the influence I have on others is my choice and change to the overall sculpture of the fourth dimension. I am clay in the potters hands. I also have a say in this clay.

Do I believe Jesus is the Messiah? Yes. I am a Baptist by group and I see their perspective on Christ as correct. Not that I see all of what is there as correct mind you. I am an individual by theology. My father's brother was the editor for the last four Baptist hymnals. Much of what I believe is not considered accepted doctrine by fundamentalists. I choose to listen to the Spirit guide me more than I listen to a locked theology. There are mysteries and undefined aspects of the Bible that a fundamentalist would say is already known. I say not so fast.

I love the Discourses of Rumi. He is Islamic. I adore Confucius. He wanted what was best for his people. Buddha found enlightenment and defined suffering and righteous living by virtue. I agree. Jesus is enlightenment and brought us a way to all find righteousness. This is truth. If you dare to look, all perspectives are on a circular stage pointing right at Christ as the final victory for truth. The rest is the struggle to get there.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

It takes less time to defend against your attack.

Asking questions about weird sounding replies.
I was not accusing you of deciet, just asking if you were keeping something secret that some readers would think was important. So if you are a Christian as you are indicating, then you have a funny (to me) way of explaining the godhead.
Here is a quote from Wikipedia,

Many Messianics affirm the Holy Trinity. . .

That, combined with your statement,

Jesus was as much the God of the Torah. . .

makes me feel uneasy, along with your not denying that you are "Messianic". The wikipedia quote continues,

the God the Father; God the Son; and the Holy Spirit — as three representations of the same divinity,

That is not Christian from any normal accepted religion. All conventions of the Trinity in the Christian religion recognize the distinct individuality of the three persons of the godhead. So, I will ask you straight out, yes or no, are you of a "Jewish Identity" sect?

edit on 5-7-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

A Hebrew Rabbi once said, "Do unto others, this is the whole of the law. Everything else is merely commentary." To anyone, I say reduce to simplest terms. Forget attaching yourself to a dogma or ritual if it does not suit you. The one thing I can say as a start is this:

See God. He is there or you would not be drawn to Him. Love others unconditionally as you would expect God loves you. See God as one of the others. This is faith. Hope is Christ. If you give faith a chance, hope comes. Love is the final part of the equation. Only love can come from faith and hope (Father and Son).

The Baptists say, "Say this prayer with me." Sounds too easy to be true. Try it. Just ask God to show you the way. Throw your pride out the window. It only holds you back. Hate cannot dispel hate. Only love dispels hate. There you are. The entire Bible and all of religion in one posting.

1 Corinthians 13

1 If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

Originally posted by Deffrette
i was raised by a catholic father and a church of england (prodistant) mother , two branches of christianity that are STILL at war with one another so as i grew older and possibly a little wiser and took notice of the events and came up with my own standpoint.
In my life i have had many occasions to doubt the existance of a daity but as yet i have seen or heard NO REAL PROOF that they either exist or not so i came up with a theory which is pretty simple ...the only faith you need is faith in yourself and the loved ones that surround you . i do not subscibe to the anthrophromic personification of A GOD, (big chap booming voice robes and beard) nor do i doubt the belief system of anybody who is either lucky enough to have true belief in their chosen diaty or absolutley no religous following.
Each person has a right to beleive in whatever they want too from pagen icons to the omnipresent THEIR choice as its MY CHOICE to be agnostic on this

HOWEVER...

most wars are based on faith , politics comes into it but history tells us faith is there someplace lurking in the shadows. My question is why are their soooo many different faiths all claiming to be the ONE TRUE FAITH with some of their followers beings fundamentalist in attitude surely either they are all correct or none of them are!

religon is infact a media tool to control the masses instill fear or hope when in truth the only thing that the organised religons seek is money to fund their own agenda ITS A CORPORATE BUSINESS and little or no attention is paid to the masses that fund this corporation .....JUST AN OPINION.

reply to post by SuperiorEd

I am not Jewish as far as I know.

I did not ask that. Any people of the type I was describing, that I have had internet conversations with, were Christian wanting to find a richer experience and thought they could get that from a mix of Jewish and Christian themes into a worship service. Usually what happens is a clash of personalities over questions of how much to be one way or the other. I'm thinking that you dabble in a lot of different experiences and just adopted certain ones that fit your ideas of how things are. Well, I can't say you are being deceptive because you do give hints about what you are thinking on various topics. Hopefully people will make use of those links and investigate before accepting the notion that the word Christian means one specific thing. There are people like yourself who like a Jesus figure as an example of virtue, and mix him in and maybe even call him God, why not. That is your religion and I am not against people having their own. I have said before that if there were as many religions as there are people It would not bother me. I just take issue with you on the matter of defending every aspect of any god or so-called god who happens to show up in this compilation of books and call it holy. Well that makes me not mainstream but hard to say for sure what mainstream is. It may be there are more believers who take a critical view of the Bible than there are people who automatically think every word of it came directly from God.
The bottom line is that you have a strong bias to defend those mythological gods because you think Jesus is every one of them. I think that is sad and there you go, that's my opinion, for what it's worth.

Originally posted by SuperiorEd

Okay. One more. God gave us free will but also equality. If we cannot choose evil, but are restricted, then we are not equal with God in a bond of love and choice. We create just like God. We have free will just like God. We have choice just like God. We must learn to love if we can hope to know evil and avoid it. Equal here does not mean ability or knowledge or wisdom. It means that we have equal access to His ability, knowledge and wisdom. We can join Him as long as we reciprocate His example. Love is the universal law, inexorable. Earth is the school and we can rebel against the teacher or learn what He knows. Graduate if you want or drop out. I choose to learn for the future good of my existence.

free will but also equality from bible god and some example of his "love"

Exodus 10:1-2
1And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him:
2And that thou mayest tell in the ears of thy son, and of thy son's son, what things I have wrought in Egypt, and my signs which I have done among them; that ye may know how that I am the LORD.

bible god influenced Pharaoh to make a point – no free will there

Genesis 16:7-9
7 Now the Angel of the LORD found her by a spring of water in the wilderness, by the spring on the way to Shur. 8 And He said, “Hagar, Sarai’s maid, where have you come from, and where are you going?”
She said, “I am fleeing from the presence of my mistress Sarai.”
9 The Angel of the LORD said to her, “Return to your mistress, and submit yourself under her hand.”

Hagar is commanded to go back to being a servant and bear children for her master though she does not want to - So no free will there

Genesis 19:23-25
23 By the time Lot reached Zoar, the sun had risen over the land. 24 Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the LORD out of the heavens. 25 Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, destroying all those living in the cities—and also the vegetation in the land.

Bible god blows up a 2 cities full of men women and children because some people living there are gay - no free will there

Genesis 38:9 And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother. 38:10 And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also.

Onan exercises his free will in regard to committing what he considers incest with his sister in law and bible god kills him - no free will there

There are many more
Such as:
God punishes children for the sins of their fathers
God endorses slavery
God orders the death of witches
God ordered the death of Israelites for worshipping a golden calf

reply to post by SuperiorEd


You wrote:

["God separates light from darkness creating both from one. God separates peace from evil to create both form one. What is the one thing? Chaos. In other words, "He the Lord does all these things for you!""]

It would be hard to repudiate, that dualism exists. But by which enigmatic pseudo-rational paths does that lead back to a 'god'?

It's a faith-based postulate, as the major part of your 'argumentation' is.

reply to post by SuperiorEd


I thouroughly enjoyed reading your OP.

I too, struggle with the conceptualisations that organised religion has forced down our throats with regards to old and new testament God.

I also believe that God by default, gives us all his love and only should we deserve it, do we reap the hate that might come from our actions.

The again, is it hatred for us as people and individuals, or hate of our ACTIONS? Like another said, no different to an annoyed parent.

I especially liked the excerpts from the bible.

Good on you mate! I look forward to reading more of your thoughts.

Originally posted by FeralMonkeyMagic
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

I thouroughly enjoyed reading your OP.

I too, struggle with the conceptualisations that organised religion has forced down our throats with regards to old and new testament God.

I also believe that God by default, gives us all his love and only should we deserve it, do we reap the hate that might come from our actions.

The again, is it hatred for us as people and individuals, or hate of our ACTIONS? Like another said, no different to an annoyed parent.

I especially liked the excerpts from the bible.

Good on you mate! I look forward to reading more of your thoughts.

There's the faith way, and then there's the objective/logical/rational way. Each of them having their justifications and uses in different contexts.

And then there's the orator's way; that of the preacher or missionary. In this way it's not quality, which counts, but quantity. The idea idea seems to be, that an orator hopes to be able to numb people into a zombie-like state of mind by endless talking and repetitions, where indoctrination can take place.

Relating to this thread I can give you an example. I can send post after post, in which I (possibly sugarcoated by some meaningless pseudo-argument) hammer home the 'message': "'God' is evil...'god' is evil....'god' is evil.

At best such is just preaching, and it may appeal as such for believers, who like to feel safe by having their faith 'confirmed' regularly. But it's certainly not a communication-dialogue, which is the intent of a forum.


So...to keep it up...." 'God' is not good, he's evil." (No hands and my brain turned off; it can't be easier).

Originally posted by Tephra
I suggest you don't study epicurean philosophy or you will certainly lose the faith you seem to cherish. The reality is, if there were a "god" as you believe, he is pure evil in our sense of the word.

edit on 3-7-2011 by Tephra because: (no reason given)

Sounds like another illogical thinker to me. The bottom line is, if God wiped out all evil and made everyone good by his own doing then that would Not be True Love. We would call that force. In other words, God would be forcing us to love him, and therefore we would be robots. If any god did that then what kind of god would that be. I guess free will is irrelevant right?

Now this thread calls for scripture so here is one that I think fits this topic:

"Go up to the land flowing with milk and honey; for I will not go up in your midst, least I consume you on the way, for you are a stiff-necked people. (4). And when the people heard this bad news, they mourned, and no one put on his ornaments. (5). For the LORD said to Moses, "Say to the children of Israel, 'Your are a stiff-necked people, I could come up into your midst in one moment and consume you. Now therefore, take off your ornaments, that I may know what to do to you;." Exodus 33:3-5. Sounds like God is showing mercy to the ignorant.

Originally posted by RealTruthSeeker


Now this thread calls for scripture so here is one that I think fits this topic:

i think this is more appropriate
Isaiah 5:20
Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Originally posted by racasan

Originally posted by RealTruthSeeker


Now this thread calls for scripture so here is one that I think fits this topic:

i think this is more appropriate
Isaiah 5:20
Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Let's not forget the next verse:

"Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes, And prudent in their own sight." Isaiah 5:21

Originally posted by RealTruthSeeker

Originally posted by racasan

Originally posted by RealTruthSeeker


Now this thread calls for scripture so here is one that I think fits this topic:

i think this is more appropriate
Isaiah 5:20
Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Let's not forget the next verse:

"Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes, And prudent in their own sight." Isaiah 5:21

hey your right i could have added that bit as well thanks

reply to post by RealTruthSeeker


You wrote:

["Sounds like another illogical thinker to me. The bottom line is, if God wiped out all evil and made everyone good by his own doing then that would Not be True Love........."]

You are possibly nor even AWARE of it, but all this is based on YOUR premises, which only can lead to YOUR 'answers'. It's basically a circle-argument: "It's true, because it's true".

Logic is NOT based on circle-arguments, so it's a strange argument to propose circle-argumentation (as you do) when at the same time condemning the lack of logic in other people.

Quote continued: [".......We would call that force. In other words, God would be forcing us to love him, and therefore we would be robots. If any god did that then what kind of god would that be."]

I'm sure most of us know this already: It's a test-situation with optional responses. But the situation is rigged, and the 'free will' is minimal. Sorry, but this kind of pseudo-rational reasoning only goes home with believers; not with those used to real logic.

Quote: [" "Go up to the land flowing with milk and honey; for I will not go up in your midst, least I consume you on the way, for you are a stiff-necked people. (4). And when the people heard this bad news, they mourned, and no one put on his ornaments. (5). For the LORD said to Moses, "Say to the children of Israel, 'Your are a stiff-necked people, I could come up into your midst in one moment and consume you. Now therefore, take off your ornaments, that I may know what to do to you;." Exodus 33:3-5. Sounds like God is showing mercy to the ignorant."9

OR it sounds as if the ignorant believe in a 'god' and his 'mercy'.

YOUR premises are not universal....get used to it.

Originally posted by bogomil
reply to post by RealTruthSeeker

 

You wrote:

I'm sure most of us know this already: It's a test-situation with optional responses. But the situation is rigged, and the 'free will' is minimal. Sorry, but this kind of pseudo-rational reasoning only goes home with believers; not with those used to real logic.

YOUR premises are not universal....get used to it.

How can it be rigged when you have the option to chose right or wrong? No one has forced you to do or believe anything, you do it of your own free will. Is it God's fault that you chose not to listen to what He says is right?

Originally posted by RealTruthSeeker

Originally posted by bogomil
reply to post by RealTruthSeeker

 

You wrote:

I'm sure most of us know this already: It's a test-situation with optional responses. But the situation is rigged, and the 'free will' is minimal. Sorry, but this kind of pseudo-rational reasoning only goes home with believers; not with those used to real logic.

YOUR premises are not universal....get used to it.

How can it be rigged when you have the option to chose right or wrong? No one has forced you to do or believe anything, you do it of your own free will. Is it God's fault that you chose not to listen to what He says is right?

I'll explain it slowly and carefully, hopefully getting past the impenetrable filters you put up around your own premises.

The 'options' of right or wrong you refer to are defined by and decided on in advance, by the intrinsic assumptions/postulates of your system. It's called a double-bind, and can only lead to the 'answers', which are expected from the beginning.

As examples of such orchestrated scenarios: "Have you stopped beating your wife?" or: "Are you sober TODAY?"

Take away .....your alleged 'god', his alleged characteristics, the alleged basic conditions of whatever the alleged original situation is said to be ..... as self-confirmed 'absolutes', and you'll find, that you are in sharp 'truth'-competition with quite a few other truth-seeking systems/methodologies, many of which are considerably more rational than yours.

If you want, it can eventually be boiled down to: "The bible is true", as the end-argument. The (usual) christian endstation of position, perspective, premises etc.

But the bible is not 'true', just because it says so about itself. So then the more enthusiastic and zealous christian missionaries invent (or highjack) their own, often bizarre, 'answer'-justifying system. Ranging from twisted science/logic to 'signs and wonders' and even rhetorical semantics or outright scholastic manipulation.

You didn't believe, that the basis of your opposition is build on similar principles? That 'we' (your opposition) haphazardly invent stuff as we go along. There's a strict basic systematic methodology at the bottom of what e.g. I (Bogomil) represent, and it can be demonstrated and verified step by step by objective procedure all the way.

It's such basics you are up against, and if you want to measure that against 'the bible is true, because it says so' feel free. I'll be around to meet you there.

Thank you, but God is the one to thank. I am just the one who notices. You would most likely enjoy the thread on the trinity. It is located Here. Also, the problem of evil. HERE

Originally posted by FeralMonkeyMagic
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

I thouroughly enjoyed reading your OP.

I too, struggle with the conceptualisations that organised religion has forced down our throats with regards to old and new testament God.

I also believe that God by default, gives us all his love and only should we deserve it, do we reap the hate that might come from our actions.

The again, is it hatred for us as people and individuals, or hate of our ACTIONS? Like another said, no different to an annoyed parent.

I especially liked the excerpts from the bible.

Good on you mate! I look forward to reading more of your thoughts.

Originally posted by gaia.chi.au
proof !!!! 1 + 1 + 2 !!!!!!!!! omg ! !!!!!

if god existed why didn't he just write the bible himself ?

He'd rather make some men in the desert write it for him. Wouldn't China have been a better place to disseminate the word? They could read and write and had a vast civilisation.

Originally posted by SuperiorEd

Thank you, but God is the one to thank. I am just the one who notices. You would most likely enjoy the thread on the trinity. It is located Here. Also, the problem of evil. HERE

Originally posted by FeralMonkeyMagic
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

I thouroughly enjoyed reading your OP.

I too, struggle with the conceptualisations that organised religion has forced down our throats with regards to old and new testament God.

I also believe that God by default, gives us all his love and only should we deserve it, do we reap the hate that might come from our actions.

The again, is it hatred for us as people and individuals, or hate of our ACTIONS? Like another said, no different to an annoyed parent.

I especially liked the excerpts from the bible.

Good on you mate! I look forward to reading more of your thoughts.

I'll scratch yours, and you'll scratch mine.

I took a look at these links, and the one on 'trinity' is your standard misapplication of science (which you have less understanding of, than you pretend).

And the other is a thread also authored by you, which practically is about the same as this thread, and not presenting anything more rational than this one does.

Is that a tactical maneuver, referring between different threads, so as to give it a sheen of 'authority'? You're saying almost the same in all your posts, so there's no appearant need for any extra 'explanations'.