God is GOOD and I will defend Him. A Challenge for Atheists

reply to post by dbates

The Amalekites were the first to attack Israel when they left Egypt and they're the ones that started the offensive. Even though God declared judgement would come to Amalek he left a period of over 200 years for that to change. During this period of time the Amalekites were allowed to move into and live with and among the Israelites. They could buy land and build houses, marry and have children with the people of Israel. It was only after a few centuries of continued cross-border attacks and aggression that they were ordered to finally wipe out those that did not move in with the Israelis. It isn't as if they were not given a chance.

The Amalekites were essentially a group of marauding bandit nomads who traveled around plundering and pillaging anyone they could. Those that chose to settle down in Israel were spared. Those that kept acting like Captain Jack Sparrow were finally wiped out. Wiping out every last man, woman, and child was an act of last resort when these groups wouldn't cooperate or stop terrorizing the Israelis.

But God demanded that the entire race be wiped out, and the children killed? What were the children guilty of?

This is very interesting; i've never heard such a defense of scripture. I'm blown away that you would use "Captain Jack Sparrow" in your answer too.

I'd very much enjoy a formal debate; as a moderator; do you know of any way to participate in formal debate; either on ATS Live or within the forums?

reply to post by ExistentialNightmare

Okay, I found something that might interest you. Read this guy's lengthy dissertation of the story. Just nosing around (Haven't read it all) he seems to work nearly every angle of the story.

Good question...shouldn't the butchering of the Amalekite children be considered war crimes?

reply to post by dbates


Took a look at the link supplied, but even for me, it was a bit on the heavy side (I'm used to that kind of stuff. I once read some 10.000+ pages of Alice Baily).

And in any case this is just a drop in the sea. OT is filled with completely unjustified atrocities, while 'god' on the other hand gives privileges out of proportion to his favourites.

reply to post by bogomil

Well you have to remember that his "favorites" were slaves for several hundred years, conquered by the Babylonians, and sacked pillaged and dispersed by the Romans. They were not above judgement. The instances that they seemed to gain divine favor was for the protection of the lineage that would eventually bring about the birth of Christ. Let's not forget that there are counter-forces that were seeking to disrupt this plan and to prevent this from happening. Read up on "The sons of God" mating with women which seemed to have happened before the Flood (and probably was the cause of the Flood) and also happened in the land of Canaan just before the Israelites arrived there. Again much too deep of a subject to attack it here specifically but that's there if you wish to read up on it.

reply to post by dbates


You wrote:

["The instances that they seemed to gain divine favor was for the protection of the lineage that would eventually bring about the birth of Christ."]

My bad. I didn't emphasize, that I was talking about the 'ruling' bloodline, when I talked about favourites. But some of the stuff connected with the favours these got, had absoloutely nothing to do with protection of what allegedly bring forth Jesus (a claim which btw is a faith-based postulate, that could justify quite a few things, being part of the elaborate circle-argument of original sin and the consequent need of salvation doctrine).

Quote: ["Let's not forget that there are counter-forces that were seeking to disrupt this plan and to prevent this from happening"]

And let's not forget that these alleged counter-forces are just as much a part of a self-reinforcing mythology as the 'good guys' are. It would be the work of a moment to construct some counter-forces into the mythology of the flying spaghetti monster (and, have I recently been informed, the great noodle master).

Quote: ["Read up on "The sons of God" mating with women which seemed to have happened before the Flood (and probably was the cause of the Flood) and also happened in the land of Canaan just before the Israelites arrived there."]

I am familiar with it, and also with the alternative interpretations coming from competing thoughts on the subject.

Quote: ["Again much too deep of a subject to attack it here specifically but that's there if you wish to read up on it."]

I agree, in its totality this subject would sidetrack the thread, though I can compress my speculative position on it to the 'prison or slave planet' model. We will both know, what that means.

God is a God of love. The creation is all good, and freedom is good. Therefore, anyone who wishes to accuse God for allowing evil is either a fool, ignorant, or worse.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


You lose as soon as you declare your belief as truth, and you lose as soon as you demand that people who do not believe like you are foolish.

I don't think Socrates or Epicurus were foolish people. I don't believe Dylan Evans or Bertrand Russel are foolish.

reply to post by ExistentialNightmare

All I said was that people who like to place the cause of evil with God are foolish, or I might add those who like to make of evil a neccessary cosmic balancing force to justify the good as good ie: by not being evil, are operating on a faulty premise. Evil is the fault of man born of ignorance or degenerate barbarianism, nothing more. At core, when recognized for what it is, evil is absurd, unjustified and unneccessary.

It's the devil's advocates I'm talking about, or those with an anti-religious axe to grind and who enjoy trying to make of God, a devil.

And then there are the fundamentalists who would say that evil is our natural state of being ie: original sin, that too is also foolish, since God is our true condition, and Godliness, as the key to joy and happiness of the eternal kind (transcendant) is never an imposition upon the mind or the heart of hearts where God lives.

reply to post by SuperiorEd


Oh, you almost had me ... Unfortunately, there is no challenge to be found here. It's just the ol' Christian circular belief system. Regurgitating ad nauseum ...

Originally posted by AllIsOne
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

Regurgitating ad nauseum ...

If your tired of hearing it then why are you posting? If your not up to the challenge then don't post.

I have not read this thread but simply have to post and say rubbish ... utter rubbish, God is not good.

I HATE god and Jesus and all Christians ... here's why ...

According to Christians the PARABLES are all about the good SEED which according to Christians means the followers of Jesus and the bad seed, being all those who don't believe in Jesus, who are therefore apparently the seed of Satan!

So according to Jesus ...

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

So this is the loving teachings of Jesus ... if you don't believe in me, men will gather you and throw you into a fire!!!

Does that sound anything even remotely like LOVE???

Christians will claim "No, I don't believe non-Christians should burn in hell forever just because they don't believe" but hang on a minute, their whole religion is based on burning those who don't believe in their God.

The whole theory of their religion is, that God will return and burn all the none believes ... are they only believers because their terrified they will be gathered and thrown into the FIRE themselves if they don't believe?

They're too scared not to believe? But worse than that, they pledge to do Gods work, so will they be throwing other men into the FIRE, just because they're a Buddhist or something? That's reason enough?

Now let's address heaven ...

Christians go on about how God is a spirit "only" and how heaven is ONLY for spirits.

If you have no body, you can't feel anything, we know there's no wife's in heaven so no sex, no love, no nothing, no sun on your face, no moon nothing.

Matthew 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage ..

It seems to me they've been sold a bag of NOTHING and they're getting excited about NOTHING.

If you can't feel or love or anything ... your DEAD ... so have they been tricked you into getting excited about being DEAD?

I mean why would anyone even want to go?

Then we have this issue of God being a spirit ... funny because his physical body is described in the bible ...

Revelation 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
Revelation 1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
Revelation 1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
Revelation 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

Notice that last bit ... it's pure paganism. God is like the SUN, that is exactly what pagans believe, that God is all powerful and gives life just LIKE the SUN.

But lets carry on because I am sure Christians will come up with some twisted reason for why God is spoken of above as having a body ...

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Revelation 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Revelation 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Revelation 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Revelation 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

Well lookie lookie if God is a spirit, how can he come flying down on a horse and start killing people and have his venture dripping in their blood?

I mean really ... the amount of double think Christians must have going on in their heads to get this stuff to work for them must be incredible!!!

Then lets look at the miracles Jesus apparently preformed ... WHY?

If the whole point is to become a spirit and float around in a world of nothingness then why even bother to heal the sick or raise the dead ... I mean, isn't that counterproductive?

reply to post by AprilSky

and the bad seed, being all those who don't believe in Jesus, who are therefore apparently the seed of Satan!

The implication of the parable is that those who believe that there is a kingdom come (that they learned about from Jesus, and believed in) are growing spiritually in order to become better, so they can enter this looked for kingdom. In contrast, the deceiver, Satan and the Devil, convinces some people that there is no kingdom come, and it is Jesus who is to not be believed. Seeing (in this deception) that there is nothing in the future to live for, they go about having whatever enjoyment there is of the here and now, and do not worry about what injury their fun may cause to others. So it is the bad deeds towards others, that stems from not hoping for better things, that Jesus is speaking about.

As it stands, it does not matter what an atheist or anyone says about the biblical god, because we don't know his mind or his thoughts. Therefore, in the mind of a christian, he can always be doing things for the good no matter what it is said that he has done.

What I don't get is that if this god kills lots of people, christian will say "He knew they wouldn't accept him anyways." So, why does he let anyone live right now who does not and will not accept him? Especially those who will cause harm to others if allowed to live? Why kill one person knowing they would never accept him but let others live?

reply to post by Hydroman
Every one of us are alive today for the exact same reason.
I believe that reason is the life and death and resurrection of Jesus.
God would have foreseen that event and allowed us, as a species, to continue on untill that day arrived.
The problem is that this marked the beginning of the Apocalyptic era, where things begin to change rather quickly. These are the end times, marked by those events, ushering in a mass spread of the knowledge of God through the revelation of Christ. Those who hear and obey will prepare themselves for the close of the Apocalyptic era by working to be righteous and to be able to stand judgement. That time that was allowed for people to respond, will end and we will be required to show fruits, for good, or for evil.
So we were not just abandoned when we did not show ourselves to be obedient. Now there is a spirit that will be inside us, to be the voice to listen to and to obey. The voice that says, don't do that evil thing and harm your brother or your neighbor. We need to incorporate that with our faulty conscience to where we are basically obeying a higher self but one that has been given to us and not of our own making. The reptilian mind says do what is for your survival without regard for what that will mean for others survival. We need to become again, fully human where we have compassion.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
The reptilian mind says do what is for your survival without regard for what that will mean for others survival.

Reptilian mind? Where did that come from?

Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by jmdewey60
The reptilian mind says do what is for your survival without regard for what that will mean for others survival.

Reptilian mind? Where did that come from?

What do you mean, the concept of the reptilian mind? Are you unfamiliar with that?
I was refering to what would more properly be called the reptilian brain.

The reptilian brain is the most ancient of the brains. It has two hemispheres, just like the neocortex, and it may be that they relate functionally to the ...consists of the upper part of the spinal cord and the basal ganglia, the diencephalon, and parts of the midbrain--- all of which sits atop the spinal column like a knob in the middle of our heads.

I've been reading along and the comment below was powerful. Thank you for the brilliant reply. Very insightful and full of objective reason. So many of you are replying out of pure bias against God. Take a close look at why some of you are against a good God. Bias stands against. Good stand for. Bias looks down. Good looks across. Bias pushes. Good pulls along. It is the difference between Good and anything that is not Good; anything that does not honor, protect and defend. Like I said, steal, kill and destroy is not God. If someone dies at the prompting of God, they make the choice ahead of God for their fate based on His laws. We expect this to be the case when someone steals, kills or destroys our own property or loved ones. We want justice.

Justice is a topic that has not been properly covered in this thread. God demands justice. Anything you throw against God is denying that He is just. By our narrow understanding, we do not have the frame of reference of perspective to know. What you actually need is frames of reference and all perspectives. God has this. You do not. Again, it is pride. Men are quick to judge God form one frame of reference and a dim perspective. Arrogance aplenty.

If your own actions on this thread do not honor, defend and protect good, then you are not up to God's example.

This thread has established God as Good. If we spent the next 10 years working chapter by chapter through the Bible, we would find that God provides the reasons He acts in every circumstance and the are always just decisions to protect those who love others. Remember that God is one of the others. His reasons will always be to honor, defend and protect the highest good that can be done. He expects the same from us.

Originally posted by dbates

Originally posted by ExistentialNightmare
But if doctrine ("THE WORD OF GOD") states that homosexuality is evil, does that make homosexuality evil?

First you have to answer the question "what is evil?". If by evil you mean thoughts of malice and hateful thinking a villain would have. If you mean that this is evil as in someone making calculated thoughts about how to do wrong. If you mean that as evil then I would say no, homosexuality is not "evil".

I think evil is the wrong word to use. Homosexuality is a sin which means something done outside of God's will or desired path of action. If God made lawnmowers and you stuck your hand in the running blade it wouldn't be evil but it would certainly not be the use that God planned for the lawnmower. With that thought go back and look at the very first commandment God gave Adam and Eve. No, it wasn't not to eat the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. The first commandment was this.

God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it.
Genesis 1:28

This is one of the reasons the Catholic church does not approve of contraception of any kind. And of course I fully expect the rebuttal about how some people never get married and some married people don't have kids. Are those people sinning as well? But what about those people that have physical defects that keep them from reproducing? Is being ugly a physical defect and can we allow for that being a valid reason to not have a mate? Now we're getting into some really deep issues that personally I don't think this thread needs to or would support diving into. So, to be brief there is an established pattern or design that God has made. Men + women = new people. This is not just a good idea, it's a natural law that can't be changed. God sees homosexuality and says "Dude! You're doing it wrong!" which in our terms we call sin.

Back to the lawnmower analogy. Those things are made to cut grass but you could do many other things with them if you choose. You could turn them on their side and make it into a fan but that's not safe. Hey you could even hold it up and trim tree branches with it if you were strong enough but that's risky behavior and bad things could happen if you use the equipment in a manner other than what it was designed for. There are negative repercussions for not following the directions.

edit on 6-7-2011 by dbates because: (no reason given)

Read your reply below before you read this.

If God told you to use a seat belt one day, would you give Him the pride you used in the response below? If you later had an accident, would you blame Him for not telling you about the accident, or would you blame yourself for not following His direction?

This gets at the heart of the matter. You say God should have told you in concrete terms, so this somehow makes Him evil. God says have faith and trust Him. God said what needed to be said. What happens between is a test of your faith in Him.

Now replay this again, except you do not have a relationship with God at all. You push Him away before He can ever begin to show you how to live life with meaning. You drive yourself down the road on your own pride and wisdom.

Originally posted by bogomil

Originally posted by RealTruthSeeker

Originally posted by bogomil

Are you suggesting some kind of censorship on how, who and why for participation?

No, but the op did ask that you provide examples from the bible.

edit on 6-7-2011 by RealTruthSeeker because: (no reason given)

Yes, that point has already been chewed over. The OP author is in no position of putting up such conditions. I could exclusively refer to a car-repairing manual, if it had any bearing on the topic.

You mistake the subject of God with the object delivering the subject. The 'fan club' of God delivers a subject that judges you. The object delivering this does not say a word about you or anyone else. If your heart is telling you something from the subject, that is an issue with you and not the person posting about the goodness of God.

This can't be missed as you speak against those with faith. We speak for God. This is a vast difference in delivery methods if you look closely.

Originally posted by Sator
Oh, let's pretend we can discuss and gain something from threads like these, shall we?

Ok... My problem is not with god at all, it's his "fan club" that seems to be a little misguided (at least).


See, if I tell anyone that every day I sit down and "talk to an invisible elf, that lives in Middle-Earth, and is of a higher wisdom then I, and I ask him for advices on how to live my life, and he helps me" I'd probably be considered a mental patient, delusional at least.

But if I change the words "elf" for "god" and "Middle-Earth" for "Heaven", then I shall not be considered a mental patient, but a respectable religious person.

Why?

Neither "the elf" or "god" are going to disrespect me, try to make me feel bad in any way... but the people... well, I can't say the same about them.


Allah, God, Yeshua, Bhagwan, Vishnu, Yahweh, Elohim, Mother Earth... never ever, EVER, have been seen to actually harm anyone (nor doing anything GOOD, for the matter)... but their fans.... well. I think I'll stop here, I hope I got my message across.


Peace

edit on 6-7-2011 by Sator because: spelling

Allow me to take the liberty to answer your question with your own words. I'll replace God with love and leave the rest the same.

"What I don't get is that if this (love) kills lots of people, christian will say "(Love) knew they wouldn't accept (good) anyways." So, why does (Love) let anyone live right now who does not and will not accept Love? Especially those who will cause harm to others if allowed to live? Why kill one person knowing they would never accept Love but let others live?"

Should God defend those who refuse to be loving and kill those who do no harm? Should God take out only the women who weigh more than 145 lbs. and spare the skinny women with nice faces? God does not have bias. He sees everyone as equal in love. If a person chooses to harm others, God takes this as a aggression to His family. Would you do any less?

This is where God goes beyond Good. It's not enough that He loves His friends. Anyone can do that. God also loves His enemies, as He instructs us to do. He is long suffering. He does not snap an unfruitful tree in half. He tends it and works the ground around it hoping for fruit in the next season.

Luke 13

6 Then he told this parable: “A man had a fig tree growing in his vineyard, and he went to look for fruit on it but did not find any. 7 So he said to the man who took care of the vineyard, ‘For three years now I’ve been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven’t found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil?’

8 “‘Sir,’ the man replied, ‘leave it alone for one more year, and I’ll dig around it and fertilize it. 9 If it bears fruit next year, fine! If not, then cut it down.’”

Originally posted by Hydroman
As it stands, it does not matter what an atheist or anyone says about the biblical god, because we don't know his mind or his thoughts. Therefore, in the mind of a christian, he can always be doing things for the good no matter what it is said that he has done.

What I don't get is that if this god kills lots of people, christian will say "He knew they wouldn't accept him anyways." So, why does he let anyone live right now who does not and will not accept him? Especially those who will cause harm to others if allowed to live? Why kill one person knowing they would never accept him but let others live?

edit on 6-7-2011 by Hydroman because: (no reason given)