I'm Becoming a Skeptic. This Stuff Borders on Cult..

reply to post by TechNoir

I'm sure some people might be willingly to rationalize the existence of highly complex crop circles by saying "Oh, it's just the U.S. government using some advanced technology" but they would have no proof of that, it would only be an assumption based on zero evidence.

No one in their right mind would say that. What they would say is that sometimes the mysterious forces that create crop circles work out complicated designs and secret messages before they down a pint and go out and do this:

reply to post by TheLogicalist


Mathematically if there are as many stars and potential solar systems out there as there are grains of sand on all of the beaches on Earth then there is the possibility that we aren't the only living human like creatures in existence.

Or that the Grays are the only species of extraterrestrials...where our own Bible states that we were created in the image of God himself.

Was God a Human looking extraterrestrial himself ?


Werner Von Braun had said that the Nazis advanced far ahead of the rest of the world with their space program due to influence from those from another planet as in extraterrestrials.

Read Jan Van Helsing's Book: Secret Societies where he describes the connection and describes....

Apparently a UFO crashed in the Black Forest of Germany, in 1936 which lead to their understanding of extraterrestrial technology.

Whether you "BELIEVE" this or not...

Let's Face it, the Germans did have working and operational swept wing Jet aircraft as well as ICBM's and cruise missiles in WWII which were considerably way ahead of their time.

Where did they learn such advanced technology ?

The success of the USA own space program was entirely due to Werner Von Braun and the other German rocket scientists brought to the US via operation paperclip.

So there might some truth to this hypothesis.

Deny Ignorance

Read a little about the NAZI Flying Saucer program....






en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by TheLogicalist
I know Skeptics are generally looked down upon on this site.
I'm prepared to be called
troll
sheep
etc..
Personally I don't care.


Basically this is my opinion. Maybe its a long rant.
In my previous topics posters will say Ufology is more a religion then science. I seriously starting to believe that.
This subject is bordering on a cult. More then anything.

edit on 21-6-2011 by TheLogicalist because: (no reason given)

edit on 21-6-2011 by TheLogicalist because: (no reason given)

(note: not trying to rain on anyone`s parade, but we need critical thought for both sides of whatever we are looking at)

TheLogicalist, thank you for this thread, it takes a good hard, and critical view at the Ufology topic.
Personally, I am a big hope-er/believer of extra-terrestrial beings, or inter-dimensional beings or whatever people are calling em these days.

I think such a thing, intelligent life other than our own, MUST exist in a plane of existence so large. How can we think we know it all?

But you have a serious point, which I have also come to truly accept, which is, there is no proof the 100% confirms their existence, or at least their existence ever having traveled to earth. Yes, we have some quasi-proof, things like sightings, experience reports or whatever, but surely we ALL KNOW how unreliable our fellow man can be. We also have things like the Nazca lines, or Droppa stones (I'm not saying they are definitively alien, just that it is a hypothetical proof that many claim.

We have to remember though, that as likely as life in other regions of our galaxy/universe/multiverse are to exist, they may or may not be intelligent. They may or may not have arms, hands, legs or feet (which would make it mighty difficult to build any sort of tool let lone a spaceship capable of interstellar travel. They may or may not be capable of various mind powers (such a thing could help if they had no hands to build, but again, we can't say this is a fact).

All we can know for sure, is that what we can perceive as the plane of reality and existence around us, is HUGE.
We should be able to ascertain that because of the grand nature of our habitat, probability means SOMETHING ALIVE probably exists somewhere, but what we CANNOT know, is if they are intelligent (to any degree) or have they the ability to produce tools.

At least until they come knockin' on our doors, and that is one day I do wish I am around to see.

reply to post by nh_ee

Mathematically if there are as many stars and potential solar systems out there as there are grains of sand on all of the beaches on Earth then there is the possibility that we aren't the only living human like creatures in existence.

To think otherwise would only be woefully ignorant.

Agreed... but what does that have to do with people seeing things in the sky they can't immediately identify?

Werner Von Braun had said that the Nazis advanced far ahead of the rest of the world with their space program due to influence from those from another planet as in extraterrestrials.

Where does he say that? I read his autobiography as a kid and I don't remember him saying that. I do remember him saying that he was inspired by the work of Hermann Oberth.

Read Jan Van Helsing's Book: Secret Societies where he describes the connection and describes....

Is that the Professor Van Helsing?!?!

Let's Face it, the Germans did have ICBM's and cruise missiles in WWII which were considerably way ahead of their time.

No, by definition they were a product of their time. Basically, they filled shells with gasoline and fired them in the general direction of Britain. They lacked any appreciable guidance system and caused very little real damage. They were chiefly weapons of psychological terror.

Where did they learn such advanced technology ?

By painstakingly building on the work of this man:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/1480b2a6ab80.jpg[/atsimg]
Hermann Oberth

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/459a4ecafc25.jpg[/atsimg]
Oberth with his buddies (including a young Werner Von Braun)

The success of the USA own space program was entirely due to Werner Von Braun and the other German rocket scientists brought to the US via operation paperclip.

Not entirely.

So there might some truth to this hypothesis.

Why? Are you implying that human beings are too stupid and un-resourceful to figure out how to build a rocket? The Chinese were flying rockets centuries ago. It took Germans to fully weaponize them, I guess.

Deny Ignorance

At every opportunity!

Originally posted by nh_ee
Deny Ignorance

Read a little about the NAZI Flying Saucer program....






en.wikipedia.org...

I think this is exactly what the OP is talking about. Science fiction, as the wikipedia page states. No basis in fact, no sources to verify a single claim. Sound fishy to you?

Deny Ignorance.

reply to post by nh_ee


Looking closely at the current Wikipedia content on Nazi UFOs, and the many recent changes that have been made, it looks like it is being maintained by a bunch of people who are happy to rely on rubbish sources to make their dreams of Nazi technical brilliance appear true.

For something more sane, intelligent and interesting, please try

magonia.haaan.com...

reply to post by DJW001


Can't remember the specific UFO researcher who said it. However, one does claim that whilst in some library undertaking research into some sighting in the late 60s, early 70s that. They met and spoke with Werhner Von Braun and that he made some remark about receiving help from *them out there* with the rocket programme. Now of course, he might well have been making a joke and the guy fell for it, or maybe he wasn't and he was deadly serious bout the remark.

reply to post by fleabit


I appreciate your passion for this subject. What's the % that's said to represent the number of reports that are truly unexplainable? It's really small isn't it?

No doubt, there have been some strange occurrences that have taken place with all sorts of witnesses that can't readily be explained.

UFO's? Yes. MFO's? Yes.

Aliens? Not so fast... The evidence for that.. the real legitimate evidence, is lacking in that arena.

Originally posted by TheLogicalist


Basically this is my opinion. Maybe its a long rant.
In my previous topics posters will say Ufology is more a religion then science. I seriously starting to believe that.
This subject is bordering on a cult. More then anything.

Any subject can be turned into a cult if it's taken to fanatical extremes, religion, politics, ponzi schemes, singers, mma athletes etc.. etc.. imo your point is moot and worthless, it doesn't change or erase the evidence that exists out there that can't be dismissed out of hand JAL 1928, Belgium sightings. You'd have to be a fool, that never bothered to do any real research or even cared about this subject to begin with to come to such a conclusion and dismiss every piece of legit evidence based on a couple of crazy people who flood the subject with disinfo.

If you are unable to handle the noise/signal ratio without being overwhelmed, it is you that is at fault. The rest of us can sift through information easily without being baited into irrational skepticism or unmitigated belief.

reply to post by ferdimeow



I do not reply to topics on this site very much. Actually, this may be only the 2nd time I have ever replied to anything on this site.

My point is.... You will not believe until you have had your own personal experience. Most of the people that have had their own UFO and or ET experience do not even talk about it openly. I have had my own personal experience.

The thing is, it is either ET, demons or ghosts. Pick one. Also, could be some form of life that we have not discovered that can fly through the sky and change shapes. Could be a fish of sorts. Our air we breathe is part water. But, the fact is, there is definitely something else out here in our earth's atmosphere that is not airplanes, blimps or helicopters. Most of the researchers that are not retired do not even publish their evidence, because of ridicule that they will definitely receive from their co-workers once they find out.

Our human society is afraid to advance to the next stage. We are so caught up in the every day bull that we do not open our eyes to the possibility of enlightenment.

Don't stick your head in the sand, keep an open mind. I have personally witnessed a bright sphere of light pass through a window and left through the back door of a house during an investigation. I used to be a MUFON investigator.

Good luck on your decision.

Originally posted by carl6405
I do not reply to topics on this site very much. Actually, this may be only the 2nd time I have ever replied to anything on this site.

Welcome, I think I speak for everyone when I say we look forward to your future participation.

Originally posted by carl6405
My point is.... You will not believe until you have had your own personal experience. Most of the people that have had their own UFO and or ET experience do not even talk about it openly. I have had my own personal experience.

I can understand why that would be.

Originally posted by carl6405
The thing is, it is either ET, demons or ghosts. Pick one. Also, could be some form of life that we have not discovered that can fly through the sky and change shapes.

Why does it have to be one of those? Is it possible that ET is actually just a result of '___' being released by the brain (like most mystical experiences throughout the ages)?

Originally posted by carl6405
Could be a fish of sorts. Our air we breathe is part water. But, the fact is, there is definitely something else out here in our earth's atmosphere that is not airplanes, blimps or helicopters. Most of the researchers that are not retired do not even publish their evidence, because of ridicule that they will definitely receive from their co-workers once they find out.

Or maybe there is no evidence to publish?

Originally posted by carl6405
Our human society is afraid to advance to the next stage. We are so caught up in the every day bull that we do not open our eyes to the possibility of enlightenment.

Have you considered that there might not be anything to be enlightened about? You have to keep your mind open to these possibilities.

Originally posted by carl6405
Don't stick your head in the sand, keep an open mind. I have personally witnessed a bright sphere of light pass through a window and left through the back door of a house during an investigation. I used to be a MUFON investigator.

That is super neat, that ball lightning (or even sleep deprivation) can do crazy things.

Makes me laugh these kind of threads!

"I'm very well read on the subject of UFO's", "I've followed it for the last 3 or 4 years".

Really?.....very well read!

Now i can say that there is plenty of evidence that UFO's are not from this world, and the skeptics can say it's all bs and anyone who believes it is crazy. But i think we can all agree on something, and say to you, what a waste!

Long time lurker here, I had to register to post this.

I used to believe in UFOs. Long time ago I used to read basically every book and watch every documentary (no Internet back then) on the subject and in my mind aliens and UFOs were a fact, until several things came to my mind:

-I have a lot friends who are amateur (some now professional) astronomists and they have never seen any alien spacecraft

-why the aliens only seem to originate from stars that are visible to Earth

-why there isn't verifiable evidence of aliens, not even one photo or a single object

-I've also been very interested in aircraft pretty much whole my life so I can recognize a lot of things that fly in our sky and nowadays Youtube is full of "UFO" videos which are clearly either civilian or military aircraft, all the usual lights on and strobes blinking

-what if the governments say that there isn't any proof that UFOs exist is actually the truth and not a coverup

Later I started studying healthcare and during my studies (and work) I've encountered mentally unstable people who believe in a lot of things, including aliens, that are very popular also here in ATS forums. I've met people who are adamant in their belief that right now there is a demon or an alien standing in the corner and are not convinced if I cannot see or touch the being.

Sorry about the typos and crappy English and thanks to all for a great forum!

I appreciate your passion for this subject. What's the % that's said to represent the number of reports that are truly unexplainable? It's really small isn't it?

No doubt, there have been some strange occurrences that have taken place with all sorts of witnesses that can't readily be explained.

UFO's? Yes. MFO's? Yes.

Aliens? Not so fast... The evidence for that.. the real legitimate evidence, is lacking in that arena.

Obviously the evidence was lacking - if there was actual evidence of aliens.. it wouldn't even be a topic any longer. They would exist, and everyone would know it.

And yes, the % of truly unexplainable sightings is pretty small... in comparison to the # of reported sightings. But ufo sightings -are- rare. I don't think the % of sightings has changed much over the years.. just the # of reported sightings that are explainable.

It only takes one sighting to be true, for it to be said.. "aliens exist and are visting us." While we've yet to have that elusive interview with an alien to prove beyond a doubt they are here, there are plenty of cases with unexplainable evidence, which points to craft well beyond our abilities to create. There are some that will try to convince you that we have amazing craft.. even back in the 50s and before, that can perform maneuvars we STILL can't replicate. It's difficult to argue against the old fallback excuse when no other explanation serves: "Oh.. it's got to be a black project." Kind of hard to disprove that, even if it's not true.

For example: Tehran in 1976 - I've had people try to convince me that why sure.. enemies would fly super advanced cutting edge aircraft over enemy terrority, and yes.. it could change multiple colors, jam / turn off all equipment, split into multiple craft, and outfly the jets both speedwise and with maneuvability.

If you want to believe that sort of thing, that's your perogative. I don't buy it. I also don't buy we have any sort of propulsion system that can hold aloft a massive craft, make no sound, and accelerate away at great speed. If we had these technologies.. we'd use them to gain air superiority in any war, and it would see practical use. We wouldn't hide the technology for ages, and have it serve no purpose at all.

People will believe in whatever makes them comfortable though. Including believing that at the end of the day, it's easier to just explain away sightings with the old standby.. "Oh.. well, nothing else fits.. so we'll call this a top secret aircraft." It's a cop out.

reply to post by fleabit


Its not a cop out.

I believe aliens should be the last thing that crosses someones mind..

How many times have people taken pictures of random lights at night, claimed it was the federation of lights only for it to be just a plane?
.
People should go through a checklist in their minds before jumping to conclusion.

We do not know what the government is doing.

But that goes back to the argument "PEOPLE WANT TO BELIEVE".

Its not a cop out.

I believe aliens should be the last thing that crosses someones mind..

How many times have people taken pictures of random lights at night, claimed it was the federation of lights only for it to be just a plane?
.
People should go through a checklist in their minds before jumping to conclusion.

We do not know what the government is doing.

But that goes back to the argument "PEOPLE WANT TO BELIEVE".

I'm not talking about the fuzzy light claims, taken by someone holding the camera like they are a jack russel terrier on crack. I'm talking about reputable cases.

And in most cases, aliens are not the last thing on a debunkers mind - it's not even an option, no matter what evidence is presented. Failing all other explanations, it's ALWAYS a "top secret" craft.. apparently flown over populated cities.. or over foreign countries, because it makes sense to do this. Even if they exhibit technology that should be light years above anything we've seen.. it's obviously government. It CAN'T be aliens .. right?

It's not very logical at all, when you completely eliminate one possibility, because your mind isn't willing to accept it.

It is most likely you will remain a skeptic until you have an experience from which there's no turning back - and then start your own religious cult!

But seriously, skeptics are great because they do whittle the BS down and help clear the playing field. Long may they be skeptical! But I do hope that each one of them one day has their own private experience with an angel who turns out to be an alien who turns out to be a ball of pure light with a total understanding of multimetaphysics too!

Peace.