You people do know the Bible says we don't go to heaven, or the lake of fire when we die, right?

reply to post by JeshurunAndronicus

. . .one must have faith and works. . .

People , it seems, think a good deed, when they hear the word, works. It is who you are as a person, that whatever works are, come from, that counts. There is also actual things you can do in specific cases that are things that need to be done and that falls under duties.
So a person can not say, I have done this and this, so I deserve to go to heaven. You just have to think practically such as what would you do if you were in charge at the gates of heaven. I am sure Satan did a lot of good things at some time but it is what is going on in his mind and what he is capable of doing. A lot of holy seeming people, if pushed, will go off in a hellish sort of way. So doing a good work means nothing. God knows the hearts of men and Jesus knows all about it too and from another perspective, having been a man like us and he says your heart needs to change. Faith, as I see it, is a form of ownership. If you believe in me you will not know death. What? You hang onto your life because you own it, but only by faith.

reply to post by ExistentialNightmare

Poetic.....the sun does come up every day.

Sorry, to me that means something, and I forget that most people would not know what that means. It means, what worked then was ok for then, but in the future we need to know a lot more than we do today and clinging to the old belief system is not going to get us through. That does not mean to forget everything you ever knew but to understand it as a historical document. The Spirit of God is a living thing and does wonders and we know the true word of God is His Spirit.

reply to post by jmdewey60

Sorry, to me that means something

And i don't want to take that away from you. But you use these metaphors and poems often as a response to criticisms rather than rebut the argument being made.

Reply to post directly above this one.
I didn't see an argument. You were asking questions like, does God answer prayers like a Santa wish list.
I am saying God answers questions through His Spirit. If that seems metaphorical, sorry but there is no more concrete a way to say it. God does not speak to people like the TV set and that may be the problem, that people have forgotten how to listen and to think for themselves. They want to have something just poured onto them, to be absorbed. Well that is not going to happen the way a lot of people would like it to.
I do not have any illusions of being ever popular. I do not say the things people want to hear. I accept that, so I don't try to be popular and just say what I believe is true and what I understand, through a lot of struggle I have done looking for what is true. I was taught to be that way from the earliest part of my life. I was told that the world is going into the depths of delusion and we have to fight constantly to avoid being taken in by it. The world is being judged and that is why this is happening. Those who would be bad, to follow a false god, will be because the world can not go on any longer. God puts that into the world to force the ripening of the grapes of wrath

reply to post by ExistentialNightmare
This is not on topic and really out of place but it is what I am thinking. You were telling the other poster that they were at least consistent. You, I find so much not that. I am to the point that I imagine two people sharing the password or maybe the same computer and posting in shifts. At one time you seem to be one personality, and at another time, a different person, but split kind of evenly. Is that what is going on? A dual identity. Some people will have two identities to cause mischief on the forum but this would be a new one to me. Two people posting under the same identity. That would explain a lot about your posts and why you are so difficult to figure out. Do you get paid half as much for your work? I had a guy ask me something like that really seriously where I used to live which was almost right on the Mexican border. I worked at a place that probably had a hundred and fifty illegals working there and they thought I was an undercover fed because I seemed too smart for my job description.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Nah, I see this man as being honest; he seems understanding of our position and that neither of our arguments (theism vs atheism) will influence either to change one's view of thinking. This is at least what I've gotten.

reply to post by jmdewey60

I am saying God answers questions through His Spirit.

God does not speak to people like the TV set

Could you explain how a non-believer like me can "tune in"? If it requires blind faith; count me out.

That people have forgotten how to listen and to think for themselves.

"Forgotten"? What about eskimoes or tribes that don't believe in a deity; for people that are not monotheists? Have they forgotten? Or are they just unaware? Perhpas they believe in multiple Gods, or have never questioned their existence before?

I'm sorry but i don't buy your "forgotten" ability theory. But you'll claim my ignorance, right? I'm just not feeling the "Holy Spirit" that you are talking about; I focus hard; and nothing? What am i doing wrong?

They want to have something just poured onto them, to be absorbed. Well that is not going to happen the way a lot of people would like it to.

Well I certainly don't. But if someone claims something; i want a reason other than faith to believe.

I do not have any illusions of being ever popular. I do not say the things people want to hear. I accept that, so I don't try to be popular and just say what I believe is true and what I understand, through a lot of struggle I have done looking for what is true.

This goes without mentioning; being popular or saying what people want to hear has nothing to do with discussion here; or religious or philosophical debate.

Those who would be bad, to follow a false god, will be because the world can not go on any longer.

Define a false God; is it Yahweh? is it Zeus? is it Neptune? Is it Wotan? Is it Ra? is it Allah?

Everyone's got a different idea of God or Gods; who's right?

God puts that into the world to force the ripening of the grapes of wrath

Not sure what this last sentence means....

God tests people with false Gods and prophets like Muhammed and Allah? - Again who is right?

Someone has to be wrong. You can't compare contrasting beliefs and say "they all worship the same God". Because God may not exist; or there may be multiple Gods (Polytheism)

And btw; characteristics of Jesus have been plagiarised from matyrs and demi-gods gone by. Many martyrs have been born of a virgin; and divenly sent to "heal the world", and more often than not are "ressurected":-

Buddha
Krishna
Odysseus
Romulus
Dionysus
Heracles
Glycon
Attis of Phrygia

EXAMPLE:-

Attis of Phrygia:-

Attis was born on December 25 of the Virgin Nana. He was considered the savior who was slain for the salvation of mankind. His body as bread was eaten by his worshippers. He was both the Divine Son and the Father. On “Black Friday,” he was crucified on a tree, from which his holy blood ran down to redeem the earth. He descended into the underworld. After three days, Attis was resurrected.

Sounds similar, doesn't it?

reply to post by ExistentialNightmare

. . .being popular or saying what people want to hear has nothing to do with discussion here; or religious or philosophical debate.

I was not aware of a debate. I am not debating. Are you?
If so, what is your position? God is not fair because not everyone is capable of belief?
I am not defending a position, myself, or God.
You may have such questions, yourself, but I have never, so I may not be the best person to answer your questions.
You may need to find someone who was a non-believer, and had somehow become one. Ask him or her how he or she did it. I have no idea. I'm just saying what I believe and you find no use in it, then move on to someone who can understand. I speak in a language familiar to other believers and someone not brought up as religious may not ever be able to understand.
Anyway, when I say false gods I mean an idol, inside a person's mind and heart, which they made themselves. They do not want to seek the god outside and are more comfortable with the one they have. It is the desires that are more important than doing the right thing. Lying, stealing and murder, all things allowable when they only please themselves. Some people may need another more external idol to validate their thoughts and there are lots of preachers to go to to bless then on their path. But the path is to ruin and death. Only the real God can give life.

reply to post by jmdewey60

I was not aware of a debate. I am not debating. Are you?

No - I'm responding to the points you make with my point of view; and i didn't mention we were having a debate; debates are formal. Discussions are open and relaxed.

If so, what is your position? God is not fair because not everyone is capable of belief?

No.

You may have such questions, yourself, but I have never, so I may not be the best person to answer your questions.

No problem; i'm explaining why i have questions; and why other people might.

I'm just saying what I believe and you find no use in it, then move on to someone who can understand.

I'm entitled to my opinion too. I'm entitled to ask questions and have criticisms of your words. As you are with mine.

speak in a language familiar to other believers and someone not brought up as religious may not ever be able to understand.

I was braught up in Catholic school; i understand how people preach faith; i understand why some people enjoy faith; or enjoy reading a bible when at the core is a loving deity; that you can find salvation in; in times of need, or hurt. I'm not saying you do; but i understand many reasons for believing.

Anyway, when I say false gods I mean an idol, inside a persons mind and heart, which they made themselves.

Name an example.

They do not want to seek the god outside and are more comfortable with the one they have.

This is an argument i have heard before: "Non-believers are their own Gods" -; it doesn't mean anything if you don't believe in God, but to you, that statement means something.

You assume that non-believers are self-serving because of lack of belief; and i've explained that this is nonsense; and offensive. This is a common prejudice held amongst many believers.

. Lying, stealing and murder, all things allowable when they only please themselves.

So are you saying I need a God so that i don't lie, steal and murder?

Honestly, it's as if Christians believed that before Moses returned from Mt. Sinai that killing, raping, theieving were consider "o.k" things to do.

We formed language before we formed religion, and a belief in God. The very fact that we formed language shows that we are a trusting and altruistic species. If the majority was lying it would render language pointless.

reply to post by ExistentialNightmare

You assume that non-believers are self-serving because of lack of belief; and i've explained that this is nonsense; and offensive.

This thread is about people who believe in a god who either takes people to heaven or hell, not on what non-believers think so I decline to carry this conversation further.

reply to post by HolyandClean


OK, well, wow, you quoted a lot of verses there, but I will try to not reply to every single one, just the basics. Here it is, in a nutshell. OK, hell, yes, it's there, it's real, and it's where people are hanging out until it gets thrown, along with Satan and his angels, into the Lake of Fire - it's in Revelation. And, see, God doesn't really need to track time, as we do, his existence is from and to all of eternity. And, when we die, we automatically skip past the time our bodies were in the ground, to go be with him. And no, no one knows of anything when they are dead, so when they appear in heaven, it's like they just got there. Sort of like having surgery, you wake up, and it's like it never happened, like you just fell asleep. And the Bible says, we will not all sleep, but we will all be "changed", in the twinkling of an eye. Changed into something you cannot understand. If you would like a description of what it's like, see Isaiah2620's channel on YouTube, and watch his video on the rapture. He has some really prophetic dreams, and confirms them by going and searching for the things he saw in his dreams, often things he did not know existed, then he finds out what they were. Pretty cool for him, as the guy who had all of those visions he wrote in Revelations, he had no Google images to look up, he just described it as best as he could, which made it hard to understand for a long time. Now, at the end of days, all things are being revealed, more and more puzzle pieces are coming to life, etc. Anyway, as for what happens when you die, I recently heard a scientist talking on the Coast to Coast radio broadcast. They discuss a lot of paranormal, supernatural, etc. stuff. This scientist said that his scientific mind did not approve of this eternal life theory. But, he has done extensive research and interviewing regarding near death experiences, a lot of scientific work and is doing a book or something, can't remember. He said his research has led him to the knowledge and understanding that, yes, there IS an afterlife, and yes, you DO need to think about it and get right with the one who will be there when you get there. We are created beings, all things were made by Him, and we need to become one with our creator to function as we were created to, and also to ascend to be where our creator has prepared for us to be. It really is a place that no human mind could fully comprehend or even describe. Can any of us imagine no more want, pain, suffering, fear, loneliness, death, hunger, tiredness, darkness, anger, jealousy, strife? Sure would love it, tho.

reply to post by HolyandClean


That's why there is a resurrection of the dead! Dead people are dead!! No one goes anywhere when they die. Hell isn't even mentioned in the Hebrew or Greek scriptures. It is man made. It is a diabolical teaching that keeps people in mental anguish and torture out of fear. We are called to love God because he is God, not out of fear! The doctrine of a hell makes God out to be the most horrible monster of all. It is blasphemy.

reply to post by Soldier of God

II
That verse is not being read correctly. II Corinthians 5:6-8: "Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, while we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord; We are confident, I SAY, and willing RATHER to be absent from the the body, and to be present with the Lord."

Paul is speaking, not God. Paul is stating he would rather be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. He would RATHER it be that way. It isn't. When we die, we are dead. Consciousness ceases. Nobody goes anywhere until the resurrection of the dead. Because of false teachings in the church, billions of people are thinking they will be going to "hell" or "heaven". NOT! Think about that, sending billions of people to an eternal place of fire before they are even judged!! Besides, hell is a man made invention. It isn't even mentioned in the Greek or Hebrew manuscripts.

reply to post by aero56

NOT! Think about that, sending billions of people to an eternal place of fire before they are even judged!!

No, we don't.
Just to be clear, I am agreeing with you. A lot of times people don't understand when I am.
I went to that place where people go when they die. It is not torture but also not fun.
A waiting room is how a lot of people describe it and I go along with that sort of thinking.
But you are right, first Judgement, then whatever the verdict and sentence dictates.
To describe it myself, I would say it is like a world within the world with a sort-of sky but not like with a sun and moon and stars. The movie, the Newman Show would be a good analogy where there was a microcosm world inside a big dome. If you sit in the middle of it, it seems normal enough if you did not consider the passage of time and how there is no way to keep track of it.

reply to post by jmdewey60


This thread is about what truth doctrine claims; it claims if WE (non-believers) do not follow it's word that we will surely be considered sinful, and are worthy for Hell.

I'm higlighting how scripture is abhorrent; full of contradictions (scientific. historical, philosophical)

You're more than entitled to disagree, and to decline further communication with me.

Peace.

Originally posted by HolyandClean
Basically, anyone who has ever died is in a deep sleep right now. It's kind of like before you were born. You had no thought process at all, no consciousness to speak of. You didn't KNOW anything. The lake of fire is going to be created at Jesus's 2nd coming!

The fact that some people focus on this so much is amusing to me. The entire discussion and argument is pointless and irrelevant. The discussion is flawed because you're looking at it from your point of view when a second person other than yourself dies. You attend their funeral, you visit their grave for 20 years, and you think about how long it's been since they died. Now, stop thinking about you and imagine you are them.

How much time passes for you if you die and Christ returns 2,000,000 years later? The answer of course is no time at all. You die and from your point of view you instantly meet Christ. Thus to die is to instantly be with God.

reply to post by dbates


Look A cryogenic sleep capsule...

Never thought of it that way. I like your thinking.

Besides... Time is relative. We all experience that.

reply to post by dbates

Thus to die is to instantly be with God.

Sorry; is this the truth? Or is this your belief?

reply to post by ExistentialNightmare

Can I pick both? I believe this is the truth.

Again I understand the different factions who believe that people who are dead are asleep and those who believe that you die and are able to still experience time like most of the Near Death Experience stories you read. You know where people hang out in the operating room and look at their dead body for a bit of time and then they take a trip down the tunnel of light.

My point was that the argument isn't worth having because either way you look at it death becomes an instant connection to eternity. Inside of eternity what does time have to do with anything? There is so much we don't know or understand yet but either route you take here has the exact same perceived experience.

reply to post by dbates

Can I pick both? I believe this is the truth

If you're willing to let the fortune teller, or astrologist to dictate their beliefs as truth. If you're willing to let the Satanists disseminate their words and declare them as truth. If you willing to let anyone's beliefs be declared as truth. Even positive atheists ("I declare there is no God")

It's not something i agree with; if you can't prove something; you risk being proved wrong. Strong faith is no argument for the truth of any particular theory.

Again I understand the different factions who believe that people who are dead are asleep and those who believe that you die and are able to still experience time like most of the Near Death Experience stories you read. You know where people hang out in the operating room and look at their dead body for a bit of time and then they take a trip down the tunnel of light.

By definition; NDEs are not evidence for anything that happens after death. Though, they are still worth investigation, and no less interesting.

My point was that the argument isn't worth having because either way you look at it death becomes an instant connection to eternity.

Again,is this your belief? Or is this absolute certaintity?

Our bodies allow for perception; to smell, to see, to touch; what makes you think that we can percieve anything when electrical activity ceases in the brain; and the body begins to decompose?