You Might Be Christian If.....

reply to post by Trueman


You wrote:

["I do not tolerate the bashing against any religion, not only christianism."]

Afraid you'll have to get used to criticism, and learn from example how useless it is to start on the 'christian-persecution' direction.


Quote: ["The search of God deserves all the respect we can give."]

Why? Respect is something you earn.

Quote: ["It doesn't matter what you think right?"]

Is this your way of earning respect?

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by Trueman

 

I'm an atheist, I know Christianity all too well because I was once a Christian...and yet somehow I know more about it now than I did back then. I read the Bible, apologetics, theology, etc...and it turned me away from Christianity when I realized just how flawed it all was.

Where is the flaw in practicing forgiveness for yourself and others so not to be swayed by the would be manipulations of the outside world and it's values?

Click here for more information.

reply to post by HunkaHunka


I know that wasn't directed towards me but it's not necessarily the flaws of the ideas that have many people against religion, it's the flawed actions of religious people which are just one of many factors that sway us away from religion. The crusades, the suppression of any knowledge that went against the church for hundreds of years, persecution for not believing in a religion, the countless wars which began as a result of religious beliefs, the Spanish Inquisition, burning people that were thought to be witches, etc. As good as the idea of treating those as you want to be treated, forgiveness, and all that fun stuff sounds, an idea that millions have doesn't makeup for the millions of lives which were lost due to whose imaginary friend they should worship. Plus, imagine where science could be right now if religion never held it back? We could be in the far reaches of the universe laughing at the idea of a deity for all we know.

reply to post by TupacShakur


you definately speak the same language, I suggest a little reading up beginning with just the words religion and predictable

Michael White, writing for the Twentieth Century Atlas, has compiled an intriguing list of body counts, attributable to the worst known acts of war, and other human atrocities, dating back to the fall of Rome. I will venture to briefly list them here by count and century:

55 million, Second World War (20C); 40 million, under Mao Zedong (20C); 40 million, Mongol Conquests(13C); 36 million, An Lushan Revolt(8C); 25 million, Fall of the Ming Dynasty(17C); 20 million, Taiping Rebellion(19C); 20 million, toll of American Indians, (15C-19C), 20 million, under Joseph Stalin(20C); 19 million, Mideast Slave Trade(7C-19C); 18 million, Atlantic Slave Trade(15C-); 17 million, Islamic Conquest of India(14C-15C); 17 million, British India(19C); 15 million, First World War(20C); 9 million, Russian Civil War(20C); 9 million, Hindu Thuggee cult killings(13C-19C); 8 million, Fall of Rome(3C-5C); 8 million, Congo Free State(19C – 20C); 7 million, Thirty Years War(17C); 5 million, Russia's Time of Troubles(16C-17C), 4 million, Napoleonic Wars(19C); 3 million, Chinese Civil War(20C); 3 million, French Wars of Religion(16C).

Taken all together, we have 401 million deaths over nearly 2000 years of war and barbarism. Just for the sake of argument, let’s add another 10%, or 40 million, to cover margins of error, and other wars. This would bring our total to 441 million deaths over the last 20 centuries.

Now, what about abortion? At the low end of the Guttmacher scale, even if we ignore all abortions done prior to 1980 when accurate numbers are a little more difficult to ascertain, abortion accounts for more than twice the number of deaths by war! In just the last 25 years, the ghastly toll for abortion has totaled over 900 million dead babies. Taking the more probable mean average, the toll rises to well over 1 billion babies; or nearly three times the amount of deaths due to war.
www.covenantnews.com...

This is an incomplete listing of some very bad things that happened before the 20th Century. I've scoured the history books and collected most of the major atrocities that anyone has bothered to enumerate.However, just because an event is missing from these pages doesn't mean that it wasn't very bloody..Maybe the 20th Century really was more barbaric than previous centuries (as some people say), but you'll need more complete statistics to prove it. [n.1]
necrometrics.com...

Body Count of the Roman Empire
•(Extremely Preliminary and Debatable) TOTAL:
◦All Punic Wars: 1.0M
◦Gladiators: 1.0M
◦Slave Wars (Servile Wars): 1.0M
◦Cimbri-Teutoni War: 0.3M
◦Social War: 0.3M
◦Mithridatic Wars: ca. 0.5M
◦Gallic War: 1.0M
◦Juleo-Claudian Paranoia: 0.028M
◦Jewish Wars: 0.4M
◦Boudica's Revolt: 0.15M
◦Decline and Fall: 7.0M
◦TOTAL: over 13.0M
necrometrics.com...

Total War Dead Throughout History
I haven't the foggiest, but here's an interesting essay on the subject: The Great "War Figures" Hoax: an investigation in polemomythology rint.rechten.rug.nl...

And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.'

I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when saw her I marveled with great amazement.

and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. -Revelation
www.biblegateway.com...

did you say science?

The Scientific 100:
A Ranking of the Most Influential Scientists, Past and Present
www.adherents.com...

The King James version of the Bible is only a book. What can a book do in history? Well, whatever the reason, books have played a large part in the movements of men, SPECIALLY OF MODERN MAN. www.bible-researcher.com...

SIMPLY PUT, THE BIBLE IS THE MOST influential book ever written.jyte.com...

His body also was like the beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in colour to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude. -Daniel10

Brass is a metal composed primarily of copper and zinc. Copper is the main component, and brass is usually classified as a copper alloy. The color of brass www.madehow.com...

Brass contacts are hidden inside all electrical fittings

Go, shut thyself within thine house..say unto them -Ezekiel3

and they sparkled like the colour of burnished brass..they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle.. their appearance was like burning coals of fire, and like the appearance of lamps..the fire was bright, and out of the fire went forth lightning..appearance of the wheels and their work was like unto the colour of a beryl: and they four had one likeness: and their appearance and their work was as it were a wheel in the middle of a wheel..they turned not when they went.. their rings were full of eyes round about them..for the spirit of the living creature was in the wheels..as for their rings, they were so high that they were dreadful..the likeness of the firmament upon the heads of the living creature was as the colour of the terrible crystal..And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it..it had brightness round about. -Ezekiel1

And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind. -Revelation4

The first "MODERN CAR" was (internationally agreed) invented by the German Carl Benz in 1885...The first "MODERN COMPUTER" was invented by German Engineer Karl Zuse in 1941, the "Z3" was the first fully functional program-controlled electromechanical digital computer in the WORLD..The Internet was invented by the US but not a single person like other big inventions have their one master-mind-inventor, no it was ARPA (now know as DARPA) who invented the internet and later different countries (here UK, Swiss and I think some others) made that, already invented internet, worldwide(web) accessible..Mr.Bell was scottish..The idea for the telephone from the Frenchman Charles Bourseul, nobody recognized him, 1860: The Italian born, in New-York living Antonio Meucci, presents his phone to the public and magazines are writing about his invention (but no money for the patent),1861: Philipp Reis is working on his telephone and shows to the public at different conventions...

inventions by country www.eupedia.com...

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him -Colossians1

But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows -Matthew11

For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. -Isaiah55

awfully coincidental

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
.and yet somehow I know more about it now than I did back then.

Or, you think you do, which I suppose to you comes to the same thing...
My idea is simply that you have believed what you've been told by your new friends, and you cling to the herd mentality. Was it you who posted a news article about a debate proving that Catholics are evil, from the Independent, an article 2 and a half years old - as it was current? Shame...

Originally posted by TupacShakur
reply to post by HunkaHunka

 

I know that wasn't directed towards me but it's not necessarily the flaws of the ideas that have many people against religion, it's the flawed actions of religious people which are just one of many factors that sway us away from religion. The crusades, the suppression of any knowledge that went against the church for hundreds of years, persecution for not believing in a religion, the countless wars which began as a result of religious beliefs, the Spanish Inquisition, burning people that were thought to be witches, etc. As good as the idea of treating those as you want to be treated, forgiveness, and all that fun stuff sounds, an idea that millions have doesn't makeup for the millions of lives which were lost due to whose imaginary friend they should worship. Plus, imagine where science could be right now if religion never held it back? We could be in the far reaches of the universe laughing at the idea of a deity for all we know.

But all of those atrocities exist without religion...its foolish to say that these people did these things because they believed in God... The Israelites didn't cause a mass genocide on Jericho because they believed in God.... They did it because they wanted the city, and felt justified since they were in their forbears lands. God is simply a device in that story that represents a feeling of justification that would have been there regardless...

The crusades were no more based on a religion than invading Iraq was based on WMDs... It was simple Evolution of empires...

And the Spanish Inquisition... What the hell was that? It surely wasn't because they believed in the theology of Christ.... No, it was a political desire to expunge the Jews...plain old xenophobia masked under whatever happened to be the authoritative narrative of the day...

I mean honestly, look at the atrocities that were caused when there was no organized religion on the face of the european continent... The barbarian wars amidst and for years after the fall of Rome had nothing to do with organized religion... Indeed it was only after alliances were made the Holy See in Rome that the barbarian wars came to a close

These barbarian wars had only to do with assertion of dominance and revenge for past wrongs...

Look at the Native American tribes... Several of them created horrible atrocities, not because they believed in God... BuT because they were human....


This argument that religions are the biggest cause of suffering in the world is complete bunk.

Originally posted by HunkaHunka

But all of those atrocities exist without religion...its foolish to say that these people did these things because they believed in God... The Israelites didn't cause a mass genocide on Jericho because they believed in God.... They did it because they wanted the city, and felt justified since they were in their forbears lands. God is simply a device in that story that represents a feeling of justification that would have been there regardless...

The crusades were no more based on a religion than invading Iraq was based on WMDs... It was simple Evolution of empires...

And the Spanish Inquisition... What the hell was that? It surely wasn't because they believed in the theology of Christ.... No, it was a political desire to expunge the Jews...plain old xenophobia masked under whatever happened to be the authoritative narrative of the day...

I mean honestly, look at the atrocities that were caused when there was no organized religion on the face of the european continent... The barbarian wars amidst and for years after the fall of Rome had nothing to do with organized religion... Indeed it was only after alliances were made the Holy See in Rome that the barbarian wars came to a close

These barbarian wars had only to do with assertion of dominance and revenge for past wrongs...

Look at the Native American tribes... Several of them created horrible atrocities, not because they believed in God... BuT because they were human....


This argument that religions are the biggest cause of suffering in the world is complete bunk.

Agreed, 100% HunkaHunka....

Originally posted by bogomil
reply to post by Trueman

 

You wrote:

["I do not tolerate the bashing against any religion, not only christianism."]

Afraid you'll have to get used to criticism, and learn from example how useless it is to start on the 'christian-persecution' direction.


Quote: ["The search of God deserves all the respect we can give."]

Why? Respect is something you earn.

Quote: ["It doesn't matter what you think right?"]

Is this your way of earning respect?

No, you are wrong in everything. I have to thank you for that post, now I realize it will be impossible for you to see the truth and accepted, I am christian, but only Jesus can make that miracle so lets pray for you.

I'll make an example : You have to respect Mother Earth right ? or she has to earn that from you ?

Another : Did you ever tell your parents that they have to earn your respect?

Your hate makes you blind. Get help.

reply to post by awake_and_aware


Do you think everyone was under the impression that killing, raping and theiving was an "OK" thing within any social group before Moses gained the 10 Commandments from Mount Sinai?

400 years before Moses there was Abram, and he was justified only by belief.

After the cross? Do you mean the human sacrifice of a man named Jesus?

Yep, who else?

Have you tried to read the Bible, and if so, how far would you come? Further as Genesis 5 verse 4 or are you stuck by Genesis 4 verse 17?

I can translate

I was joking.

reply to post by kinglizard
Do you mean by Pre 1:18 For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow. Or by something else? That your family and friends run away, because your heart is full from Him, so your mouth would overflow from it?

reply to post by David291


What do you mean with: "He has done NOTHING for us". Wasn't it enough that He died on the cross for all human being? He make the path free: Mat 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; because before Him, someone else had to do that: Lev 9:7 And Moses said unto Aaron, Go unto the altar, and offer thy sin offering, and thy burnt offering, and make an atonement for thyself, and for the people: and offer the offering of the people, and make an atonement for them; as the LORD commanded. but they have to do it every year after year.

Look for example to: Num 35:9 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Num 35:10 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come over Jordan into the land of Canaan;
Num 35:11 Then ye shall appoint you cities to be cities of refuge for you; that the slayer may flee thither, which killeth any person at unawares.
Num 35:12 And they shall be unto you cities for refuge from the avenger; that the manslayer die not, until he stand before the congregation in judgment.

It seems to be he is free in that city, but he isn't, because verse Num 35:28 Because he should have remained in the city of his refuge until the death of the high priest: but after the death of the high priest the slayer shall return into the land of his possession.

And now the high priest Jesus, priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec, lives forever!

And Mat 6:25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?

And all for you have to do is just believe for what He have done> Is that too much for you or for others? Just ask... move your lips... you don't have to be sacrified... no, just ask!

I've been reading through the thread more and I have a couple observations.

To the Christians, you would do well to stop sounding so condescending towards others. Even when you are saying, “I will pray for you,” you sound like you are talking down to others. If you will pray for one, let it be done, not announced. There is no need to say that to anyone. Maybe we don't want your prayers. It's better to keep quiet about it. If you love us like Christ loves us then just do it, don't make a show of it.

Also, don't assume just because someone is arguing against Christianity, or “christianism” as one poster labels it, that they don't know about it. There are some who study all religions, and there are some, like me, who are former Christians and know all about it.

I also liked how one poster put it, Christians make all kinds of mocking statements and even jokes about atheists and other people's religious beliefs. Do you think God is pleased with you when you do that? If He is, then why would you be happy to follow such a jerk?

Don't be offended at others' jokes and humor at your expense. You really should be happy, because as Jesus said in Matthew 5: 11-12,

“Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. 12 Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you. “

reply to post by Ellie Sagan

It's better to keep quiet about it. If you love us like Christ loves us then just do it, don't make a show of it.

You are right, my dear, it would ben similar like: Mat 6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

And if I want that some of my friends, family or who else wants to confirm a Christian, I would pray him no good, but that his or her life would be a disaster... because then you need Him most!!

who are former Christians
That isn't possible. Or you where never be a Christian.. or you are a Christian!

reply to post by Rustami


I don't understand your logic, people have died in other wars so that justifies religious wars? And what does abortion have to do with the issue at hand? I was talking about deaths caused by religion, and you just post some stats about deaths not related to that? Why don't you put up some obesity, cardiac arrest, and cancer stats while you're at it. And religion was without a doubt the most detrimental thing to science, they suppressed anything that went against their teachings for HUNDREDS of years. Do you know how much we could have learned and grown in that time? A few measly inventions and bible quotes don't even come close to making up for that.

reply to post by HunkaHunka

This argument that religions are the biggest cause of suffering in the world is complete bunk.

Yeah this argument that I never stated in my post.

So because people have died in wars not related to religion, that justifies the millions of people who were killed because of some stupid religious conflict?

Plus a pretty big blow to mankind was science and anything that went against the church being suppressed for hundreds of years. Just think where society would be right now if we never had religious fanatics standing in the way of science.

Originally posted by TupacShakur
So because people have died in wars not related to religion, that justifies the millions of people who were killed because of some stupid religious conflict?

I think that too is a statement nobody made. Nobody is looking to justify war, but simply pointing out that doing away with religion won't make the world a better place.

Plus a pretty big blow to mankind was science and anything that went against the church being suppressed for hundreds of years. Just think where society would be right now if we never had religious fanatics standing in the way of science.

The actual historical record is that the RCC was going along with the accepted science of the day. It was Galileo against established science, not science against religion; the church and state were intertwined. The scientific establishment was the impediment to progress, not the RCC. And I'm no fan of the RCC.

Also, calling people "fanatics" because you don't like their ideas betrays a prejudice not unlike those of the people you refer to as fanatics. There are all sorts of fanatics, but they aren't all people who disagree with you.

Just some observations.

reply to post by OldHag


It is most definitely possible to be a former Christian. To be a Christian is to believe that we are born sinners, need a savior, Jesus is the only suitable savior because He was born to a virgin and did not have the sin nature in Him, to believe He is equally son of God and son of Man, to also believe that He died on the cross to save us from eternal damnation away from God, and to live life accordingly, knowing that He is the only reason we are able to live a life in communion with God Himself. In a nutshell that's it.

I have been in a Christian extended family since birth, hence influenced by it, but also was a DEVOUT Christian for 11 solid years of my adult life. I know the teachings and about faith and all that. I believed it so solidly that I alienated a lot of people in my life because of it. I am not a jerk, I am kind and loving. I helped people when I could (still do), I ministered in a prison, I used to teach the kid's Sunday school. I helped all the time and tithed faithfully even when I really couldn't afford it. I gave and gave in service to God.

I no longer believe all that. Hence, I am now a former Christian. See how it works?

reply to post by SaberTruth

I think that too is a statement nobody made. Nobody is looking to justify war, but simply pointing out that doing away with religion won't make the world a better place.

Ok I can understand that. And I wasn't calling every religious person a fanatic, I was referring more to the kookier ones who threw people into jail or isolation from society because they had beliefs that went against the church.