Illuminati and Freemasons in cahoots....

See above. Additionally, if there was thought that it was added later they would not be saying, "After the Council of Trent", they would be saying, "After the War of 1812" or some such. Stop with the semantics.

That is only according to some people, there is no real evidence for that.
who added the eye, we know it was not the original artist, then who did it ?

It is believed that Jacopo Chimenti, a follower of Contormo, was the artist.

Do you got a source that states he painted the eye and on what date ?

Hmm. Are you sure?

I kind of like this Antoniazzo Romano work the uses a triangle to depict the Trinity. You were right though it was not from the 16th Century, it was from the 15th CENTURY. Oh well.

So where is the eye and the triangle ?

I have several more that I am fairly certain are from the same era but I need to confirm the dates. I particularly like this fresco that is located in the Vatican and shows very clear Renaissance influence.

The symbol is not here either

I also like this tapestry which is also located in the Vatican. As the Vatican Museum website states, all of their tapestries date from the early 1,500's so I only need to locate on which ceiling it is hung in the two main galleries. It may take some work as they are both 1/2 mile long. But I am sure that if need be I can discover exactly where it is hung to confirm this picture.

Where does it say that, who knows when it was painted, there is no date for it just you saying it is.
Churches get updated, or got updated in paintings in gradual time, you got to have precise information on the object you are talking about. No sources just you stating it is so.

33rd Degree Masons only matter in the Scottish Rite and their opinion about anything counts the same as any other person (or Mason for that matter).

That is only your opinion and you can't force it on others, for others it holds value since it comes from a high masonic figure. Of course the opinion of a 33 matters because it's exposure, make sure if he was still alive just like you he would rectify his statement inventing something saying that they "quoted him out of context" or god knows what.

You lost your main arguement, that Masons created the Great Seal, and are now getting your butt kicked on any other point that you try to obfuscate that arguement with. Do you know why? Because everything is a figment of your delusional thought process.

Yes Masons along with others planed the great seal yes, they told the designers they want that.
I can't see why it's a figment of my imagination

Here's an end to at least part of this argument:
This is a lodge charter dated 1771.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/ddf4d598c765.jpg[/atsimg]

As we can clearly see the Pyramid with all seeing eye is plainly visible.
What refutation can be brought against this image ?

reply to post by Version100



That is a beautiful and rare specimen, thanks for the addition.






[Mod Edit - Replaced unnecessary quote with Reply - To tab]

reply to post by Version100

I see an eye within a triangle (representing the either the holy trinity or the 3 great attributes of God).

Again though, this is one Lodge's charter, not necessarily evidence of widespread use by the entire Fraternity. I mean the eagle is not widely seen or used by the Blue Lodge. Nor does the eagle make an appearance in the 3rd degree. I'm still waiting for someone to show me what degree the pyramid makes an appearance in.

As Pepsi said, it is a nice picture though.

Originally posted by KSigMason
reply to post by Version100

 

I see an eye within a triangle (representing the either the holy trinity or the 3 great attributes of God).

Again though, this is one Lodge's charter, not necessarily evidence of widespread use by the entire Fraternity. I mean the eagle is not widely seen or used by the Blue Lodge. Nor does the eagle make an appearance in the 3rd degree. I'm still waiting for someone to show me what degree the pyramid makes an appearance in.

As Pepsi said, it is a nice picture though.

You can live in denial, it is not a crime.

I actually have a huge library of Masonic material, much of it very old, and I can produce more
images of the all seeing eye in the triangle but no matter what I produce you will stand in
denial so it is really pointless to continue arguing.

I fail to understand what you fear, is it just the perception that the symbol on the back of the
dollar bill is something "bad" so you feel a need to distance the symbol from Masonry ?

There is no darkness in exoteric Masonry so why do you feel the need to deny things that
have been in published literature for the last couple centuries ?

All I see occurring by these denials is a deepening of mistrust and that is not healthy for
either side of the equation.

I've often wondered if this site is based upon Masonic symbolism for these reasons in particular:

1. Above Top Secret and Below Top Secret = As above, so below.
2. You can either go dark or go light regarding screen colors = checkerboard floor
3. One of ATS's mantras about Trusting the Crowd Wisdom as challenged in this thread: www.abovetopsecret.com...
It's rare that I've ever seen a Mason speak out against their organization. There are some websites that are centered upon the experiences of former masons. One situation in particular is the fact that it's frowned upon to mention the name of Jesus within the lodges because it may offend. So, knowing this, the Crowd Wisdom dictates that the name of Jesus is offensive. (I'm not religious, so don't derail by asking me about my religion)

I've noticed that the Masonic threads seem to have the same masons that rarely are ever seen on other threads. It's almost as if the Red Phone rings for them so they know to engage. We see this same behavior in the chemtrail threads where certain people only seem to want to discuss contrails/chemtrails. I've always found this behavior to be suspect. It's as if they have no other reason here other than to further the positive image of Masonry.

So, I would now like to ask a question because I want to know the truth and this site encourages seeking the truth. Before I ask my question, forgive me if it's been discussed before.

Mr. Skeptic Overlord, are you a Mason? Is this site organized and designed upon Masonic principles?

reply to post by Version100


tell me, what is the difference between a triangle and a pyramid? I am sure my 10 year old cousin can differentiate between them. can you?

Originally posted by fordrew
reply to post by Version100

 

tell me, what is the difference between a triangle and a pyramid? I am sure my 10 year old cousin can differentiate between them. can you?

Don't feel threatened, little fella, I have shown no hatred toward Masonry.

I have no interest in childish games of semantics, the symbolism is quite clear
and has been in published Masonic material for several centuries.

Not so many decades ago Masonry wasn't cowering in fear and darkness...

Your fear is unnecessary and shows that you have little education regarding
the history of the boys club you belong to.

reply to post by Version100


you are right. I have little / no education of the history of Freemasonry.


however, I do know the difference between a triangle and a pyramid. And I do know that a pyramid with an eye in the capstone is not a masonic symbol .

however, I do know the difference between a triangle and a pyramid. And I do know that a pyramid with an eye in the capstone is not a masonic symbol .

What do you mean, it is clear what the maker of the seal states, that the triangle is the pyramid. A triangle in the zenith of a unfinished pyramid.

Originally posted by fordrew
reply to post by Version100

 

you are right. I have little / no education of the history of Freemasonry.


however, I do know the difference between a triangle and a pyramid. And I do know that a pyramid with an eye in the capstone is not a masonic symbol .

The fortunate thing here is that this material is not for you it is for
people who do not understand the import of Masonry.

No one will look at that lodge charter and not equate it with the
capstone symbolism it represents.

It is clearly the same symbolism as is on the back of the dollar bill
and It serves to enlighten others and encourage them to research.

Your opinions change nothing, the image speaks for itself.

Originally posted by Version100
No one will look at that lodge charter and not equate it with the
capstone symbolism it represents.

It is clearly the same symbolism as is on the back of the dollar bill
and It serves to enlighten others and encourage them to research.

Your opinions change nothing, the image speaks for itself.

Well, you would thing the image speaks for itself, yet some people like Pepsi here obviously don't get it.

The UNFINISHED PYRAMID appears NOWHERE in Masonic ritual or symbolism.

Period.

The triangle containing an eye does. It also appears in Christian paintings that predate Masonry by centuries.

The eye, in both cases, represents the omniscience of God.

In a triangle, it is most commonly associated with Christianity and the holy trinity.

In both cases, the seal and the lodge charter, the inclusion of the eye is to show that God will watch over our works. That, they certainly have in common.

But an eye in a triangle is not exclusively Masonic, nor even exclusively Christian, as a symbol. Anyone can put it on anything for any reason whatsoever.

reply to post by Version100


actually, what you brought to the discussion is the proof that everyone was lacking. What I keep finding is masons saying that the symbol wasn't adopted by masons until long after the seal was made. What you showed, proves otherwise, unless I interpreted it wrong. That is what is known as proof. thanks for providing that. Pepsie should take notes on that.

actually, what you brought to the discussion is the proof that everyone was lacking. What I keep finding is masons saying that the symbol wasn't adopted by masons until long after the seal was made. What you showed, proves otherwise, unless I interpreted it wrong. That is what is known as proof. thanks for providing that. Pepsie should take notes on that.

It's the same symbol, it;s why it was adopted. It is clear what it means, the maker of the seal states so.
This object predates the seal, it is just depicted in a different way in the seal.

Your opinions change nothing, the image speaks for itself. Well, you would thing the image speaks for itself, yet some people like Pepsi here obviously don't get it.

don't get what, that it's a bunch of lies ?

The UNFINISHED PYRAMID appears NOWHERE in Masonic ritual or symbolism.

Like I said, simon says so, Simon is the designer of the seal.

The triangle containing an eye does. It also appears in Christian paintings that predate Masonry by centuries.

That is just your afirmation without backup, below 17 century, good luck finding it.

In a triangle, it is most commonly associated with Christianity and the holy trinity.

That is an adition to Christianity, an invention, bunch of lies.

The original Christian trinity was represented by 3 heads, this with the eye and triangle is an adition and came gradualy in Christianity, inserted in by secret sociaties.

Originally posted by pepsi78
That is just your afirmation without backup, below 17 century, good luck finding it.

Gee, took all of 5 seconds in google.

How's 16th century? 1525, to be specific?

How's 16th century? 1525, to be specific?

You have not read the last posts have you ? The eye in the picture you posted is an addition, it was added later in the painting you provided, by an unknown author at a unknown time.

Meaning the picture you provided is forged with the element on it. (not how the original was)

Originally posted by pepsi78
The original Christian trinity was represented by 3 heads, this with the eye and triangle is an adition and came gradualy in Christianity, inserted in by secret sociaties.

You are correct, here is a depiction of the Christian trinity c1500:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/49e27fabffd1.jpg[/atsimg]

Originally posted by Version100
This is a lodge charter dated 1771.

I can not see the date on there due to resolution, can you highlight where it is located? Also a link to the source would be appreciated.

Originally posted by pepsi78

How's 16th century? 1525, to be specific?

You have not read the last posts have you ? The eye in the picture you posted is an addition, it was added later in the painting you provided, by an unknown author at a unknown time.

Meaning the picture you provided is forged with the element on it. (not how the original was)

edit on 16-6-2011 by pepsi78 because: (no reason given)

Interesting, I'd like to read the thesis of the art historians who claim it was added later. Would you provide a link?