Why is abortion illegal for men but not women?

reply to post by Nkinga

Its not good enough because...you yourself are nothing more than a "clump" of cells. Its not you specifically that gives you thought, ability, reasoning..but its your brain, that is made out of "clumps" of cells that does that for you. Without your brain....you would not have your argument, your personality, your reasoning, you would be nothing but a human being, its why lobotomies would not work

Yes, that is my point, and I fully agree. The question is, when is the brain developed enough for this to be true.

A fetuses/baby's brain begins to develop as early as 4th week. The neural tube closing by the 6th week and blood pumping through its system. You will probably be interested to know that the brain does not stop developing until around age 25! Therefore, my mother could easily "abort" my 22 year old brother when he takes her credit cards agains!

What matters is when the brain reaches the state where it is developed enough to have sentience, thoughts, properties of mind. This does not happen before the cortex develops sufficiently. Cortex development peaks at about 16-20th week when it grows the fastest, and this is when the foetus also begins to move beyond simple reflexes. Coherent brain waves take even longer to develop.

main.zerotothree.org...

We must base our protection criteria on something more than human DNA + biologically alive, otherwise all organ donations, as well as disconnecting even irreversibly brain dead patients would be illegal. That additional criterion is presence of brain waves (just like the dissapearance of brain waves is the medical criterion of death of a person, first appearance of them should be the beginning of a person). That is cca 22 weeks.

eileen.250x.com...

The sanctity of life must not depend upon cardiologic signs alone, with the brain excluded...Certainly the human spirit that emerges in man's unique individuality is the product of his brain, not his heart.

[P]hysicians have always determined when a person is alive by measuring for the presence of certain "vital signs." ...[W]hen it became possible to replace both cardiac and pulmonary functions with machines, physicians turned to measuring the function of the only truly unique and irreplaceable organ — the brain. I submit that from this effort, the following principle has clearly emerged: The presence of a functioning human brain means that a patient, a person if you will, is alive. This is the medical definition of human life. We use it daily.

Since all authorities accept that the end of an individual's life is measured by the ending of his brain function (as measured by brain waves on the EEG), would it not be logical for them to at least agree that individual's life began with the onset of that same human brain function as measured by brain waves recorded on that same instrument?

I suggest that as physicians we should view human existence as a continuum from the first cell division of the fertilized ovum until the death of the last cell in the organism. When the coordinating and individuating function of a living brain is demonstrably present, the full human organism exists. Before full brain differentiation, only cells, organs, and organ systems exist, which may potentially be integrated into a full human organism if the brain develops. After brain death what is left of the organism is once again only a collection of organs, all available to us for use in transplantation, since the full human being no longer exists.

This argument has come to fail with ....Technology! it rears its ugly head again. See, with technology we get all sorts of fun things....like...Ultrasound! Where doctors were finally, finally, finally able to see for the first time just what exactly occurs when an abortion is performed on a living being inside the womb. The being showed a complete understanding of fear and movement away from the object that was coming for it...he/she dodged the apparatus that they use for a D&C abortion several times...it then cries out in pain as the tool finally finds its mark. This is the video what has become known as "The Silent Scream" because...you can actually fully see the 8 week fetus scream out in pain...but obviously it cannot be heard due to it being in the womb. Technology is such a wonderous thing.

I have seen the movie, and it is riddled with scientific innacuracies and propaganda. There was no scream, no sentience and certainly not conscious movements: Here are some rebuttals:

www.plannedparenthood.org...

www.time.com...

Planned Parenthood - Critique of the "Silent Scream" Propaganda Film

Silent Scream is a lie.

reply to post by Nkinga

The video was a real video correct?

Its been doctored to be more suggestive:

In addition, experts in ultrasonography and film technology have concluded that the videotape of the abortion was deliberately slowed down and subsequently speeded up to create an impression of hyperactivity.

The baby being was fearful and clearly tried to move away from the suction instrument.

The movement of the fetus is caused by basic spinal reflexes (not brain reflexes) and the movements of the uterus and fluid induced by the moving instrument.

If you want to believe your layman intuition when interpreting an ultrasound scan over the opinion of medical professionals working with them everyday, your call..

Its an embryologic fact that cortex is not developed enough to even speak of brain waves and possibility of sentience before 22 weeks of prenatal development (and thalamocortical connections required to conduct any sensoric input into higher brain from rest of the body develop even later).

So to sum it up, Prior to atleast 24 weeks, it is medicaly impossible for a fetus to "feel" anything. That is not an opinion, it is medical fact. The parts of the nervous system and brain that we must have in order to feel something are not there. They have not developed yet.

Originally posted by CobraCommander

Originally posted by Funshinez
If you're worried about those devious awful trickster women, as is their nature, poking a hole in your condom simply keep your condoms at the first national bank safe deposit box with twin keys only you and a secret service agent can open and everytime you have sex make sure she signs a notarized document stating intent to not conceive.

edit on 1-6-2011 by Funshinez because: (no reason given)

You make light of a very serious matter. What you are talking about is the equivalent of rape. Anyone hear any good rape jokes lately?

edit on 1-6-2011 by CobraCommander because: (no reason given)

It's not the equivalent of rape! There is no equivalent of rape. Explain to me how you think it's the same thing? You are trivializing rape with your comment.

Originally posted by rival


Personally, twenty years ago a woman told me she had no uterus (a hysterectomy), We
had sex and she bore a child (she had lied to me), The judge nearly put me in jail for
bringing that point up in court (I had witnesses that weren't allowed to testify in court),

Well that's another matter that perhaps needs addressing when we have threads such as these. Yes, you found yourself lied to in this case, but what about the great swathes of men and women that legitimately HAVE been told by doctors that they couldn't have children? When they then go on to get pregnant it throws up all sorts of stress & accusations - DNA tests and the like. So much for an actual miracle.

My partner had a terrible accident as a child, testicles ended up crushed and in his stomach. Actually I know another fella who had the same predicament. Both were told point blank that fathering children was impossible. Both went on to have a child. In my partners case he really did have a hard time being convinced the child was his. Mind you the lads 17 now and is his clone, I swear. Thankfully for the young man & his mother, my fella isn't a stomach punching moron.

reply to post by CobraCommander


The laws are unequal purely because the biology in unequal. This is something you cannot change.
As I've said before, the government doesn't want to pay for your child so you can bleat as much as you like.
Think about the situation with your normal brain, instead of your crazy one.

Originally posted by Abrihetx

Originally posted by CobraCommander
reply to post by Anthony1138

 

Your choice, your responsibility. Shared choice, shared responsibility. Equality. See how that works?

Yeah, but it's her body so she has the tie breaker. I understand your point, but if a child isn't something you want then just wrap it up. It isn't 100% foolproof, but it drops the chances of pregnancy significantly.

Your choice to have unprotected sex, your responsibility to deal with the aftermath. That works too.

edit on 2-6-2011 by Abrihetx because: (no reason given)

Oh no. The woman can use protection too. PLUS she can insist that the man wear a condom or no sex. So why should it still be the man's responsibility if she can't manage her own body? Her body, fine, then she should take care of it better and not blame men for her own shortcomings in managing her own body. Not to mention the fact that she can still have an aborttion or put the kid up for adoption.

Originally posted by hotbakedtater

Originally posted by CobraCommander

Well here we have it folks, I was correct. Any chance to bash females.

I thought the topic was why cant men have abortions, not random feminism berating.

Obviously you didn't bother to watch the video.

And being against feminism has nothing to do with bashing females. Sadly, too many women are too stupid to understand that.

“There is no way of influencing men so powerfully as by means of the women. These should therefore be our chief study; we should insinuate ourselves into their good opinion, give them hints of emancipation…of standing up for themselves…it will cause them to work for us with zeal, without knowing that they do so; for they will only be indulging their own desire for personal admiration.” Adam Weishaupt

Originally posted by Bee2010

Originally posted by CobraCommander

Originally posted by Funshinez
If you're worried about those devious awful trickster women, as is their nature, poking a hole in your condom simply keep your condoms at the first national bank safe deposit box with twin keys only you and a secret service agent can open and everytime you have sex make sure she signs a notarized document stating intent to not conceive.

edit on 1-6-2011 by Funshinez because: (no reason given)

You make light of a very serious matter. What you are talking about is the equivalent of rape. Anyone hear any good rape jokes lately?

edit on 1-6-2011 by CobraCommander because: (no reason given)

It's not the equivalent of rape! There is no equivalent of rape. Explain to me how you think it's the same thing? You are trivializing rape with your comment.

Rape - any act of sexual intercourse that is forced upon a person.

Or as women's rights groups like to point out, rape is about power not sex.

So a woman stealing a man's seed in order to gain power over him, and deliberately using his seed against his will to impregnate herself is clearly rape.

I find it appalling that someone would even doubt that a forced pregnancy was rape.

Originally posted by Bee2010
reply to post by CobraCommander

 

The laws are unequal purely because the biology in unequal. This is something you cannot change.
As I've said before, the government doesn't want to pay for your child so you can bleat as much as you like.
Think about the situation with your normal brain, instead of your crazy one.

Fine, then if the biology is unequal, then gender equality is an illusion, a myth perpetuated by insidious social engineering schemes. Thank you for agreeing with me that feminism is a sham.

reply to post by CobraCommander


I watched the video you put up on feminism. I really was horrified at the Rockefellar agenda but that's really for another thread (I hope this gets heard by a huge number of people). Women like my Grandmother had to run the family business whilst my Grandfather was away for WW1 she also looked after a baby born late 1913. Had she not have had a family business to run she and my Mother would have starved. Little known fact about WW1 that I never heard about during my education.

My Father died when I was a month old, it was a blessing my Mother had worked in the family business and then on ran it. Feminism has sweet F/A to do with either Rockefella's agenda no matter how much he paid, it exists more because women had to work in certain instances. War and death is one, scarpering men is another, low income from the man's job and some women want a career. Again another topic should we give girls as good an education as boys? After WW2 women were forced back into the home to breed, then out again because of the cost of living and society expected girls to be secretaries and nice jobs like nurses etc except that a number of girls were getting their O and A levels and could then choose a career.

I can only speak from my family's experience but despite how his little daughter was conceived, he's off tomorrow so we will be driving down together to fetch her from her Mother's and although its nearly 2 hour driving I can't wait to see her dear little face and my son has already sorted her play area. In our situation we all just love the child and live with the fact that sadly her parents fight like hell.

I would say that abortion is a terrible situation for a woman to face. The emotions it stirs up never go away and there is always a sense of loss, whether it comes out immediately or later in life. Unless you can guarantee that people will stay together for the long haul, providing a happy home for a little one is getting to be more and more a risky decision.
TV ads show the happy couple in a lovely home but how many does that exist for in reality? I can only think of one couple I know that have held their marriage together and thats dreadful statistics really.

reply to post by Lynda101


Don't get me wrong, I am all for equal rights. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a woman running the family business, or being a rocket scientist for all I care. But "feminism" as an agenda is evil. Not the true power of the feminine mind you, which is largely lost on women today who think they need to be men, but political feminism. Brainwashing that includes such mistaken views of history such as the notion that women were "forced" back into the home to be pregnant and barefoot after WWII. The exact opposite is true. It was during that period that so many women were flooding the workplace. This was where the whole idea began that there was something wrong with being a home-maker rather than a professional. And at the same time, women flooded the workplace depressing wages and bargaining leverage as demand for workers drastically declined.

The fallout from that we see today, where the average worker can no longer support their household. Especially if they have kids. The woman MUST work in order to maintain even the most basic American lifestyle. And even there, today I see families where you have both parents working 60 hours a week with 2 kids being raised on Hot Pockets and public school brainwashing. And even there too, a lot of the time you see that these teens have to go out and get jobs. Not to put some money away for college, but often to help pay the rent.

reply to post by CobraCommander


Because (and this is from just my own experience I can draw on) when it comes to children, divorce, custody and marriage............women have the advantage by and large over men.

Men, children and animals have little to no rights.

See my many posts on the ex daughter in law from hell.

Posted this in another thread but I think it is relevant here too. This is the consequence of forcing a man to be a father against his will,,,

Originally posted by CobraCommander
D.C. police officer charged with woman’s murder after she and baby are found dead

...Phillips, a vice officer who joined the D.C. police force in 2003, was arrested by Prince George’s police Friday and charged with first-degree murder. A family member said Phillips, who is being held without bond, lived in the county’s Temple Hills area with his wife of 13 years and their 12-year-old daughter.

Wright, an aspiring Prince George’s sheriff’s deputy, also lived in Temple Hills. She filed a court petition in February seeking to have Phillips declared the father of her daughter, Jaylin Wright, who was born June 6, 2010. She also asked the court to order Phillips to make child support payments and provide health insurance for Jaylin.

Wright was found dead Thursday on the ground in Oxon Run Spring Valley Park, about a mile from Phillips’s home, authorities said. They said Jaylin was found elsewhere in the park, dead in a car seat in Wright’s green 2008 Saturn Vue...

Originally posted by CobraCommander
Posted this in another thread but I think it is relevant here too. This is the consequence of forcing a man to be a father against his will,,,

Originally posted by CobraCommander
D.C. police officer charged with woman’s murder after she and baby are found dead

...Phillips, a vice officer who joined the D.C. police force in 2003, was arrested by Prince George’s police Friday and charged with first-degree murder. A family member said Phillips, who is being held without bond, lived in the county’s Temple Hills area with his wife of 13 years and their 12-year-old daughter.

Wright, an aspiring Prince George’s sheriff’s deputy, also lived in Temple Hills. She filed a court petition in February seeking to have Phillips declared the father of her daughter, Jaylin Wright, who was born June 6, 2010. She also asked the court to order Phillips to make child support payments and provide health insurance for Jaylin.

Wright was found dead Thursday on the ground in Oxon Run Spring Valley Park, about a mile from Phillips’s home, authorities said. They said Jaylin was found elsewhere in the park, dead in a car seat in Wright’s green 2008 Saturn Vue...

And for those who believe its only the males that have a penance for violence.............

Murdered children have been murdered by relatives in most occurrences. According to Friedman et al.,[2] of murdered American children younger than five years old, 61% were murdered by their parents (30% murdered by mothers, and 31% by fathers); homicide was the fourth leading cause of death amongst American preschool-aged children, and the third leading cause of death amongst American children five to fourteen years old.

LINK

reply to post by sonnny1


We have had a rash of domestic violence murders here locally in the last year or so, where the men have murdered their wives/girlfriends. But in none of those cases did the man murder his children, though in two of the cases the children were present in a murder-suicide of the parents (and in one case the woman was pregnant.)

But in one fell swoop, one mother killed as many children (her own) as the number of women who had died at the hands of DV in the previous year in the region.

Originally posted by hotbakedtater

Why would a man have the abortion option when it is biologically impossible for him to become in the condition required to obtain abortion?

Just because a woman is the one who carries the fetus doesn't make it anymore a possession of her's than the father's. The fetus couldn't exist without him. We're talking about a human LIFE here...the child of TWO people. You may not believe a fetus is life or should have any rights, but a genetically distinct human being is created at conception and abortion is putting a stop to a human life. You can't deny that. How is it at all sane to believe only one parent should make the choice of whether their child will live or die? And yes, it IS hypocritical and downright insane for feminists to demand a father have a financial obligation to the child that she made the CHOICE to bring into this world. I think you all know that it's not at all logical or fair, you're simply opportunists. Feminism and abortion are completely worthless to a civilized society.

The question that should be asked is why are men having sex who do not want children?

I guess the same reason women are having sex who do not want children.

reply to post by CobraCommander's


The sadness of what you mention, which I accept is quite right, is that we also have had a number of devastated Father's who have suicided with their children when caring for them, eg few inside their cars. On this issue there is always a counterbalance. Fathers for Freedom in the UK represent mostly dedicated and brilliant Dads, but they pay the price of necessary caution because of a small number of violent, control-freak Dads many of whom laugh at the Police, Courts and Restraining Orders and have no worry about beating up the wife infront of the kids. I had two school friends always concealing Dad's bruises on them and couldn't help noticing a few quiet families when my sons were at school where domestic violence stretched to the kids as well. It never goes away, but also some women have suffered violence and hoped it would change but abort a child becaue they know the home is not a safe one. I have seen several films of a kid, once big enough protect the Mother.

I do think the way the legislature and the delays involved are also hugely to blame. I suspect its under-resourced and low on Government's agendas. Perhaps the whole subject here needs an updating to help ease some of the heartbreak these issues cause.

But ultimately and I know you will probably scream at me about this but it is the man whom,when he has sex deposits the(wherewithall) to create a baby within a woman's womb. His seed and his decision whether to deposit it or not. I am now dashing for cover - you must remember though I am from the generation where women were dolly- birds wearing our false-eyelashes and mini skirts to please our husband's every whim.

Scenario #1:

A woman gets an abortion at a clinic, much to the opposition of the father.

Result: The father is devastated that the life of his child was terminated.

Scenario #2:

A woman is punched in the stomach by her boyfriend, aborting the fetus.

Result: The woman is devastated that the life of her child was terminated.

What's the difference in these two scenarios? You're telling me it only matters if the woman has to go through the trauma of losing a child? Of course, by the logic of "pro-choicers", a life wasn't lost at all....only a "couple of cells". If a "couple of non-human, non-living cells" are lost, then WHAT is your complaint? I can't believe a feminist actually compared getting an abortion to having a hand chopped off. Wouldn't having a hand chopped off be much more devastating than having "a couple of cells" aborted? If the woman in the 2nd scenario was a feminist, the only reason she would be upset is because she can't entrap the father into 18 years of paying child support. THAT is what it all comes down to. The feminists think it's unacceptable for the father to have any say in the life or death of their child because they may not be able to entrap them into paying child support OR they themselves don't want to take any responsibility for the child and would hate it if the father actually did.

The fact that women carry the child around for 9 months is actually a very trivial thing when the parents must take responsibility for the safety, health, education, and overall well-being of their child for 18 years. You should not have the right to deem your child "just another part of your body" and then claim that it's the father's obligation to be financially responsible for the child. I was not any less my father's daughter when I was in the womb as I am now.

Ladies, acting like helpless children all your life is NOT in any way "empowering". Claiming every aspect of a woman's choices (besides abortion) is the responsibility of men is just pathetic. You claim that birth control is a man's responsibility. You claim that if a man is swindeled into a life of responsibility for a child by a woman who lied, that's also his responsibility. If there ever were a gender war, I would support the men. Western women have deteriorated over the years more severely than any other group of people.

Funny thing is, feminists are claiming the laws for abortion are unequal because the "biology is unequal". Just go the recent thread about female navy seals and see how many feminists are whining and complaining about women not being able to join. In that scenario however, the fact that men and women don't have the same options is also because "the biology is unequal". The difference is in that thread, that argument is simply one they will not accept and claim that the difference in biology doesn't matter. Why does is suddenly matter when deciding whether to terminate a human life, a MUCH more significant action?