Why is abortion illegal for men but not women?

reply to post by CobraCommander

Fair enough. I'll go play in another sandbox...

Originally posted by CobraCommander

Originally posted by hotbakedtater

Originally posted by arriana
I I had seen this thread before I joined ATS I would never have joined. The mindset of many of the men here is truly disturbing.

This a pretty typical anti female thread here on ATS. An OP starts a thread with a illogical and ridiculous statement (ie it is biologically impossible for men to have an abortion), then the rest of the anti female posters come out and post, usually keep her legs closed and other such dark age drivel. Fascinating to watch from a sociological pov, and predictible as hell.

Actually, this is a pro-female thread. Empowering women to take the responsibility that comes with the rights they enjoy and the choices they make.

No one here said anything about women keeping their legs closed except in response to women who say that men should be sterilized if they don't want to pay extortion fees.

Go read this thread, it has most definitely been said re: legs closed.

What part of abortion=taking responsibility do you not get?

reply to post by misnomer68


I wasn't kicking you out lol. Just dont want to get too far off the ranch here. Cheers.

Originally posted by hotbakedtater

Originally posted by CobraCommander

Originally posted by hotbakedtater

Originally posted by arriana
I I had seen this thread before I joined ATS I would never have joined. The mindset of many of the men here is truly disturbing.

This a pretty typical anti female thread here on ATS. An OP starts a thread with a illogical and ridiculous statement (ie it is biologically impossible for men to have an abortion), then the rest of the anti female posters come out and post, usually keep her legs closed and other such dark age drivel. Fascinating to watch from a sociological pov, and predictible as hell.

Actually, this is a pro-female thread. Empowering women to take the responsibility that comes with the rights they enjoy and the choices they make.

No one here said anything about women keeping their legs closed except in response to women who say that men should be sterilized if they don't want to pay extortion fees.

Go read this thread, it has most definitely been said re: legs closed.

What part of abortion=taking responsibility do you not get?

In case you forgot, this is my thread. I have read every single post made here.

And I never said abortion was wrong, necessarily. Whether or not I am pro-choice or pro-life is irrelevent to the question at hand.

reply to post by misnomer68

Rabbits abort at will. So do horses. Other animals do too. Are rabbits evil? Horses? We are animals, right? Is that logical enough for you?

Looking to other species to dictate what is "normal" or acceptable for us as humans is not in any way logical.

Male lions kill male cubs...shall we make it legal for men to kill little boys? See how illogical that is?

reply to post by CobraCommander


OMG ,you ARE nuts!! Lol. Less than 100 per week to raise a child including health care. Oh I see you would raise your child at the poverty level. I don't know where you live kid but the cost of raising a child is MORE than that. Anyway I am not coming to respond on this idiotic topic anymore cuz this is obviously a troll and its just attracting more trolls (men) to say all of this really stupid crap. The stuff you are typing is just to get peoples goat and id really hope that a mod on this web site would come along and shut this down.


You sir, are full of sh!?.


I pray non of you idiots EVER produce any offspring because this world is in enough trouble as it is.

reply to post by CobraCommander


The big issues that need to have a set answer other than "its the woman's body" "thats just the way it is"

1. Geography. A fetus/Baby cannot live without being in the mother's womb, getting nutrients that her body provides. An infant born at 23 weeks- to about 3 years of age (I use this age because my 3 year old is more than capable of 1. going to the bathroom herself, giving herself a bath and getting herself something to eat...namely oreos when I am not looking!) cannot live without an older human being taking care of it. Neither are different in biology, genes, dna, physically, etc. The only difference is Geography...one is in the womb, one is outside the womb, but in either case, cannot survive without something else taking care of it. So, then, that being the case..why is it okay to abort a human being simply because of its placement? simply because of its geography? Yes, I realize...the womb happens to be inside a women's body, but if she is capable of making the decision as to what to do once the entity is in said body,...should she not be capable of choosing what to do before it gets there to begin with? (yes...I fully realize..there is rape and incest...and health issues, but that begs the question....if we do away with those problems, impossible as it may be, but hypothetically, if those problems could be dismissed from the equation...) would abortion still be considered "okay"? 82% of abortions are performed on single women ages 18-26, and are what we term "accidental" pregnancies. 50% of that 82% will have a second abortion.

2. Parental rights. A woman is pregnant, 2 humans have caused the conception, half of a male's genes, have of the female's genes are now in the process of creating a human child. Yet again, geography plays a part...its not in the mans body, its in the woman's body, therefore the man has no say in the baby being born or not. Yet, if said child is born, he will also have no say on if he pays for said child or not. Yet, the woman can determine if she becomes a parent or not, if the man becomes a parent or not, she can also in most cases determine she wants to give said child away and in most cases never deal with "child support" issues.

3. Technology. Its pretty clear, technology has come a long long way in the medical field. As little as 100 years ago women were dying in child birth simply because doctors were having delivery after delivery without washing their hands. When it was clear that by simply rinsing the hands in clean water before moving onto the next patient, 80+% percent of delivering mothers and babies began to survive. As much as 50 years ago it would have been unheard of for a baby to survive below 30 weeks. Fast forward to today and we have new stories popping up pretty frequently of world's youngest fetus being born, the earliest so far being 21 weeks and 5 days. Partial Birth abortion is allowed to occur past this week. What I have never been able to figure out is ...the woman still has to go into labor. So...you have a pregnant woman, who has carried a child say into her 22nd week. Her doctor discovers a medical problem that has to be taken care of immediately or her health will be in danger, labor could kill her. So, they then induce her, so that she goes into....."LABOR" the baby is born and then aborted. Rather than..baby being born, and given medical attention, because who knows? it may just be the next news headline. As technology moves further and further along we are faced with a myriad of greatness, and at the same time, worry. As we move further along, its pretty obvious cases like above with become more and more and younger and younger gestations will be able to survive outside the womb. What should our decisions hold then? At the same time, we have the humans on earth who adhere to "its a clump of cells" Those same thinking minded people have made way for the scientist we have today and questions we face on stem cell research. "Test Tube" babies...are a reality..we have surrogate mothers, fertility treatments, egg placement, it really is only a matter of time before we have the ability to do just what most scientist would love to accomplish. A "clump of cells" that later forms into a human being..completely without the need of a womb. This now presents a problem and a non problem. Problem...a clump of cells has no rights...right? abortions stays. A human life has now been proven to be able to exist without a womb...abortion is no longer right. We can simply take the developing fetus out of the unwanted pregnant mother and grow it elsewhere. Sounds right out of science fiction right? crazy? but how farfetched really?

These are the problems we face.
Its a clump of cells...yes, and those clump of cells don't just suddenly "stop" being clumps of cells. They simply turn into bigger clumps of cells. You.

Its a parasite. A parasite is an organism that needs to feed off of something in order to survive. A baby has to live off of its mother's body in order to survive, therefore its a parasite by all rights, and can be aborted. You have to live off of the Earth in order to survive, by all rights..you are a parasite.

Its the mother's choice, we have no right to tell someone what they can do with their body. Again geography, you can't tell a woman what to do with a human inside her body, but when the human is outside..all bets are off. Then..that being the case....a law needs to be made that a murderer cannot be convicted for killing an unborn baby when he/she kills the mother.

The whole..I don't agree with it, but I don't feel I have the right..blah blah blah.....I don't agree with robbery, but I don't feel I have a right to tell a bank robber to bug off.


So, lets take all this away, and lets simply simplify it. Lets make it easy. You have a girl, a boy, a night of "I want it now" a baby is made. can that baby be killed...yes or no?

Originally posted by SHABBYCAT
reply to post by CobraCommander

 

OMG ,you ARE nuts!! Lol. Less than 100 per week to raise a child including health care. Oh I see you would raise your child at the poverty level. I don't know where you live kid but the cost of raising a child is MORE than that. Anyway I am not coming to respond on this idiotic topic anymore cuz this is obviously a troll and its just attracting more trolls (men) to say all of this really stupid crap. The stuff you are typing is just to get peoples goat and id really hope that a mod on this web site would come along and shut this down.


You sir, are full of sh!?.


I pray non of you idiots EVER produce any offspring because this world is in enough trouble as it is.

I am not talking about extras, I am talking about the cost to raise a child. This may come as a surprise to you, but many men who pay support are at or below the poverty line themselves, and STILL forced to pay for someone elses choice to have a child that neither of them could afford.

If the father has more money, fine, he can give more things to the kid. But we are talking about what should be REQUIRED, if anything. And that should never be more than basic maintenance even in cases where the father has made claim to parental rights.

In a single parent home in the Northeast US, it will cost:

$1692 for food
$605 for clothing
$1608 for childcare and educational expenses
Then we will throw in another $623 for miscellaneous

That is an annual total of $4528 or about $87 per week. Divide by two, for both parents, and you wind up with less than $45 a week that a father should have to pay if he is providing medical coverage.

EDIT to add:

Those are 2010 figures.

Simple.

The fetus is part of the woman's body, therefore it belongs to her.

It's like saying "why is it ok for my neighbor to smash his own TV, but I can't walk into his house and smash his TV?"

reply to post by Nkinga

2. Parental rights. A woman is pregnant, 2 humans have caused the conception, half of a male's genes, have of the female's genes are now in the process of creating a human child. Yet again, geography plays a part...its not in the mans body, its in the woman's body, therefore the man has no say in the baby being born or not. Yet, if said child is born, he will also have no say on if he pays for said child or not. Yet, the woman can determine if she becomes a parent or not, if the man becomes a parent or not, she can also in most cases determine she wants to give said child away and in most cases never deal with "child support" issues.

I had to stop reading right there to respond to this. This is something that hasn't been pointed out very well through this whole thread. Let's forget about abortion for a minute. Why is it that a woman can give away a baby without financial obligation, but the father cannot? If the mother doesn't want the baby, can't afford the baby, she can simply give it away even if she chooses not to kill it in the womb. Where does a man have that choice? Can he tel the woman, "hey, I can't deal, the baby's all yours." No he cannot.

The stench of hypocrisy dressed up like a pig in women's clothing.

reply to post by Nkinga


Skimming through the rest of your post there, you seem to make some pretty sound arguments against aborting fetuses.

Originally posted by avatar01
Simple.

The fetus is part of the woman's body, therefore it belongs to her.

It's like saying "why is it ok for my neighbor to smash his own TV, but I can't walk into his house and smash his TV?"

If it belongs to you, then you pay for it. Why should I pay your cable bill just because I gave you a TV?

This is a pretty deep question,,,made me think, though the answer is still obvious.

The woman has MORE rights because she is MORE involved with the pregnancy,..99,9999%
more involved, The entity lies entirely within her, she sacrifices to bring it to term; It uses up her
resources, it messes with her mental health, it handicaps her ability to work, The man's input (no
pun intended) pales in comparison, In fact his ONLY valid claim to rights would be his biological
lineage, And that is not strong enough moral or legal grounds to compel anyone,,,

As to the financial responsibility argument,,,sometimes you gotta pay to play,

Personally, twenty years ago a woman told me she had no uterus (a hysterectomy), We
had sex and she bore a child (she had lied to me), The judge nearly put me in jail for
bringing that point up in court (I had witnesses that weren't allowed to testify in court),

It's a flawed system,,,but its the best we've got,


As to the point about waving parental rights,,,waving parental rights does not cancel the
financial responsibility, unless the mother agrees to full custody without compensation
from the father, Also, if she ever applies for government aid, that point is moot---the state
with come after the father's money.

reply to post by rival

It's a flawed system,,,but its the best we've got,

That's not good enough.

reply to post by arriana


Why does it have to be "men are forcing"? I thought women wanted equality ? With that type of response,its no wonder why women are still fighting for equality,to this day. You cant cherry pick EQUALITY. Sorry,but that type of thinking is hypocritical,sexist,and above all selfish.

I've read a lot of trash on this discussion, but I've heard very little real and reasonable opposition to the premise. Most opposition comes pre-conception, which is not the issue. Everyone seems to agree that pre-conception it is mutual rights and mutual responsibility for repercussions.

Somehow, once conception happens, men get tossed under a bus and many get thrown into a system that encourages men to NOT pay their child support but to get jobs that won't garnish their wages or jump from job to job (the state normally takes a while to catch on).

The system is broken and it is far from the best we can come up with. I'd submit that if abortion remain legal (which I'd prefer it didn't) then we need to set some ground rules.

1) If women want all the choice, fine, they assume all the responsibility.

2) If they want to share the choice, then some middle ground needs to be found to be fair to both parties.

After all, no one would enter into a financial agreement that, after the papers were signed, the second party was able to make all the choices leading to long term debt by the first member. It's illogical and wrong.

Peace
KJ

Originally posted by CobraCommander
reply to post by rival

 

It's a flawed system,,,but its the best we've got,

That's not good enough.

And that's why you started this thread, and that's why we're having this discussion.
If I tried to create my own system it would be flawed and biased as well. I believe there
is no real "one-size-fits-all" solution.

All matters of abortion, parentage and parental rights, cut deep into the philosophical,
religious, and moral fiber of what it is to be human. There is no easy answer.

Fact:
If men could get pregnant, birth control would be free and abortion clinics would be on every street corner.

Fact:
I personally know of three women that are paying court ordered child support to their exhusbands because the husbands won the fulltime custody. One of those women also pays alimony due to her higher income level.

Fact:
The US is a bass ackwards country still stuck in the 17th century.

Fact:
Those who whine about the laws in a 17th century country need to pull their heads out of their self-pitying arseholes and demand change.

Another thing, I wanted to mention. The whole argument of "well, lets let all those against abortion adopt the babies "made" to be born"

Thats not an answer. It certainly isn't a solution. Its an immature defense statement...much like my 10 year old..."well, if I didn't do it the way you want me to, you do it then!"

I'm reminded of children, who maybe didn't clean their rooms quite right so mommy and daddy stepped in to take care of it for them. Move onto more responsible things like money, bills, life and these are the same people who go and place a 50 dollar meal on a credit card, but only made 25 extra dollars to spend that week. I made a mess....i'm to spoiled to clean it up myself, therefore I can either push my toys under the bed, or I want someone else to clean it up for me. Its the same line of thinking. I wanted something "now" I ended up in a mess, so now..I want to get rid of the mess...or hey..since thats not the "moral" option, someone should take care of it for me. When you really break it down..its an extremely barbaric practice.


And the whole "its only an issue when the child is unborn, but forgotten about once its born into an unwanted family". Whose to say so? Whose to say that those who are against abortion stop caring once the baby is born? No one has ever said that. Does it mean they go right out and adopt them up? No. I care about people abusing their credit cards and putting themselves in debt...doesn't mean I'm gonna go make their credit card payments for them. What do we do instead? well, for one, no one below 18 is allowed to have a credit card....think about that....there is an age limit for credit cards...there is an age limit for driving, there is an age limit for working...in fact, there is not one are of life we have that an age limit is not involved somehow..except one. Sex. We prepare our children, our future generations more for economics, college, and the work force than we do preparing them for Life. Real life. Day to day real life.....responsibility. Why is that? I think about myself...16, boyfriend. When I kissed him..I wanted to have sex. Its a normal bodily function, couple with hormones raging in a normal 16 year old body and we have the makings of several problems that run across our countries. But what has changed? surely hormones didn't just all of a sudden appear? surely back in the 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, hormones were active...right? They surely didn't just all of a sudden develop in the 70s, 80s, 90s..now? Yet, while unwanted pregnancies are down, in comparison to yesteryear, they are still..UP. How could that be? what has changed?

Some will say its the introduction of "sex ed" others will say there is not enough of it. My question...when did sex ed begin? and how does it fair in comparison to the rise in unwanted pregnancies?

Some will say tv...theres to much "soft porn" for our children to be exposed to. My question....when did we become more uninhibited on tv and how does it fair in comparison to the rise in unwanted pregnancies.

But an even more, much more with the times question. Technology. I want new shoes? but I have no cash? hey..no problem, I'll just pick up this nice shiny card and wala, new shoes. Next month, I don't have the money to pay for it? ah, no problem, I'll move that payment to the back of my other payments. I have to see that episode I missed of yada yada ..no problem, I'll just open up the screen on my laptop (that I bought with shiny plastic card) where it automatically lights up and brings my facebook right to me, type into said tv channel and there I go..instant tv show that I missed...or of course, there is netflix, tivo, dvr. Now, I want to get a hold of my grandmother and find out if she is coming this summer, I need to know "right now" but I'm in my car....I can do one of a myriad of things....call her from my cellphone...that I bought with shiny plastic card (and still haven't paid off yet) , I can text her (as long as no police cars are around) or..I can email her! and she'll respond back...literally within...seconds! I'm hungry and I want a burger, but I don't have alot of time, no problem..I'll go to this box, talk to an unseen person, order exactly what I want, pay for it with my shiny card, and off I go...if there are 5 cars, well,...thats just to long of a wait...I'll go to the next drive through place.

Catching my drift here? The facts are facts. Human being have become...spoiled, selfish, shallow, "we want it now" syndrome in full effect..and when we mess up? well....its the governments fault, they should not have allowed me to buy a house I knew I could not afford. Its my credit cards company fault, they should not have allowed me to have that limit. Its x and x restaurants fault, they should not have such high fat foods. But, when an unwanted baby is formed? Think about it.." I had sex last night, and we didn't use protection, because we were to caught up in the moment..and my body made a mistake, it shouldn't have done that."

Surely the decision made by the Courts on maintenance of a child concerns one thing only and that is the child's welfare.

You do have to ask yourself, if a Father, what is the best you can do for your child. Do you want your child brought up full-time by its Mother or if she has a good job by a carer whom you trust?

Perhaps I am a bit old fashioned in this specific case because I do think people as they grow up should be made aware, at every opportunity, that there are two kinds of sex, one which intends to create children and one which does not and both boys and girls need to get this firmly in their minds.

You will only change things by making people more responsible. The decision when people can't agree on a pregnancy has to go to one person. If its the man how can he stop a determined women from going to a clinic when he is not there - he can't, kidnap is an offence. Also does one want to live in a Roman Catholic world where the Priest dictates and you 'confess' to him all your evil thoughts or what about a Muslim world where women give up their rights and you support them hook, line and sinker - you can even have 4 of them, imagine that ! Where we are at is not ideal but its better that other options surely.