Mine resistant scout and convoy protection vehicles WE CAN DO BETTER show us your ideas for better v

To start this off I'd just like to say my brother is a marine and I worry very much for the safety of our servicemen. On top of this worry is a deep and abiding frustration with defense contractors who put profit over keeping our service men safe. Because of this I have spent time on the internet researching the scourge that is IED's, and what can be done to mitigate their effects with vehicle design.

I'd like to share an Idea I have in this thread to get the ball rolling then see or hear about the ideas or input on my idea others have.

This is the Steel Lynx RSTA/ convoy protection vehicle

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/4140864e5592.jpg[/atsimg]


The steel lynx RSTA vehicle (RSTA stands for reconnaissance surveillance and target acdquisition) is designed using hub center steering inside an armored section in the suspension arms. With each wheel using hub motors and high impact solid wheels with replaceable subsections .... The front and rear wheels have heavy armor covers, resembling the way a cats claw retracts into the sheath when unneeded. These sheathes will be spring loaded so pressure on them will make them raise allowing automatic obstacle clearance while protecting as much of the wheels as possible. The sheathes will have a 50 + degree bevel to facilitate lifting without snagging and binding when obstacles are encountered.

By doing this it allows us to armor very heavily the section around the wheels and it's motors … The “booms” the wheels attach to are actually swing arms that serve as vehicle suspension they can traverse not just up and down but outward and inward giving it a wider or narrower stance as needed.(This is to facilitate travel through difficult terrain and also to allow the vehicle to be put in shipping containers or other transport means.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/5559a9620425.png[/atsimg]

The wheel covers will function like a cats claw sheath in reverse instead of going outward when pushed they will travel upward exposing enough of the wheel to allow the vehicle to clear the obstacle then immediately return back to covering all but the bottom of the wheel as soon as possible.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/d90ddf285b85.jpg[/atsimg]

THis is a picture of a hub center steering mechanism which each will on the end of the swingarm will be equipped with allowing the vehicle to spin in place and etc.

The hull has it's patented “multi V” bottom ( the hull has 3 V's with vehicle crew positions centrally located in a deep portion of the V. In it's standard configuration all 3 crewmen are spaced down the centerline of the vehicle for maximum protection) and the hull is shaped specifically to shrug off as much fire as possible. The vehicle is able to alter it's ride height (height to bottom of the chassis V's) from 4 to 36 inches... (this is for good reason as wheeled vehicles in urban terrain are already at a disadvantage.) The rear of the vehicle is a little thicker than the front end due to it's ordnance storage compartments at the outside edges... These compartments are designed so any catastrophic hit will push the ordnance up or down out of the vehicle if a compartment is penetrated. (thus keeping a hit from destroying the vehicle in addition there will be blast chimeneys around the ordnance storage areas allowing blow out to go up and down with extra belted armor to keep the explosion away from the crew and power pack)

This vehicle would probably be pretty expensive to build and weigh 8 or more tons but for wheeled scouting it's the best I can come up with and the 4 wheel steering should give them an edge.... (they need to be able to spin in a circle in place) In addition each side of the vehicle will have steps for infantry to ride on and field telephone on a strategically located panel UNDER the vehicle so infantry man can use it as cover from mortars and be protected during firing of the main weapons. The vehicle uses a cast aluminum hull like the m113. It can also accept a pontoon kit that fits under the “suspension arms” making it float but keeping it's pontoons safe. Armoring should be 14.5mm resistant all over and able to take kits for much heavier armor. NOTE the main HULL is exactly that ! It's a Hull the two forward and two aft booms have entrances through the boom mount portion... each boom is independently sprung on horizontal hydropneumatic shocks that also control ride hide... each shock is triple encased in heavy spaced laminate diamond shapes designed to turn rounds coming from vertically and horizontally almost every time. The booms if they lose pressurization have mechanical linkages which allow you to set the height manually. (do not know how this will work but we can make it work.... Not to mention the actual boom design is made specifically to absorb shocks on their own.... I'd like to make it a half track on some versions for heavier fighting or etc.)

CREW: 3 1driver in center of the bow under the main gun … driver has an MG gunport and controls bow flamethrower. 1 Gunner inside turret 1 loader and observer in the stern also with his own small mg mounted over his head... Loader has an armored position for during combat similar to a ball turret in a b 17.


Sensors:
The Vehicle will have a mast style sensor like standard RSTA vehicles and the longbow type sensor masts. Operated primarily by the loader / stern gunner but controllable by all stations each weapon system has a mm wave radar ultra sound and night vision for the crew. Because of the design of the crew vision systems each man's single night vision has multiple fibre optically connected CCD cameras to choose from or can run in composite of ALL of them. (These function in lieu of the vision blocks on a standard vehicle... by using shock mounted standard off the shelf CCD”s behind 2 inch clear ballistic lexan shields you could afford to add in much more. Although I would keep a standard periscope for episcope for each man that does not require power to be operated.) In addition there would be a shot finder integrated into the mast and designed to help back trace fire.



Weapons Systems:

TURRET: The turret on the vehicle is oversized and not all of it heavily armored however the Forward portion is designed to take autocannon hits. The gunner sits in a central section of the turret where he can reload the weapons systems completely under armor. It's main gun located centrally in the convoy security module is a dual feed capable GAU 19 with long barrels fed from two 1100 round bins situated to either side of the gunnery chair (there is armor between him and the bin of spaced laminate variety with blast redirectors out the bottom) … also each bin is designed so in the event it's breached and temperature raises over 140 farheinheit, the rounds are dropped out the bottom of the vehicle. This was difficult to manage because of the mine protection but the engineers found a way dropping it out through a baffled blast chimney.)

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/3219e6a4a1b6.jpeg[/atsimg] This is a simple diagram of a blast chimney which the vehicles integrate at various strategic locations to help prevent flipping from IED blasts and protect key components and the crew from penetrating blast effects by channeling blast through less vital areas.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/2f1bd5aa0f71.jpg[/atsimg]
This is the 50 caliber minigun I am proposing as the main gun in the central turret on a gyro stabilized mount. With it's high fire rate and good range it's a great all around weapon for everything from anti infantry to helicopters and ground vehicles.

on the port wing of the turret there is a 106mm recoilless rifle mounted with a 3 round stripper clip feeding it . NOTE: recoilless is an advanced RR that can fire recoilless mortars... because the vehicle is buttoned up at all times it shouldn't have the issues with it's high pressure weapons...An auto loader pushes up magazines and lets them sit in a blast chimney protected dumbwaiter until the gunner pushes the magazine in after pulling out the old stripper clip.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/b338549becc0.jpg[/atsimg]
further info on magazine fed recoilless rifles

In addition to this the port side has provision for a 4 shot hydra rocket pod. The pod is designed in such a way that when empty it slides open at a 45 degree angle under armor where the gunner can place individual rockets in one at a time as they come up from the dumb waiter.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/266dbb3823c4.jpg[/atsimg] Note: The hydra is very versatile and would give this vehicle great capabilities in any of a dozen roles with nothing but putting different rockets in the pods.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/aa8fc1dde531.jpg[/atsimg] This is a picture of the Seal buggy with hydra rocket pods I'm just adding this to show how easy hydras are to mount and how economical they can be as an option.

The starboard wing pods take star streak and spike type guided missiles in a 4 pack... like the other side they cant in at 45 degrees to be loadedunder armor. Note: Alternately multiple rocket pods of the new guided variety could be substituted for the guided missile.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/2808c9ade790.jpg[/atsimg]
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/8880f2001f1d.jpg[/atsimg]

I hope this will inspire some commentary and the ideas of others.

I was thinking along the lines of this:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/85bb5e9df73b.jpg[/atsimg]

But then again getting them out of there all together is not such a bad idea!

While this might be technically true our military is a vital component of our national security. ANd as such we should strive to equip them as best we can since we are asking them to potentially DIE to support our way of life and pursue our interests.

I have a great respect for the men and women who serve, and it pains me greatly to know they get treated so bad.

So many creative ways to injure and destroy precious life all in the name of fullfilling the wishes of a handful of rich pricks pulling the strings of our elected reps. Bildeburg, folks. God help us all please.
As for the mine detector, wouldn't it prudent to employ metal detection or magnetic concepts in search and destroy efforts of these devices?

The MIC wants you to think battle robots and etc. they want us to mortgage our future to assure our now.

WE need to take back the procurement game from the corrupt people who want to get rich and don't care if people die because of their games and BS.

While deployed the unit I was in conducted RSTA during full spectrum operations. We rolled around in Bradleys and uparmored Humvees. The best vehicle I have seen is the MRAP, it is an awesome V hulled armored vehicle that has great survivability.

Not to mention, a lot quieter than the Brads we moved out in, they could be heard from mile away if not more.
I've seen MRAPs take IEDs that destroy most anything else. All because of the V hull.

Put a lift kit and a V hull on any vehicle in the motorpool, and it will do better.

Yes and putting the wheels forward of the body means detonation on simple mine type weapons will occur in front of the vehicle body. This could in theory make it less likely to incur serious damage from even a relatively large mine. Also with the shocks mounted back and inside their own V in the hull means there's at least a CHANCE that they will survive a blast.

We used "rollers" on the front of many of our vehicles, they did jack, mostly because the IEDs were command wired and not pressure or crush based. That would cause too many premature detonations from non targets, say for example any one else driving over it.

Besides, triple stacked AT mines and propane tanks filled with HME plastique, that equates to almost 800 lbs of alone, combined it was catastrophic. I have seen Bradley's melt down to the tracks, literally from the explosives.

The blast being out front is going to rip the front end of the vehicle apart, seen that too. No the only effective counter to IED's and such, is route clearance. Alert and attention oriented route clearance, and even then some times it isn't enough.

I have seen the flails also, crap, and its just dead weight like the rollers. Whether it is hot plates for thermal sensitive or even IR break beam triggers, it don't really matter. Because the blast is going to effect an area, any thing in that immediate blast radius is getting hit.

V hulls and layers of nano-fluidic kevlar layers, blanketing the inside liner is the way to go.

Folks:

How many times does it have to be stated that Weapons and Tactics is NOT a political forum?

Keep your politics to yourself and discuss the proposed ideas.

-Your Friendly neighborhood Weapons and Tactics FSME

reply to post by ADVISOR


The MRAP has saved a lot of lives.

My brother was hit with an IED in Iraq, he told me that if it hadn't been for the MRAP and it's design he would have been killed.


On the note of the convoy protection vehicle...I like the idea of this vehicle being unmanned for obvious reasons. If we can do this in the air we can do it on the ground.

VX,

I thought unmanned might be a way to go or even optionally manned.

I settled on a manned vehicle for various reasons but I could see optionally manned being used too for this vehicle.
This idea is a response to half a dozen things at once.

1. the humvee is NOT a survivable RSTA vehicle in MOUT type environments nor will it work in nation state wars We'll end up running with our tanks out front, a la the thunder run into baghdad, and this causes it's own difficulties.

2. A purpose built wheeled frame designed to enclose 2 to 3 men and a metric BUTT LOAD of weapons sensors and ammo is inherentliy a "doable" aim with modern technology. (think of it as M551 lite)

3. By concentrating the hull into a small area and putting out booms like this design has means you can arm it relatively heavily for it's size due to it's big stance while not having to spend material and armor on a relatively large volume to extend the vehicle to it's wheels in the front and rear....

4. By making the hull 3 v's (one Big V with a blast chimney in the center and two small V's below the sections that hold the booms the wheels are mounted on) with additional blast chimneys inbetween each V and one at the apex of the V's like the illustration shows we should be able to make the vehicle survive something along the lines of an Anti tank mine... The so called super IED's that are composed of multiple 155mm shells those I don't know that we can build something to survive them every time.

5. The Vehicle is designed to be able to survive some hits while hitting back at a level that is Way out of it's weight class. This does not mean they are invincible. All we can realistically do is try to design vehicles that mitigate the battlefield risks as much as possible through good design.

6. I can't reiterate this enough the SMALL size and relatively heavy level of armor you'd be able to apply to the vehicle because of it's intentionally minimal volume is comparatively much larger than trying to Armor a vehicle that is boxier.

7. I tried to be REALISTIC when thinking this vehicle up. Meaning I didn't stipulate super unobtanium armor or million dollar missiles.... This is something that a company like United defense could very easily manufacture. Once it was in the field it would be relatively easy to maintain due to it's semi modular nature and use of COTS technology throughout

Thank you all for sharing your thoughts so far I look forward to hearing more of them.

To survive the type of improvised explosives being used in our current theaters of operation, there is no real definitive solution. However, I feel that the best course of action would be to take humans out of the equation as much as possible. No bodies, no friendly casualties.

I think what we really need is a fleet of armed unmanned vehicles which are faster, lighter, stronger and capable of being operated from at least 150 miles away for at least 8 hours.

Then outfit that with an ultra-high resolution camera with a 180-degree field of view. Maybe even throw in some nifty features such as night vision, thermal imaging, and real time 3d sonar mapping.

OK even with ISIS type camera systems (ISIS was a homeland security project to create a seamless 360 degree view) we are getting away from what my true intent was.
ISIS camera Article

Put simply my intent was to put forth a vehicle that could be manufactured for under half a million dollars so we could buy LOTS of them and use these large amounts of route security type vehicles in conjunction with persistent overhead cover to watch the routes when we don't have one of the vehicles patrolling. WE can then use the persistent cheap drones running gorgon stare 360 degree ISR systems to guide our array of route security vehicles onto the target.

This is why I did not specify a tracked vehicle also.... the idea was for cheap, fast, and versatile vehicles that you could afford enough of (including manpower) to make a difference in the number of IED"s that can be emplaced.

I know Unmanned is the new panacea and I believe they are useful in very specific roles, but not everything needs to be or will be BETTER if unmanned.

This is a vehicle that I am very fond of, and was designed for mine detection:

The Pookie

Built in Rhodesia in 1976, the Pookie is a light armoured landmine detection vehicle, designed to clear mined roads. The Pookie comprised a monocoque V-shaped armoured capsule raised 700 millimetres above the ground between the front and rear suspension units taken from the Type Two Volkswagen Kombi. The capsule was designed to protect the operator/driver from small arms fire in ambushes as well as from the blast of an exploding landmine. The 700 millimetre clearance was important because the V-shaped explosion of the anti-tank landmine begins to lose its concentrated force at 500-600mm. The suspension provided by the Volkswagen Kombi was also crucial because the trailing-arm torsion bar suspension exerted less downward thrust than conventional coil springs. In addition, the Pookie drove on wide Formula-One tyres and achieved a ground pressure of 3 pounds per square inch, lighter than the human foot. Thus, the Pookie would not even detonate an anti-personnel landmine. The width of the tyres meant also that Pookie would span any landmine hole. Consequently, the Pookie was the only vehicle (and retains this distinction to this day) that could drive over a buried landmine without detonating it. This allowed the driver to use South African Milton metallic landmine detecting pans to fix the position of the landmine precisely. If a Pookie detonated a landmine, and it never did, the use of shear bolts meant that wheels would be blown harmlessly away, as would the battery, the 40-litre fuel tank and the rear mounted 1600 cc air-cooled Volkswagen engine. The driver would be unharmed in his capsule.

My vehicle would be a cross between the Pookie and the Nyala with a weapon something like the Spider, described below:

When ambushes became more frequent when ZANLA realised that the Pookie was blunting their landmine offensive, the Pookie was armed with the Spider 24-barrel rotary 12-gauge shotgun. The Spider, fired in ripples by the Pookie driver pulling on a chain, covered a 270-degree arc with buckshot, either as prophylactic fire or as a riposte in an ambush. In such awe did the insurgents hold the Spider that they began to let the Pookies through the ambushes and attack the convoys instead.

nice idea with the multi V and blast chimney bottom.

i like the wheels also, if the other poster with the "lift" idea meant it could be raised higher from the road

thus being father from the blast in high risk area's, that is a good idea too.


how about a dbble v hull, filled with water or some other liquid to further absorb shock with safety valves that will

blow the liquid out?

eta, @advisior

"V hulls and layers of nano-fluidic kevlar layers, blanketing the inside liner is the way to go."

sorry, did i kinda say the same thing? i really don't know!

I agree on most of your points... I'll have to dig up my schematic for how I want to do the armor...

IT's stolen from the NAZI hardened sub pens in france during world war 2.

Fun fact: No fully finished sub pen roof suffered a penetration during the entire war.

Fun fact 2: Diesel fuel can actually be used as armor if you backfill the tanks as they empty with nitrogen or another non flammable gas.

The Vehicle is designed to be able to raise and lower it's and widen/narrow its stance hydropneumatically on the fly through it's suspension system.

I found a copy of what the internal armor schema will be .
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/d4b160dd95cc.jpg[/atsimg]

This is the structure of the submarine pen roofs from world war 2. By using a modern version of the same attached over the basic hull structure should make the vehicle pretty resistant to damage, and repairable if it is hit by making the armor sections modular.

By using cleverly setup airspaces designed to channel the blast every direction but towards the CENTER of the vehicle you make yourself able to absorb much more damage by redirecting much of the force.

reply to post by deltaalphanovember


24-barrel rotary shotgun? What in the world...I can't find a single reference to that outside that article. I'm thinking that's probably fake.

How about a remote (unmanned) vehicle that is also a decoy?

Imagine, if you will, a normal Humvee (or any other troop transport) configured to be driven remotely, but with dummies inside wearing GI uniforms & gear. So that it appears to be manned. This vehicle leads the convoy with a few other dummy-trucks like it placed in key positions.

The dummies could probably take a few hits & still be usable as decoys.

Maybe a ground penetrating radar device or bomb sniffer could be installed for the purpose of detection. Maybe ablative armor, to redirect the blast, placed on the undercarriage?

It wouldn't even need weapons other than the obligatory .50 M2, which could also be remote controlled, if needed.

That could be pretty cheap, no new technology needed. Use what we have.

I like the design in the OP, but for other uses... and with treads.

Cool thread.