You have died. You are dead. You will continue to die.

Originally posted by beezzer
My post is;
A scathing rebuke of the theory
A total agreement of the OP
Something snarky

Cool. 3 new universes.

Actually 4 new universe's cuz you made a reply that had all 3 in them.
This is starting to get confusing.

I think free will is what we call the process of decision making. There are different decisions that can always be made, but per individual, there is only one decision you will make at any given point in time.

Let's say you're shopping for a car. You're going to pick out a car based on a BUNCH of things that preceded your decision - brain chemicals that were caused by previous brain chemicals/events, memories of past events, the current environment you're in (which was created by cause and effect too) .... so you can only make one decision at this point.

So there's no mutliple universes.

Now if you could prove that free will really did exist, in the sense that you make a decision out of thin air - not based on everything that's happened up until this point - or you could prove there is a law of randomness in the univrese ... then you can go with this theory

otherwise you're trying to prove one thing too early on, gotta start with free will

reply to post by Bob Sholtz

you still make all the choices, its just that you would have always made the same choices.

I don't know about anyone else... but I'm forced to make my decisions/choices based solely on information available to me... be it truthful or be it total BS. When you withhold critical information from decision makers... innocent people get hurt... in ALL realities. Fact. Anyway... free will is only an illusion.

Originally posted by hederahelix
reply to post by Bob Sholtz

 

you still make all the choices, its just that you would have always made the same choices.

I don't know about anyone else... but I'm forced to make my decisions/choices based solely on information available to me... be it truthful or be it total BS. When you withhold critical information from decision makers... innocent people get hurt... in ALL realities. Fact.

edit on 31-5-2011 by hederahelix because: (no reason given)

yes free will is an illusion

even if you're given new info to help your decision, that info only gets to you via simple cause and effect. we're not different than animals or ping pong balls. we're just a lot more complicated. : )

but you have to assume we're more than that to assume there'd be multiple universes, because that assumes you COULd make multiple decisions

now if there IS randomneess out there, that changes

reply to post by hederahelix


everyone makes their own choices based on what is available to them. there are alot of variables, most of which we probably don't know. BUT, if all the variables were exactly how they were down to the atom (including brain configuration and neuron firing patterns) you would choose the same thing you had in the first scenario. it would be a perfect repeat.

you still make the choices, even if the variables are out of your control.

reply to post by Bob Sholtz


yep i agree. that's the purest definition of choice.

but to go with this multiple universe idea, you have to make the assumption that a magical element of free will exists too

i mean your will to do things is based on prior events, yes it exists and yes you're making a choice

but you have no actual say in the matter - i mean its a paradox, there is no such thing as really having a say

Originally posted by schuyler
This is Hugh Everett's "Many Worlds" Theory in a nutshell. You explained it very well until you got to the part about TPTB stifling this information. If this theory is correct, TPTB are only stifling it in some of the universes, but not the others. Given the multiplicity of universes, this would seem a trivial and unnecessary accusation. If the universe actually does work this way, tghis is like saying TPTB are stifling the fact that 2 + 2 = 4. It can't really be done.

Very good, but this thread is dealing with your decisions and TPTB in OUR universe. Yes, it's one of many, but you can only control YOUR choices in THIS universe, and for some reason, TPTB want to keep the average person believing he/she is powerless, victim of circumstance, etc. Again, what happens in other universes is neat, and every decision spawns a new universe, but we are still tied to this one, ours.

Absolutely brilliant and I have a question to you good sir. If you are consciously aware of your existence in only ONE reality at once (this one obviously) does that mean that you exist simultaneously with other versions of yourself in other realities? If so, would that impose your consciousness is divided between these infinite realities, making us extra-dimensional in nature? Or is a consciousness separate from our own in control of that being?

you guys are silly.

where is this magical free will coming from ? : )

In no way can you alter any of the worlds.
you can not choice witch you go to.
as you go to all of them.
its just the one with the best world
thinks maybe hes right?

you should see what I said in world xxz785.
I got a death sentance.

reply to post by GhostLancer


Wow, excellent post OP, star and flag for you Very well thought out and interesting to read.

I love the idea of multiple universes ("multiverses") and I believe that they can happen, and that as you say, each decision someone makes, a new reality is created somewhere.

I had not, however, thought about the possibility of being able to control the reality one ends up in, in the way you suggest - its a fascinating concept. Does this mean that if a person focuses on the things they don't have "I wish I had a nice house, I wish I had a better job, etc" that this becomes your reality, because its all you focus on?

So, to change your reality, you have to think about the things you do want, not the things you don't want? Am I understanding correctly? If so I like that idea.

One thing I've always thought of about the whole multiple realities thing though, is at what point do the realities branch off - only at 'big' moments in your life, or tiny little ones? It's one of those things that if I think about for too long, my brain hurts

Also to consider is the fact that so many decisions one can make in one's life, large and small, can have knock-on effects years down the line, in a way that one might not realise they are related, you know? So while it's easy to think "if only I'd done such and such, I'd now be in a better life" (for example), its by no means as straight forward as that as there could have been a multitude of other decisions / branches off in the meantime. (hope that made sense)

Anyway thanks for making this thread OP, its nice to read a discussion about one of my favourite subjects.

Life is a river and you are on it, and it will flow exactly as it's supposed to flow ... due to all preceding causes ...

If there is an element of randomness in the universe, it does not appear to be linked to our human choices.

It'd be more interesting to see if there are different rivers to begin wtih, not how the rivers would split down the road later

Originally posted by ufoinquirer

Originally posted by hederahelix
reply to post by Bob Sholtz

 

you still make all the choices, its just that you would have always made the same choices.

I don't know about anyone else... but I'm forced to make my decisions/choices based solely on information available to me... be it truthful or be it total BS. When you withhold critical information from decision makers... innocent people get hurt... in ALL realities. Fact.

edit on 31-5-2011 by hederahelix because: (no reason given)

yes free will is an illusion

even if you're given new info to help your decision, that info only gets to you via simple cause and effect. we're not different than animals or ping pong balls. we're just a lot more complicated. : )

Hmmmmm... VERY INTERESTING. I had little idea that so many people do not believe in free will. I didn't realize that there were so many "Determists" around. For those who may not have heard, and I was one until I heard, "Determinism" is the belief that there is no free will, and that though we may *think* we have a say in things, that in reality, we're just playing out a scripted chain of events. Like, if you were choosing between a red car and a blue car, no matter what you chose, it was meant to be and that is all. You only *thought* you were choosing, but it was "in the stars" that you would choose the blue car no matter what.

Quantum Theory and Multiple Universes states that you freely chose BOTH cars, but as a singular entity, you can only perceive existence based on what choice you made in ONE universe, regardless if both choices played out and became two different realities. I don't have the link, but I do remember that last year or earlier this year, scientists actually suspended a particle in what is called a SUPERPOSITION (i.e. the particle was in both states AT THE SAME TIME). It was a valid experiment and scientifically proven; they had a particle in two states simultaneously. I believe in free will. Here's one reason why...

Someone mentioned the 2-slit experiment. Nutshell: photos are shot, singularly, from a photon-emitter at one end of a box. On the opposite end of the box is a sensor pad that records where on the pad the photon struck. In-between the photon emitter and the sensor pad is a wall. The wall has two slits in it. The photon must pass through either the left or right slit to get to the photon sensor. We know which slit it went through by which side of the photon sensor the photon strikes. Easy enough, right?

In that experiment, the "Universe" (or Entropy or Chance or whatever you want to call it) "chooses" a slit. It could be random or not, but for whatever reason, the photon must go through one or the other slit; there is no in-between (at least, not yet). So, after emitting scores or hundreds of photons, there is a pattern on the sensor pad, and as you would imagine, it's about 50/50 left/right. Things changed when the scientists decided to go have a cheeseburger (or whatever) and run the experiment again when no one was around to witness it. What they saw when they returned was baffling.

Instead of the proven "typical" pattern on the sensor pad, they saw a confused pattern filled with interference, nothing like when they were observing the experiment unfolding. Confused, they ran it again and got the "typical," expected result from the first time. What they learned was that when the experiment was observed (by the scientists, sentient, aware beings), the Universe had to CHOOSE a slit: left or right. But, when the experiment was unobserved, the Universe could choose BOTH slits since no SENTIENT OBSERVER was there to force it to **DECIDE** which slit to use. Think about that. It's very profound.

In essence, the 2-slit experiment says that THE MERE ACT OF OBSERVATION can affect the outcome, that there is something about an OBSERVER that forces the Universe to choose a slit without ambiguity. So, if our very presence forces the Universe Itself to choose an outcome (and not just cop-out and choose both outcomes), then we have a power that is very mighty indeed. It is because of this that I believe we have free will, for how can we be FORCE THE UNIVERSE INTO CHOOSING AN OUTCOME if we don't have the power of choice ourselves?

I also believe that ART (in all it's various forms) is what seperates us from simple chemical reactions. In art, we are as close to the Creator --or the act of creation-- as we can get, for we are CHOOSING methods to express ourselves, via paint, music, dance, acting, storytelling, fiction-writing, etc. Our imaginations are very powerful and when we *create* we employ that powerful ability of free will. Sure, you can say, well you were going to paint that Starry Night anyway. Well, I don't think so. I choose what colors to use, what brushes to use, what techniques, how much paint and where. I choose when to begin and when to stop. In art, I am the master of my universe.

I also believe that IF YOU BELIEVE YOU DON'T HAVE FREE WILL, then maybe you don't. --In the sense that our focus determines our reality. I have DECIDED I have free will, and thus it is so. If you don't believe in the power of free will and decision, then you simply probably won't ever have it. It's an easy path to take because there is no responsibility, no regret, no blame. And for some, that is the correct answer. Not for me and those of you who embrace free will and decision. Just my take.

I may be wrong, but I do believe a post very similar to this popped up about a year ago. I'd go search, but I seem to have issues with the search option.

Second line.

Originally posted by Vortiki
Absolutely brilliant and I have a question to you good sir. If you are consciously aware of your existence in only ONE reality at once (this one obviously) does that mean that you exist simultaneously with other versions of yourself in other realities? If so, would that impose your consciousness is divided between these infinite realities, making us extra-dimensional in nature? Or is a consciousness separate from our own in control of that being?

Wow... Great question. I think that anyone who has heard about all of this (Quantum Theory, Multiple Worlds, etc.) is aware that there are other versions of themselves. However, awarenes and interaction are blocked by the "rules" of this mysterious reality. Perhaps dreams are a connection to the experiences of those other versions of you out there. So, yes, we are extra-dimensional in nature, in that your soul/spirit(?) is the same across these vast infinities. Sure, that's speculation, but it makes sense. It explains the nature of dreams. You might be different in a dream, in a different place, circumstance, time... but it is always YOU when you dream, no matter how weird and bizarre the setting of that dream is. YOU never dream as your mother or your friend. I know, someone will likely say they dream as other people, but I find that highly unlikely.

But, it is weird that we are only aware of our consciousness in THIS REALITY, though we may interact or perceive via dreams while sleeping. There is some force that prevents us from experiencing those infinities at once. Imagine if we could, ---we might go insane if the floodgates of reality collapsed or opened, releasing a storm of experiences from all universes. Insanity. Like the kind when they opened the Ark in Raiders of the Lost Ark --but infinitely worse. Heads 'sploding kinda stuff. Thus, for our own sakes, we are limited to this one reality.

HOWEVER... perhaps meditation, astral projection, state-altering drugs, etc. are avenues to nearby dimensions (not all of them, just one or two nearby ones). Read Graham Hancock's "Supernatural" for a study into South American state-altering substances that open avenues to new, dimensional vistas. Very interesting. Perhaps this is why TPTB have ensured that these substances have been made illegal, in that they open our minds to higher states of awareness and consciousness. If nothing else, read a review on Graham's book. It's thought provoking.

yes but you're only observing something based on events preceding - so there's only ever one observation

Originally posted by tappy
reply to post by GhostLancer

 

Wow, excellent post OP, star and flag for you

Very well thought out and interesting to read.

Thank you.

Originally posted by tappy
I had not, however, thought about the possibility of being able to control the reality one ends up in, in the way you suggest - its a fascinating concept. Does this mean that if a person focuses on the things they don't have "I wish I had a nice house, I wish I had a better job, etc" that this becomes your reality, because its all you focus on?

Sort of. It's not just thinking about having those things, but deciding to take action necessary to achieve/earn those things. For example, I want to meet the Lady of My Dreams. I might be destined to meet her, but Destiny needs help. That help comes in the form of my making a decision to exercise, get out into the world, smile, try to be more of an engaging person, --improve myself in every way possible and then get out there into the world. I won't meet her playing World of Warcraft or lounging in front of the TV. Destiny needs help. Destiny needs us to decide to take action to effect it. In the end, was it destiny at all, or was it decision?

Originally posted by tappy
So, to change your reality, you have to think about the things you do want, not the things you don't want? Am I understanding correctly? If so I like that idea.

For me, positive thinking is multitudes more powerful than negative ones. In fact, by saying to yourself every free moment, "I don't want to get hurt mountain climbing" (because you are a mountain climber) will likely cause the result you fear. It is far more beneficial to say, "I will climb mountains safely." It is very similar to the book, "The Secret" and "The Laws of Attraction" which state that what you send out into the world is what you will get back, possibly amplified.

Originally posted by tappy
One thing I've always thought of about the whole multiple realities thing though, is at what point do the realities branch off - only at 'big' moments in your life, or tiny little ones? It's one of those things that if I think about for too long, my brain hurts

Yeah, I agree: both. Small moments can be HUGE, like when I was holding my 1.5 year-old daughter in my arms watching the sunset at the beach a few months ago. I suddenly had the feeling of an enormous moment fall over the entire thing, like when a camera focuses on a moment in the movie and the cinematography is quite stunning and epic, the lighting is perfect, the music is at a dramatic crescendo... It was one of those moments, yet it was a simple, small moment that I know --for some yet unrevealed reason-- was HUGE and will be HUGE in my life in this reality. And then there are truly grand moments like births, marriages, birthdays, deaths, graduations and commencements... And really, each of our big milestone moments documents a transition, and in that sense, all big moments are really the same: we transition into life (birth), we live life (birthdays), we become adults (high school graduation), we love (marriage)... and we pass on as our leaf meets the Autumn breeze (death) and transition into the realm of memory and the intangible.

Originally posted by tappy
Also to consider is the fact that so many decisions one can make in one's life, large and small, can have knock-on effects years down the line, in a way that one might not realise they are related, you know? So while it's easy to think "if only I'd done such and such, I'd now be in a better life" (for example), its by no means as straight forward as that as there could have been a multitude of other decisions / branches off in the meantime. (hope that made sense)

You are very right. And, the little things we do, such as holding the door for someone or giving up a chair for the elderly/pregnant, smiling at someone and saying hello... can set into motion a chain events that might improve your current reality. I call it REALITY-SHAPING. Do good things, little, medium --huge, and it comes back to you in ways you will never know. Do bad things... and it comes back to you amplified as well.

Originally posted by tappy
Anyway thanks for making this thread OP, its nice to read a discussion about one of my favourite subjects.

You're very welcome. I enjoy these topics likewise. And I think our realities just became a little better.

Very thought provoking thread. A great fictional novel based on this concept is "From the corner of his eye" by Dean Koontz. The eerie thing is, the cover of the book has a shadow standing in a heavily branched tree.