Best martial art for survival when the brown stuff starts flying around

There is nothing glorious about fighting or armed combat. War and fighting just lead to pain and suffering for one or both sides. Most of the posters here have never seen people die in front of their faces or been in combat. Up close, it is a terrible thing to witness, trust me.

Broken bodies, people crying, shouting for loved ones/mother. The smell, everything, it is hellish.
I would wish it on no-one. To all you gung ho wannabe Rambos out there, please think twice before willingly going into combat. If you can avoid a fight, AVIOD IT.

It does not matter if you lose face, better that than losing an arm/leg/eye or life.

I wonder who would win if all you; martial art experts met up in a SHTF scenario and fought for your lives.
Because in a SHTF fight for your life, there will be only one left alive.
But you all talk like you would be the winner.

The way i see it, only one of you is telling the truth. Only one of you will be standing.
The rest of you will be dead.

You people have no idea about what it takes to survive a aggressive environment.

You people are the aggressive environment all the other have to fight.

Originally posted by TheDevilOfLies

Originally posted by NadaCambia

Originally posted by JAGx1981
I used to be a boxer I was 2-0 1 KO, I was with one of my friends a few months ago on ESPN 2 Friday night fights to help him out, although he lost. I got out of it cause I found my calling in a different arena of life and the knockout I had on someone made me feel to bad cause he was hurt, it wasn't for me.


On Martials arts you can't go wrong really in the end. I am a 3rd degree blackbelt in Shotokan my brother a 8th, Thats my choice mixed with boxing and I dabble with a little of everything, I actually call my style '' The universal adaptive '' . lol

I think Martial arts is there for a purpose alot of people overlook, yes it's for self defense, but in the end once you climb the ladder in belts, you find it's more of self discipline.

In any fight even if you have a 10 th degree black belt in ANYTHING, you will get your ass whipped if you cannot control the arts between the ears. Martial arts can only take you so far. All in the mind my friends.

edit on 29-5-2011 by JAGx1981 because: (no reason given)

edit on 29-5-2011 by JAGx1981 because: spelling error

I think that's something a lot of people overlook. The physical of any discipline can be taught, with relative ease. It's the mental that's the main barrier.

It's my opinion that most people practicing Martial Arts are competent in street fights, not because of any physical superiority or trained physical ability - Rather the mental ability to stay composed. 98%(I made this up) of people fight on adrenaline, if you can control yourself and consciously do battle you're likely to pick apart a windmilling drunkard with relative ease.

In contrast, you can have all the belts in the world and come undone in a real life situation if the adrenaline and anxiety takes over. And it takes over alot more people than not, even trained athletes. If you ever watch out of the ring brawls and fights at press conferences or w/e between professional fighters, notice their technique goes out the window and they swing haymakers like lunatics. That's the adrenaline and anxiety.

Also some guys are just born to fight and some not. An athlete for example is always going to have a natural advantage over anyone else. A big guy over a small guy, no matter how much my fellow midgets like to protest the fact.

I reckon a Buddhist Monk with natural athleticism and combat training could take apart most people

i agree with everything you say except about size

i have seen many big men fall hard to people you would think you should have no fear of

Of course there's exceptions but in general terms a big man beats a small man. That's been a proven fact for a while now, there's not much to be disagreed with. 2 guys of the same training with the same skill, carbon copies for all but size - The big guy wins. Styles make fights and there are exceptions, but in general small guys will lose a fight against an equally skilled big guy. Small guys have less power, physically they're inferior.

Anyone who disagrees with that must be quite insecure. I mean I'm only 5'11 so it's not like I'm tooting my own horn. I just know a 6'4 version of me would kick my ass And a 5'6 version of me would get destroyed by me.

Originally posted by v1rtu0s0
reply to post by JeepOrDie

 

Anecdotal stories are great, but I look at things from the perspective of science.


Anyone can groin strike or eye gouge. Training to do this has very limited return. That's why you learn a system that enables you to become well rounded and prepared for anything.


There are too many Mc Dojo's and classical styles that focus on Kata's instead of applicability.

False. There are different levels to eye gouging. The common man doesn't know about rubbing Deep Heat on his hands and smearing it in somebodies eye. That's a learned technique, only realised through a strict schedule of Rugby

Originally posted by soconfused
Kali's knife fighting hands down. I don't care what martial arts you practice Kali's knife fighting will kill you plain and simple. Don't believe me? Find a Kali expert and give him a knife and then try to take him down. You would be murdered on the spot!!! It's the real deal when it comes to real combat.

Yep. The "Shock and Awe" knife fighting discipline as seen on The Men Who Stare at Goats is worth looking at too

Originally posted by MiloNickels
reply to post by OoohLaDeDa

 

I, personally practice a mixture of the following arts (for the stated reasons):

-Maui Thai for outside striking and knees/elbows from inside a clinch.
-Traditional boxing - mostly for combinations and stand up defense.
-Scholastic style wrestling (I would have preferred Greco Roman, but I wrestled in high school and don't have a time machine)
-Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. If it goes to the ground you gotta understand positional dominance, and it doesn't hurt to know how to choke people out, or injure their limbs. Although BJJ is great on mats, though, I'd be a little reluctant to use it on a hard surface, and certainly never try to use it if I'm outnumbered. When you're outnumbered, the ground is the LAST place you want to be.

It's best to know a combination of styles. I'd rather be decent at everything than amazing at any one style. The vast majority of the population doesn't train to fight, so you're likely to have an advantage anyhow. Being well rounded allows you to take the fight where you are most likely to have an advantage. If you are getting beat up on your feet, you can decide to take it down...and (since you're opponent is decent on the feet, he probably isn't well rounded enough to hang with you on the ground).

My best advice, though: avoid fighting whenever you can--particularly in crowds where you can get blind-sided or gang-beat. Also, knowing how to fight does very little to help you if your opponent has weapons. Despite what happens in the movies...very few people, no matter how skilled, can realistically win a fight where they are outnumbered or where their opponent has a weapon. Best rule of thumb... if you are alone, and see a crowd of youths or a potential threat in front of you, go a different way.

We salute you ! You have the right mentality.
This is one of the reasons that I learn all the best simple effective moves from the different martial arts. I am not a black belt nor a master of any of those that I learn from a young age. It is fortunate for me that I have many friends who are martial art teachers.

Originally posted by spy66
I wonder who would win if all you; martial art experts met up in a SHTF scenario and fought for your lives.
Because in a SHTF fight for your life, there will be only one left alive.
But you all talk like you would be the winner.

The way i see it, only one of you is telling the truth. Only one of you will be standing.
The rest of you will be dead.

You people have no idea about what it takes to survive a aggressive environment.

You people are the aggressive environment all the other have to fight.

edit on 27.06.08 by spy66 because: (no reason given)

Some kind of Battle Royale scenario.....

www.imdb.com...



Could be interesting I guess, for arguments sake, if you were all in this position. I wonder who would make it.

This is more than just putting one martial art against eh other. In a shtf situation, you will have one on one situations, against armed and unarmed men. In those situatios, i would prefer krav maga. You will never see krav maga in UFC because its considered dirty for tournaments, but its downright brutal and effective against armed and unarmed opponents.

Now, for a crowd control situation, you need something that helps you fighting against multiple targets. I would mix muay thai for unarmed combat with ninjutsu ornny other martial art focused on your armed combat. Because when shtf you will be wielding a baseball bat, a knife, or whatever to defend yourself and you better know how to use it.

I can give u a tip on how to swing the baseball bat to defend yourself. Never hold it at the end. Thats for playing baseball. When you are using it to hit people with, you hold it around the middle, because you can hit with shorter arcs and it allows you shrter momentums to hit again and again. At least thats what my cousin told me years ago, when he was a troublemaker and ud to carry two baseball bats in his car. One for him and another for his friend.

Bt beside all that, you will need guns. I dont think i would care for illegality of owning a gun when the shtf. Herre in Brazil you can get one if you have a permit. But a lot of people have guns even without having a permit, so...

I would argue for Aikido, as it has the longest reward, that is to say, it's techniques will serve you into old age. Other arts are suited for the young, as with O'sensei who in his youth was a hard-as-nails ju-jitsu and kendo practioner, but with age, he softened and yet grew stronger.

Aging, is the primary death of man. Heart attack and broken hip at age 70 gets people these days. In the old days of Asia, you's not live to that age without respect for oldsters, which they typically have in Asia, so they preserve their oldsters, and yet, if it were just combat, why, I think it would be very difficult for some 60-year old Karate or Tae Kwon Do artist to deliver crippling punches? Oh sure someone will respond vis "no way man my sensei is 90 and he breaks bricks!" Okay fine. But you see my argument I think: Aikido preserves both combatants.

Now then you may ask, "Why should I care to preserve my attacker?" Therein lies the true beauty of Aikido, or as I'd call it, "The art of peaceful resolution with force". But anybody with true budo already knows the ethic as stated in that great Bruce Lee TV show "Kung Fu" where the buddhist monk ethos is stated, "Kill not, where maiming is enough. Maim not, when wounding is enough. Wound not, when holding is enough." ...True budo is understood across all arts.

While it is true, that at times, in a "SHTF" situation, one imagines oneself delivering hard kicks and punches and bashing in faces of the enemy, more likely than not, that is a false projection of what future combat will be like. In fact, humans will be asked to get more intimate when SHTF. When you all live in a farm or ranch where you are "surviving" and one dude gets jealous for some other dude's woman, are you going to break someone's jaw to resolve it? And when there's no doctor, that'll potentially make every such wound, a deathly one. And in fact, when SHTF, humans will be the best resource, for each other. That's the truth. So learning to hold, is to preserve life.

There is a great Aikidoka, named Terry Dobson I believe, and he wrote some great stuff on how words are the ultimate Aikido. Any fight is typically preceded by words, and therein lies the trick. We see this in for example the film "True Grit" where Marshall Cogburn is describing Old West Style Conflict when he is in court, and defending himself against the idea that he ambushed his bounty:

Step One: Dudes Talk
Step Two: Dudes Get Upset
Step Three: Everybody starts shootin'

So I think here is a metaphor for my argument as well: Even in the "SHTF" days of Rooster Cogburn (post Civil War) there had to be respect for life. If you abush someone, then eventually you will be having your neck lengthened via cordage. There will be justice of some kind and in combat, preservation of life, is always the superior way.

Even the natives understood this of course as we see some tribes used the coo-stick to smack the enemy and thereby (maybe) preserve him. And there would be your modern analogy for modern hand-to-hand combat, for what is the closed fist, but a coo-stick? One can only do so much with it. However, if one unclenches the fist, one can grapple.

So then if one grapples, one binds closer to the enemy, for a moment as in the dance of Aikido, or for hours on the ground like two Olympian wrestles as in the marathon of one-on-one ju jitsu (early UFCs were dominated by Gracie style/Romanesque fighting).

So the arguement for better grappling, is really the only place to end up. Punching and kicking are always possible, any Aikidoka can shift their elbow a centimeter to the left or right and break your face, but that is not the art. The art is not to break your face or neck, but instead to have you end up up held, unable to get away, and wondering why you attacked in the first place!

And anyway, as mentioned, it is in the first moments of conflict when WORDS are the weapons, that anything thereafter transpires. Okay there are the jailhouse or back-alley ambush style scenario where you have to swing at everyone and just survive, but those are rare. Typically talking precedes fighting. Therefore, learn words before you ever learn to kick. Or else the only words you'll end up hearing (eventually) will be your own voice saying "HELP ME JESUS!" while ten dudes jump on your head. Better to defuse, than to ignite, would be my advice for when human relations get tighter and rougher as in SHTF scenario.

reply to post by OoohLaDeDa


My apologies to anyone on here that may have been upset by any posts under my name. I left my profile up and my nephew decided to take full advantage of it. I have only made it to the 7th page, but from what I can see, he did a nice job of pissing people off. Once again, my apologies.
Now I have to go have a discussion about how to survive to be 22....

Originally posted by smallpeeps


While it is true, that at times, in a "SHTF" situation, one imagines oneself delivering hard kicks and punches and bashing in faces of the enemy, more likely than not, that is a false projection of what future combat will be like. In fact, humans will be asked to get more intimate when SHTF. When you all live in a farm or ranch where you are "surviving" and one dude gets jealous for some other dude's woman, are you going to break someone's jaw to resolve it? And when there's no doctor, that'll potentially make every such wound, a deathly one. And in fact, when SHTF, humans will be the best resource, for each other. That's the truth. So learning to hold, is to preserve life.

I like this, a very good point and aproaching the subject from an alternative point of view. We could very well be dependent on one another and you make a strong argument for the use of non lethal force.
Another point that I have considered is that of throws from arts like aikido etc. Whilst many trained practitioners will know how to roll and break fall, if you have the ability to throw someone, most likely its going to be on a hard surface, and that in itself could very well put them out of the fight before it goes further. I think I might be correct in assuming aikido uses the oppenents force against them, so I guess they reap what the sow.
My only problem with aikido, is believing it works. Whenever I see vids of it being performed it looks staged, like they are literally throwing themselves. I guess I might have to check it out in person.

Originally posted by OoohLaDeDa

Originally posted by smallpeeps
[...] So learning to hold, is to preserve life.

[...] My only problem with aikido, is believing it works. Whenever I see vids of it being performed it looks staged, like they are literally throwing themselves. I guess I might have to check it out in person.

Yes I would say wholeheartedly for you to spend time in the Aikido dojo, but not to learn "victory", for that is a trick. Victory does not exist. Oh sure in this UFC match or that one, there is "victory", but really now, can we call Mike Tyson, a victor? No, we cannot. He is a thug. Same with Brock Lesnar, can we call him a victor? Not in the true sense of budo so far as I can see, these are fighters, who always lose in the long run, because fighter becomes old-fighter who gets destroyed by young fighter. Therefore, fighting does not a priori produce victory.

Victory as a concept, exists with the sun. If victory is not yours yet, you have only the length of the day, to gain victory. Or shall the Royce Gracie sleep on the floor with his opponent? Shall attacker and combatant snuggle in sleep, in the Gracie guard, then resume fighting as they awaken during the night, as with Jacob and the Angel? Haha, in the end, it always ends up with some stupid joint dislocation, and really even as the angel dislocates Jacob's hip, he still gives Jacob the victory out of proper respect. But Jake was ruined for life, from a physical perspective, he was crippled thereafter. Still he had a hot wife so that eases the pain of being bedridden I guess, haha --Hey we've got many analogues for SHTF so you can choose Jacob of the bible or Rooster Cogburn, but you will see that what I am saying rings true.

So why practice Aikido if "victory" is not the objective? Answer is simple: The Aikidoka knows that combat never ends, victory is only death. Therefore do we see the metamorphosis of O'sensei from Samurai (death before dishonor) into Aikidoka (life before dishonor). So the goal is honor, not "victory" in the sense of true budo.

As for "Does Aikido work?" Yes, it does, but you may never see it. I spent roughly two years studying maybe ten hours a week at best and only achieved the lowest rank, that of sixth-kyu. Yet testing for rank is not important to me. And yet, I feel myself called to make time in my life to return to seek 5th kyu if only to observe the Aikidoka black belts, who are some of the most grounded and centered humans I have known. If there is a belt that has merit on Earth, it is the idea of spending ten years and 1000s hours letting your own students throw YOU around the place. That is the Aikido black belt: They love getting thrown around by their students, because only then can the student learn the art of compassion.

So does Aikido work? Yes, it is impossible to interact with the Aikido black belts and not to feel affected by the compassion of their art.

Now of course there are are sides to everything, so one man will step forward and say "Ah yes but what about Steven Seagal?" Well he is of course just like Aikido Elvis, so it's as simple as that. Elvis is not meant to be everyman, and when we observe TCB matrial arts, we see Elvis delivering ferocious kicks and punches. Similarly, some Aikido dudes want to display the same "effectiveness" at Taking Care of Business, let's say. So Seagal has my respect but that's not Aikido. If you look closely you'll see that he does try to display true budo, I do like him as a man, but I'd like better films which shows the philosophy about Aikido. I have a script in mind and could write it in 60 days if someone wants to U2U me and offer a writer's advance.

Oh and I should also speak to the event where Gene Coon (as I recall) wrist-locked Seagal which is a sneaky tactic to take a handshake and reverse it, then as I recall he choked Seagal out, which is again, a weak, pathetic finish when compared to the sublime immobilizations of Aikido. Choking out is low-tech. So yes if you crave "victory" like Gene Coon and similar fighters, then fighting cheap and using tricks, can help you to humiliate your opponent and prove your sneakiness. If he doesn't have a gun or friends who will stomp you, then sure being a rat bastard might give you "victory".

Again, this makes my point about words preceding most fights because Gene Coon will use words to lull you to sleep and shake your hand, whereas the Terry Dobson Aikidoka will use words so that there never is any fight at all. Do you call a lack of a fight, a victory? Hmm.

In the end, talking only goes so far, and then I would still say that Aikido is superior since it is the best way for all ages (young and old) to learn

A: how to collide with the ground correctly, aka FALL, and
B: How to help the attacker to not fall, or to fall where you want him to fall.

Finally I will make my point via Hollywodd movies: In the recent A Team movie we see a Bruce Lee type dude, the guy who plays Mr T in the movie, is a real UFC bruiser, can't recall his name, but he did good because the movie is completely awesome. But notice as he takes a vow of peace and then breaks it by using a simple tactic known in the WWF as the "piledriver". Yes of course in the WWF they used to snug up all close with the guy and then gently drop him on his head, but in the scene at the end of the A Team, dude gets lifted up and thrown down directly onto his head: There is not to many ways out when a person can lift you up and accelerate your head into the ground. So In the end, that is the UFC for you: Dude's aim for victory and often it comes by lifting and dropping the guy.

But in Aikido, you don't lift the guy, just drop him in a certain fashion. It is made for small people being attacked by huge goombah who needs help with his violent behavior. The attacker needs to learn that ground can be used as a weapon or ally by either fighter.

If the Aikidoka faces B. A. Baracus, they would face a tough challenge because that dude can fight and he seeks "victory" by knowing quickly how to kill you with his strengths like taking you off your feet, and being all frenzy-aggressive and reversing stuff, etc.

As a low ranking Aikido practicioner in that case I would probably try to have some blowfish poison ready or even tanto or something like the fight scene at the end of Dune. Gotta plan ahead.

If you have to train to defend yourself,your in deep trouble.

Originally posted by brindle
If you have to train to defend yourself,your in deep trouble.

If you desire to train in order to be able to defend yourself, you will be more able to get out of trouble.

If you have to defend yourself and dont know how to do it, THEN you are in deep trouble.

Originally posted by henriquefd

Originally posted by brindle
If you have to train to defend yourself,your in deep trouble.

If you desire to train in order to be able to defend yourself, you will be more able to get out of trouble.

If you have to defend yourself and dont know how to do it, THEN you are in deep trouble.

If you have to defend your self, you have don a piss poor job of being aware of your environment in the first place.
No wonder you have to learn how to fight.

If you dont know how to evaluate the environment your are in or entering into. How in the hell will you know if something is up?
You wouldn't be able to figure out that you are a potential target until you are being attacked.

Most of you fighters are not talking about defencive actions, but having the skills to enter a hostile environment and being able to fight back.

But if you dont have the skills to spot a mob, you have put your self in a world of hurt. Because the mob is very good at choosing their targets and when to engage it. All it takes is one hit and its all over.

reply to post by shinobieye


You are not invulnerable I can hit you once every time.Just once,hence my question about Dim Mak.
I have studied all I can about Ninjutsu it appears to have come by Chinese influences but Japan has taken it beyond way beyond its origins.
I deeply respect your study and do not seek to diminish it in any way.

reply to post by JayFlores

Well have you joined a service?
otherwise you are a waste of time a tough guy who will die in a bar.

Originally posted by OoohLaDeDa
What do you reckon?
Wing chun?
Krav Magra?
Boxing?
Tai Chi?

Although USA and Canada can have guns, other countries wont have the luxury of having these to defend ourselves with. Assuming someone starts training now, which is the best to learn to protect our famillies and pets?

As someone who has trained in several diffrent martial arts for more than 20 years and have been teaching for over ten years,I think i have some knowledge on the subject.
First of all i have to agree with many of the posts in this thread.Its not the man in the fight,its the fight in the man.you can(in fact i have)spend months/years teaching techniques to students but when it comes to the fight if your not up for it,your not up for it fullstop.
Now as for your question,first you have to separate fighting from sport,ill assume we all know the diffrence.
Tai chi; outside of china there are only a handfull of people who are able to teach tai chi as a fighting art and even if you are lucky enough to find one of them it takes years to reach a compitent level.

Boxing; Take the gloves of a boxer and his hands are vicious but boxers hurt there hands all the time,whith no gloves and all those head shots his hands wont last long at all.Boxers only have hands and against a good fighter hands alone will not be enough.This is the problem with sport.

Krav magra; Like it a lot even though its just sloppy wing chun.The best thing about it is you can learn to fight with it in weeks,you wont be a master but you will be a better fighter.a word of warning or should i say a reality check ,taking a weapon of someone is not easy and takes a lot of practice and as a rule of thumb if you are fighting against a knife,you ARE going to get cut.

Thai boxing; A terrificly destructive fighting art but its too destructive on the practitioners own body.take the gloves of and you have the same problem as a boxer plus broken toes,feet and damaged hips from hyper-extention during big kicks.Have you ever seen anyone over the age of 40 still fighting with it?There may be but there as rare as rockin horse poo.

Wing chun; A rounded fighting art which doesnt relly on strength or size(allthough they do help if you have them) you dont hit heads, you allways aim for the throat,soft bits dont hurt hands.wc uses all available weapons of the body not just hands and it has two hand held weapons, the long pole and the wing chun knives.
The long pole is known as the mother of all long weapons,learn this and the principals fit with any pole/staff weapon.
The knives are the most efficient edge'd weapon system there is.
With wc you can learn to fight in six weeks again you wont be a master but you will be a much better all round fighter.
close quarter/anti-grapple and best of all no rules except finnish it quick so in my opinion wing chun is the answer to your question.

After 25 years in the bar biz
several of them be side an armed forces base...
my preferance is aido, win chun...defendo...
buggs bunny....get the other guy to beat himself up

a sport is not always the art you need...
go with what works for you...

and don't try grapppling in a slush filled parking lot..
you won't be liking the result of that action


PS
a good stave is a good personal item to have for lots of reason only one of which is for combat

Originally posted by marvinthemartian

Originally posted by OoohLaDeDa
close quarter/anti-grapple and best of all no rules except finnish it quick so in my opinion wing chun is the answer to your question.

I agree with everyone who thinks grappling is a terrible form of self defense...