Canadian Couple Decides to Raise 'Genderless' Baby

This is a tricky one particularly because it mixes gender issues with parenting issues.

My understanding is that parents ultimately buy the clothes. They are to guide children.

Like every parent -- they will reap what they sow...good or bad.

I will read up on them. I have the Toronto newspaper. It's a start.

Some traditional gender clothes and toys do serve a societal purpose.

Dolls for girls to want to have families. Guns for men to kill each other.

Is this good or bad? Depends how the parent applies the toys as tools.

Left unattended a little girl may develop an unhealthy body image depending on what dolls she is exposed to. Or she may learn to be a caring, intelligent mother.

A young man with a toy pistol can have fun imagining a wild west or space ship shoot out. Or enjoy walking up to old ladies and pulling the toy on her to scare her.

I think some toys and gender specific North American clothing standards should at least be encouraged.

If you don't know your child good enough to figure out she likes short hair or boxing and your son is a ballet dancer and wears braided hair, and adjust your style accordingly, than you're already not paying attention. I personally think those skills/sports/hairstyles are cool no matter what the sex is of the kid.

The key is to use the societal NORMS as a BASE to RAISE YOUR CHILD.

Branch off from there based on what you observe your child's personality as it begins to shape.

He wants full make up and lipstick at four -- everyday!

Why not?! Let him decide.

Why don't you give him your credit card while you're at it.

Let him decide.

Utopia is finally here.

Wow, I find some of the comments here just astonishing. To me this is just an issue of personal choice, and frankly, not the business of anyone else but the family's. Sometimes I forget that the vast majority of the country does not live in a place like I do where we have people of all differences, and are accepting and appreciative of people for who they are...neither do we shun them nor call them "freaks". Coincidentally people here advocating for strict gender roles, just to put it out there, that forcing both men and women to conform to strict societal gender roles and not allowing for personal freedom of self-determination (think some of the middle eastern theocratic nations) is one of the "14 defining characteristics of Fascism"

The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

Source

It's not intended to call other people fascists, however it is to point out that there is a fine line here and those advocating that this family should be arrested for child abuse and essentially forced to raise their family the "traditional proper way" (with traditional gender roles), is certainly straying into this territory. Essentially what I'm saying is, just because you disagree with this family's parenting methods does not mean you get to accuse them of child abuse and have them arrested so they can be compelled to conform to the parenting methods that you personally approve of. Just because you disagree with what other people do, does not mean you can force your rules and morals onto other people and other families. They are not hurting anyone else...leave them alone, it is not for you to judge, make wild accusations or call their 4 month old baby and other young children "freaks".

Another point, no where in any of these articles does it talk about the parents "forcing" the child to conform to any specific gender role...nor does it say that they are refusing to tell the child what gender it it. They are merely deciding NOT to force specific gender roles on the child by forcing him/her to to do things like wear dresses or play with trucks. Society as it is, in general currently does force either a "male" or "female" gender role on children since they are very young, many children can find this stifling to be told that they can't do a certain activity or play with a certain toy because it's "not manly" or "not ladylike". However, most parents still end up giving little Jane dolls to play with and little Johnny trucks and the children are then often admonished when they are seen or expressing interest in a differently gendered toy or activity. For example, even though little Johnny might love to play dress up and dance, he will generally be admonished for it and told that it's too "girly". Similarly little Jane likes to play in the mud and collect insects, and so she will also be admonished and told that this is not how "proper little ladies" behave." In my view, this is unfortunate because the child is not being allowed to be freely expressive of oneself, however this is how society has worked for hundreds of years, and it's still how society and parents enforce traditional gender roles starting in infancy. The difference here is, these parents are saying, "Hey Storm, which would you like to play with, the truck or the doll?" and "would rather wear pants or a dress, whatever you feel more comfortable is fine with us"...and letting the child choose for itself. They are allowing the child to freely express itself and freely engage in the activities and interests that it finds most fun and appealing regardless of whether it's a "boy activity" or "girl activity"...they are giving their child MORE freedom of choice.

Honestly, I don't see how anyone can rationalize that giving a child the freedom to express oneself is "abuse". For everyone here advocating for strict adherence to gender roles would you say that my parents were "abusing" me by allowing me to play with whatever toys I liked the best despite the fact that they were not "traditional" toys for my gender? Do you even understand what constitutes "abuse"? Just because you might feel traditional gender roles are important for your family, does not mean another family has to raise their kids according to how you would. In calling it "abuse" you are either seriously misunderstanding the story here (again, there is no "forcing" of anything on on anyone), or you somehow feel threatened by anything that falls outside traditional gender roles, which, by the way could include things like "women who have careers instead of being home-makers", "girls who like to play with trucks, cars, etc.", "husbands who stay home with the kids instead of their wives"...and so on. In case you haven't noticed, our society doesn't place as big an importance on traditional gender roles any more...and if anything this allows people MORE freedom of expression and individuality, NOT less. However there are still many people, even in modern America, as evidenced by the many alarmist comments on this thread, who feel threatened by anything that doesn't fit neatly into traditional compartmentalized boxes.

I sometimes forget that many people DO see the world in blacks and whites, good vs evil, left vs right, "your either with us or against us", male vs female etc., as opposed to shades of grey and nuances. From the perspective that I'm coming from, it's actually rather shocking to me that many people on this thread have the opinion that parents who refuse to force traditional gender roles are being "abusive", whereas I see this as an issue of "freedom to be oneself"...these parents are simply refusing to "force" anything on their child and instead, are allowing him/her to decide naturally; the freedom to decide for oneself. Why some people would consider giving someone more freedom of choice to be "abuse" is beyond me, other than the fact that some people may feel threatened by anything that is different or breaks from tradition, nay, perhaps this is what they mean when they say "they hate us for our freedoms"?.

But again, just take a look at some of the societies that still do place a high importance and enforcement on traditional gender roles...if you are someone who values freedom and individuality, you might want to rethink a position that is more in line with some of the repressive theocratic societies, enforcement of and strict adherence to gender roles are highly valued in places like Saudi Arabia and Iran versus the modern democracies of Europe & N. America that have for the past several decades been moving away from traditional gender roles towards more self-determination and individual choice...which has also coincided with more equality to women, gays, transgender, minorities etc. All of which I think is a good thing. It's not the government's job to enforce gender roles on individuals in a democratic free society, likewise it's certainly not in the purveyance of individuals to be telling other individuals how to live their lives and raise their families...you may not personally agree with it, but it's still their choice, and thus, none of your business.

reply to post by RUSSO


I find this to be one of the more interesting stories I heard in a while. It will be very difficult for these parents to raise this child genderless.
1. The child's sex will eventually be known and then people will probably treat him/her accordingly to how they were raised a male/female should be treated.
2. The children mimic their parents. If the child see's that it ha parts like mommy it will mimic its mother and if she happens to be feminine chances are the "girl" will be feminine.

This experiment ( well I do not feel children should be used as an experiment) has to many variables and the only way to raise a genderless child is to be genderless ones self and live in a genderless society which we do not.

Originally posted by BarmyBilly
You are what you are male female black asian white whatever, we can't pick and choose, i feel sorry for this child a little bit because i have a feeling that once he/she reaches the teen years there will be friction between child and parents if they go ahead and do this.

They are not saying "you can be a female or male", genetilia doesn't lie obviously. They simply aren't "mentally grooming" the child for one particular gender. I myself was mentally groomed to be a male, but I've never been one to follow the crowd. I am a lot like a female in many aspects (mentally), but I am a lot like a male in many aspects too. Just because I was born with a penis does not mean I should be raised how any typical boy should be raised. There is no perfect method, just guidelines of society, and society is outstandingly dumb as a whole imo. Free thinking parents like this who break free of the mainstream shouldn't be criticized, their children will avoid early indoctrination and the shackles of social norms. It will give them an enhanced ability to analyze society and social conditioning from a less bias perspective. Good on them.

reply to post by RUSSO

poor kid

reply to post by RUSSO


These people are utterly stupid! The only time that this irrational behavior is acceptable is when the child is born hermaphrodite. In that case I would even encourage it!

We are what we are physically and the parents should only be encouraging the child who they want to be inside. Sex is defined. I can't help that it will cause some sort of problems in later life. These morons are taking a big risk trying! It's bordering on child abuse!

When my son was little I let him play with dolls and other "female" toys, he is straight, married, and has a son. We didn't force maleness on him. Now they live with us and their son has his own little kitchen set, but also likes to help cook. He watches a lot of the male type cartoons, but also loves Dora, Strawberry Shortcake, and most of all, the Powderpuff Girls (of the girl cartoons). He loves sports and the older he gets the more he prefers the boy type toys, but he still will play with his girl stuff from time to time.

He is almost 4 now. He is very attracted to females, so the girl toys didn't turn him gay if that is what some of you are worried about. He is not being abused by us letting him have female things to play with. He has no desire to wear dresses, but he does love the color pink. We don't tell him that something is for boys or girls only.

Maybe if more boys were allowed to play with dolls as small children they wouldn't find it so easy to kill people in war. Maybe they would tell the so called leaders to go do their own killing.

reply to post by ahimsa

He is almost 4 now. He is very attracted to females, so the girl toys didn't turn him gay if that is what some of you are worried about. He is not being abused by us letting him have female things to play with. He has no desire to wear dresses, but he does love the color pink. We don't tell him that something is for boys or girls only.

I think turning the kid gay may be a major worry for a lot of people here who think being gay is wrong or will endanger our virus-like species (snicker). And if he does want to wear a dress, there's no problem with that either. That recent story of a young boy wearing a dress to school to make a point (even if only about the school uniform) was a real inspiration to me. It gave me hope there are some young kids in the world who CAN think for themselves instead of simply following the crowd and becoming just another robot slave. Children who have the ability to exhibit high degrees of independent thought and out-of-the-box thinking at such an early age are destined to become something great.

Maybe if more boys were allowed to play with dolls as small children they wouldn't find it so easy to kill people in war. Maybe they would tell the so called leaders to go do their own killing.

Well said, I agree 100%. Break free my children!!! Don't become an instrument of death like the other carefully crafted robots.

If you get at male kid that is born with a deformed genitalia, it used to be common to castrate the kid and put them on hormone-replacements for the rest of their lives. The suicide-rate for the kids that has been put though this procedure is of course a lot higher then with other people. The reason the doctors did what they did, was that they thought that biological gender was a myth. There are huge biological differences between man and women, and forcing somebody to act like they are not wired to, will result in problems.

There are hermaphrodites as well. Some are even born with DNA that is hard to determine if it's male or female. Until now, it has been common to choose a gender for those kids. But, because of the suicide-risk associated with choosing the wrong alternative, it will actually make sense to raise the child so it's able to choose. Also, the surgical "fixing" of hermaphrodites might be more about the parents then the kids. And, again: Fixing might involve making those kids infertile.

I have been waiting for this to happen for a long time. Science has already explained that there are more then two sexes, but it's society that is not ready. Perhaps choosing an arbitrarily gender, mutilating them through surgery and making them infertile is not the way to go.

Originally posted by RUSSO

Canadian Couple Decides to Raise 'Genderless' Baby

myfoxchicago

A Canadian couple has decided to raise its four-month-old baby to be "genderless" to protect its right to choose its own sex, The Daily reported Tuesday.

While there is no biological ambiguity about Storm Witterick's genitalia, parents Kathy Witterick, 38, and David Stocker, 39, refuse to say whether the child is male or female.

The couple believes in giving the youngster the right to choose his or her own gender, free from the pressures of social norms.

"If you really want to get to know...

(visit the link for the full news article)

edit on 24-5-2011 by RUSSO because: (no reason given)

Shoot me down if i'm wrong but I can't help thinking this will cause problems for the poor kid in the long run? We are a gendered species, Male and Female, and in most it is what ultimately defines us.

What happens when the little guy/girl gets to school and has no gender idenity? How is He/She going to fit in? Have the parents raised their other children in the same way? There are just too many questions to do with the future well being of this child.

I suppose what I'm saying is that this poor kid is being used as an experiment, on a whim, by the Mum and Dad.
Personally I think this is wrong and Id be interested to see what social services, or the Canadian equivalent would have to say on the matter.

I wouldn't put my own kids through it that's for sure! For the child in question I see a life of uncertainty and bullying i'm afraid?

Say what you want about any issues you may have regarding rigidity of gender roles, but I am of the opinion that this is just disgusting. What are these people thinking?

Newsflash: You cannot choose your gender. You may have gender identity issues, but you cannot choose or change your gender. You cannot choose or change your baby's gender. If you're a male, you're a male. If you're a female, you're a female. End of story. Liberalism has truly gone too far.

Originally posted by Cuervo

Originally posted by TKDRL
reply to post by Cuervo

 

Gender roles are pretty important to most people. Most girls don't want a man that don't know how to be men. And vice versa. It is setting them up to be failures in life...

The importance placed on gender does more damage than people abandoning it. Gender roles are rubbish. "how to be men"? Can you read this all the way back from the 1800's?

Let's get something else straight. A girl wanting to drive a tractor is not a girl who wants to be a boy; she just wants to drive a tractor. The fact that people placed made-up assignments for genders to match up with certain toys or clothing is what caused the problem to begin with.

edit on 24-5-2011 by Cuervo because: (no reason given)

actually i've found, as i've come into adulthood, that i wish i had a lot more lessons on 'how to be a man' in my youth. there were a lot of areas of my life that i found lacking as i came into my late twenties. there is nothing wrong with traditional gender roles, the vast majority of society subscribes to them. we should acknowledge the truth in that.

reply to post by slowisfast


I blame it all on the arrogance of people, thinking they are above nature, instead of part of nature. Males are naturally supposed to have certain traits, women are naturally supposed to have certain traits. On the flip side, males and females do naturally share some traits, always have. I think our lazy, arrogant, over-reliant culture is a huge part of the problem. Males no longer feel the need to be able to defend themselves and their family, they have been brainwashed to think that is the police's job. Females no longer feel the need to nurture, that is what nannies and daycare are for.... No need to know how to grow and hunt food, that is what grocery stores are for. I think this will eventually be the cause of a huge die off of population. And I think it was planned that way. The erosion of basic traits, being replaced by laziness, stupidity, and materialism.

This is ridiculous.
So should everyone be able to pick what country they're born in? Maybe what race they're born as? Maybe people should be able to choose what color eyes they have too.

reply to post by RUSSO


Somehow I find this news to be a little tragic and strange. I don't see any problem with trans people and I actually find their stories interesting but this is just silly. Whats wrong with referring to the child's gender? What harm would it do? Are they going to dress the child in unisex clothes until its old enough(in their minds) to decide what it wants to be? Why not raise the child as normally as anyone else would do and IF if the trans indentity problem comes up accept it. But to raise the child with so many choices from a young age is strange to say the least.

Male and female are like yin and yang, dark and light; the one complements the other. Some people grow up with feelings that don't match their physiology and I believe it's important that they are listened to sympathetically and helped and supported in living their lives in whatever way suits them best.

I'm a man and not confused about my gender or sexuality, but I love to cook, I repair my own clothes when I need to, I'm not afraid to admit that I might cry occasionally, it's even happened sometimes because of an emotional film or distressing story in the news. I didn't need my parents to create an artificial cultural vacuum around me as a child in order for me to develop in this way.

I can't help feeling that this story is more about the parents than the children, it seems a little egotistical on their part, a bit like 'look at how socially progressive we are, aren't we great and so much better than other parents who brutally force their children to be little boys or girls'.

Some people just need to be special.

The brother Kio, Five, and Lion-o are the only others to know the gender

People who experiment with their children are asking for trouble in my opinion. Perhaps the parents should live as genderless adults for a week or two first, before they start to fool around with a child.

The father is obviously a closet homo with no idea of how to raise children, i feel so sorry for these children.
Never had a chance!

Originally posted by meeneecat
To me this is just an issue of personal choice, and frankly, not the business of anyone else but the family's.

I've heard this argument before, and it's flawed.

The way that someone raises their children is the business of everyone in the community and the wider society, as a whole. Childhood conditioning plays a huge part in how someone will turn out as an adult, and their decisions and actions in society will be hugely influenced by the way that they were raised.

Parents have a responsibility and duty to bring up their children in a way that gives them a fair chance in life and a way that makes them compatible with the general norms of the society that they are raised in.

Parents don't own their children. They don't have an innate, unchallengable right to infect their children with whatever capricious whim takes their fancy, nor do they have an innate, unchallengable right to poison their children's minds with delusional claptrap that does nothing but boost the ego of the parents.

It's not a ''personal choice'' for a parent to sexually or physically abuse a child, and it certainly shouldn't be a personal choice for them to emotionally abuse them, either.

Raising a child to be genderless in a non-accepting society is emotional abuse.

Originally posted by meeneecat
Sometimes I forget that the vast majority of the country does not live in a place like I do where we have people of all differences, and are accepting and appreciative of people for who they are...neither do we shun them nor call them "freaks".

Sadly, the couple in this story also apparently share your forgetfulness.

There choice will be accepted and tolerated from their New-Age, neo-hippie family and friends, but, as you say, the vast majority of people do not live in a fantasy, make-believe world and are not so tolerant to those who stick out like a saw-thumb.

These children will be shunned by most of their peers, they'll have trouble getting dates and they'll be the targets of overt physical and verbal aggression from other children and adults.

Believe me, when they step into the big, bad real-world, being called a ''freak'' will be one of the milder forms of hostility and social exclusion that they will receive...

Originally posted by meeneecat
Just because you disagree with what other people do, does not mean you can force your rules and morals onto other people and other families.

Of course you force rules and morals onto other people. That's kind of how societies generally work.

We force people not to sexually, physically or emotionally abuse their children. These ''parents'' are emotionally abusing their children in the interests of a warped social experiment that is driven by their deluded egos.

Originally posted by meeneecat
They are not hurting anyone else...leave them alone, it is not for you to judge, make wild accusations or call their 4 month old baby and other young children "freaks".

They are hurting other people. They are - perhaps irreparably - emotionally damaging their children by wilfully turning them into freaks.

How can it not be hurting them to condemn them to a childhood of social exclusion in an inherently unfair, intolerant and unequal world ?

Originally posted by meeneecat
Another point, no where in any of these articles does it talk about the parents "forcing" the child to conform to any specific gender role...nor does it say that they are refusing to tell the child what gender it it. They are merely deciding NOT to force specific gender roles on the child by forcing him/her to to do things like wear dresses or play with trucks.

The ''parents'' are forcing their children to be gender-neutral.

Gender differences in clothes, colours, hairstyles and jewellery are all arbitrary. It stands to reason that, when unguided, young boys and girls aren't going to automatically pick what society deems as appropriate, gender-specific clothing or hairstyles.

In other words, they have no choice in being gender-neutral.

This is why it's so cruel what this couple are doing. These poor children are blissfully unaware of how other people will treat them because of their innocent fashion choices that their parents are forcing upon them.

Gender-specific fashion in society is extremely broad, so all it needs is for parents to gently guide there children towards wearing acceptable clothing for their gender, and they can be as creative as they like within that broad framework. It's not as if boys and girls are greatly limited or inhibited in what they can or can't wear.

Another huge problem in raising a child genderless is that you may create unnecessary gender identity problems for the children. If Storm is biologically male and grows up as a female ( which I'm pretty sure the ''parents'' are going to ''encourage'' him to do ), then he will probably start identifying with real females and have female role-models.

It's going to be very confusing for a child to be, in all intents and purposes, female, but with a fully working male anatomy. The irresponsible and twisted way that he is being raised is more than likely going to be an environmental trigger for any latent gender identity problems that he may have. They are actively encouraging an upbringing that will possibly make their children needlessly suffer gender identity crises.

If people were to take off their PC goggles for a minute, they would surely agree that the general quality of life for a transgender person is going to be far lower than that of someone who's ''normal''.

With that in mind, it's particularly sick to encourage your child in a way that increases their chance of becoming transgender.