Remember when the US Army invaded China? Don't remember marching on Beijing? I do.

Originally posted by kellynap43
reply to post by muzzleflash

 

No response to the appropriate uses when the United States has interceded? Oh, I see, just going to use the deflect technique. And not really discuss any refutes against your argument.

What? I am not sure what you are talking about.
Link me to the post you refer to or further elaborate on what you mean and I will respond in kind.

Thanks, and I apologize for not understanding exactly what you are trying to say. My bad. I am not ignoring you or attempting to cheat.

reply to post by muzzleflash


No, I support the truth. I dont get upset very easily. I actually have studied history. And know many details about the boxer rebellion that you left out to try and make your point about the USA being the bad guy.

1. Did you mention the United States was the last country to join?
2. Did you mention the United States continued with debates and negotations with China longer than any other country did.
3. Did you mention that we saved hundreds of american citizens that were living in China at the time? And that China was first to attack them and start killing innocent citizens of all nations?


No you didn't.

Indoctrinate somewhere else

Well maybe it's just America....but I was well aware of this event.

Then again I was not taught this in school.

The Scramble for China

There is an interesting book which has recently been released which covers this and other episodes.

Originally posted by kellynap43
reply to post by muzzleflash

 

No, I support the truth. I dont get upset very easily. I actually have studied history. And know many details about the boxer rebellion that you left out to try and make your point about the USA being the bad guy.

1. Did you mention the United States was the last country to join?
2. Did you mention the United States continued with debates and negotations with China longer than any other country did.
3. Did you mention that we saved hundreds of american citizens that were living in China at the time? And that China was first to attack them and start killing innocent citizens of all nations?


No you didn't.

Indoctrinate somewhere else

I provided tons of sources. My OP was meant to inform people that we actually took military action against China 110 years ago and marched on Beijing. That explains the particular "eye grabbing" title I chose. My focus was Imperialism and how we are indoctrinated, rather than trying to demonize any nation in particular.

If you actually read my sources which I linked many times, you would see that pretty much everything is being laid out on the table.

Or are you saying that linking a source doesn't count as part of the debate? I am confused.

You cannot blame me for the failure to actually read the source and realize that is included in the argument.

May want to look at Major General Smedley D. Butler's "War is a Racket", this is another example of American Imperialism used to infiltrate other nations to promote American corporate interests.

They also made a movie that used the boxer rebellion as a background, starring Steve McQueen, The Sand Pebbles (1966).

Originally posted by Kram09
Well maybe it's just America....but I was well aware of this event.

Then again I was not taught this in school.

The Scramble for China

There is an interesting book which has recently been released which covers this and other episodes.

Thank you for linking that book. I am a lover of books and I will ask my local library to order a copy of this in case they don't have one already. (I apologize I am a cheap skate hah).

I always appreciate good suggestions for further research / reading. TYVM.

reply to post by Blackmarketeer


There was another movie I caught the end of once, involving the Boxer Rebellion.

I can't remember the name.

At the end it had all the troops from the different countries marching.

reply to post by muzzleflash


Excellent point. The modern West is no better or worse than the Mongol Empire, the Byzantine Empire, etc. We in the west have somewhat better technology, but that doesn't always mean greater atrocities. I was not disagreeing with you regarding "who is worse", only pointing out that there is an abundance of "The West sucks more" on ATS, due mostly to lack of education.

Originally posted by Blackmarketeer
May want to look at Major General Smedley D. Butler's "War is a Racket", this is another example of American Imperialism used to infiltrate other nations to promote American corporate interests.

They also made a movie that used the boxer rebellion as a background, starring Steve McQueen, The Sand Pebbles (1966).

Great to bring up Good ol' General Butler!
Butler's involvement in the Boxer Rebellion

Once in China, Butler was initially deployed at Tientsin. He took part in the Battle of Tientsin on July 13, 1900. When he saw another Marine officer fall wounded, he climbed out of a trench to rescue him. Butler was then himself shot in the thigh. Another Marine helped him get to safety, but also was shot. Despite his leg wound, Butler assisted the wounded officer to the rear.

This is just part of his incredible list of duty / tours.

It makes perfect sense to me why Butler said "War is a Racket". It makes perfect sense why he took the actions he did to fight the Imperialist agenda.

I would like to think Butler is one of the real good guys, and he Loved America. He knew these wars were not justified on legitimate grounds, but rather on monetary or power-based. He was there, he saw what really went down.

Forgive me if I tend to favor Butler's comments. This guy was a true American Hero in my eyes. Braver than hell (He was a Marine after all!)

In November 1934, Butler alleged the existence of a political conspiracy of Wall Street interests to overthrow President Roosevelt, a series of allegations that came to be known in the media as the Business Plot.

More info to ponder over:
America in Central America - Banana Wars

Between the time of the war with Spain and 1934, the United States conducted military operations and occupations in Panama, Honduras, Nicaragua, Mexico, Haiti, and the Dominican Republic.

What happened with the Bonus Army?
The Business Plot to overthrow American Govt

Originally posted by taskforce4256
reply to post by muzzleflash

 

Excellent point. The modern West is no better or worse than the Mongol Empire, the Byzantine Empire, etc. We in the west have somewhat better technology, but that doesn't always mean greater atrocities. I was not disagreeing with you regarding "who is worse", only pointing out that there is an abundance of "The West sucks more" on ATS, due mostly to lack of education.

I agree. I also detest the particular issue you are pointing out.

I do not think the West sucks more becuase History proves no matter what skin color or nation you are from, we all got skeletons in the closet. Great post.

reply to post by muzzleflash


Again, the world was a very different place. Nobodys saying that murdering the chinese was right, but i can point to a ton of examples where the chinese were murdered in the hundreds of thousands in a day. And you pretend like the Boxer Rebellion is an atrocity by the evil americans like no other...

Also, its no surprise that you didnt learn this in school. Hell, im canadian, and i didnt learn about all the wars in my history. Highschool survey texts are not meant to be a comprehensive overview of every menial military venture in history. If you were to pick up an imperial history, american history, or chinese history course in University you would certainly encounter the Boxer rebellion in several instances.

It is by no means "erased from history". They just dont care to teach you about something that is so very insignificant to your history at such a young age.

If you want to learn about these things, educate yourself. And, if you want to look at history through the "i hate america" lens, that is up to your discretion as well.

But frankly, the way you have painted these events is with the ignorant conspirital brush that is applied to so many history topics on this board. You discount the historical context, and amplify the anti-american sentiment. Which is unfortunate for anyone who looks to this board for general historical knowledge... but i guess that in, in itself, is a big mistake

The real aggressors against the Chinese were the Japanese, I remember seeing pics of how savage they were in oppressing the Boxers.

The Alliance's goal was to force China to remain open to foreign exploitation and corporate interests. That was the only purpose for this "war". It was pure imperialism.

BTW another movie that uses the boxer rebellion as background is Jet Li's "Fearless" (2006). He plays Master Huo Yuanjia (1869-1910), founder of the Jin Wu Sports Federation.

reply to post by SPACEYstranger


I never said "evil" Americans. You are totally attempting to downplay this and turn it into a personal attack. An attack on me for daring to read and share.

I clearly pointed out in many posts, the soldiers from the Alliance nations were pawns used by internationalist corporate interests to further profit and resource gains.

The "conspiracy" brush is not ignorant. Read General Butler's history. Read about what he said.
Unless you think General Butler who WAS THERE in China during the Boxer Rebellion is ignorant too.

Yeah let's take SPACEYstranger's opinion over the words of General Butler. Great idea! You tell me, who is the ignorant one again?

I actually did learn about this in high school, (in the US). And although opium was a big part, if I remember correctly the "international response" came after foreign residents and people of certain religions were cornered into a certain area and were being attacked by the chinese imperial army.
It's like saying slavery was the driving issue behind the civil war. although it was one of the issues there is a bigger picture. It's been awhile but if I remember correctly a certain group started gaining power in china, and decided they did not want foriegn interest or religious groups in their country. They started slaughtering foreign resident and christians who were living there at the time.
Also there were alot of other countries involved here infact the US was part of an expedition involving other nations. So the title of your post should read, remember when the Japaniese, Russian, British, french, US, German, Austrian, and Italian armies invaded china?

Japan 18 warships, 540 marines, and 20,300 troops
Russia 10 warships, 750 marines and 12400 troops
United Kingdom 8 warships, 2020 marines and 10,000 troops
France 5 warships, 390 marines and 3130 troops
US 2 warships, 295 marines and 3125 troops
Germany 5 warships, 600 marines and 300 troops
Austria hungry 4 warships, 296 marines
Italy 2 warships, and 80 marines

reply to post by yourmaker


Oh, but they are.

Who owns most of the US debt and, therefore, us?

It's taken a lot of years for that sleeping giant to wake up, but when it does...LOOK OUT.

Originally posted by rbilly001

Also there were alot of other countries involved here infact the US was part of an expedition involving other nations. So the title of your post should read, remember when the Japaniese, Russian, British, french, US, German, Austrian, and Italian armies invaded china?

Japan 18 warships, 540 marines, and 20,300 troops
Russia 10 warships, 750 marines and 12400 troops
United Kingdom 8 warships, 2020 marines and 10,000 troops
France 5 warships, 390 marines and 3130 troops
US 2 warships, 295 marines and 3125 troops
Germany 5 warships, 600 marines and 300 troops
Austria hungry 4 warships, 296 marines
Italy 2 warships, and 80 marines

Hmmm mind linking where you got those figures from? I am not disputing them I would just like to have actual numbers to work with, thanks. According to your list Italy was the least involved troop wise. Thanks, I didn't know the exact numbers. I appreciate you listing them.

And believe me I actually tried writing the title the way you put it. But I discovered it was a 3-4 Sentence long headline, which is not gonna work. So I tried chopping it down into 2 sentences that I could get the point across, get American's attention, and still stay on topic. Notice the first statements I made goes directly into the "other nations" involved.

You try making a thread with a title that long. It just won't work.

I just pulled it off of wiki, en.wikipedia.org...

I also found this interesting quote

"Allied troops eagerly raped women, the Germans and Russians were reported to have behaved savagely, they bayoneted their rape victims. Disgusted American marines attempted to restrain the Germans with violence, one was wounded as a result. The Allies covered up their atrocities by labeling all Chinese dead as Boxers. Other troops raped any more or less attractive women they could find. One U.S. Marine wrote that the Germans and Russians, in particular, bayoneted these women after raping them.[12] However, the Japanese did not engage in atrocities, a Japanese officer was shocked by the looting and they behaved courteously to Chinese civilians".

I have some material on this from another history class I took later in college, I will see if I can dig it up to see if the military numbers match up.

And we've also got the Phillipine-American war memory holed into oblivion too. US Army rounding up civillians and burning them alive in buildings and such.

There is nothing new under the sun.

Wiki Link

Atrocities were committed on both sides.[78] United States attacks into the countryside often included scorched earth campaigns[62] in which entire villages were burned and destroyed, the use of torture (water cure[79]) and the concentration of civilians into "protected zones".[80] In November 1901, the Manila correspondent of the Philadelphia Ledger reported:"The present war is no bloodless, opera bouffe engagement; our men have been relentless, have killed to exterminate men, women, children, prisoners and captives, active insurgents and suspected people from lads of ten up, the idea prevailing that the Filipino as such was little better than a dog...."

Nothing new (at least for me)...
You have to read this book, folks.
The Conspirators Hierarchy: The Committee of Three Hundred by John Coleman

Amazing, really.