Pope and Anti-Pope die 10 days apart

Originally posted by FlyersFan


********************************
Honestly, you don't know anything about the Catholic Church.
Mary is not worshipped. Worship belongs to God alone.
Mary was saved by Christ, she can't be his equal.
I suggest you read the Catholic Catechism to get aquainted
with what the Church really believes. Stop listening to
non-Catholic sources. If you honestly want to know
what the Catholic church believes, go to the source.
Same with the Jews, or the Baptists, or the Muslims.
If you want to know what someone REALLY believes,
go to the source. Don't read garbage pumped out by
opposing groups that haven't got a clue and just want
to discredit the other group.

Oh ... 'the pope is the anti-christ' is so old, and so dumb ...
He doesn't fit ANY of the warning signs. He isn't held up
in esteem by even most Catholics, let alone worshipped
by the entire world.

Suggested source for what the Catholic church REALLY
is - www.catholic.com...

Read up. Learn.


[edit on 8/1/2004 by FlyersFan]

Obviously it's you who has no idea what your talking about.

Have you ever been inside a Catholic church/service? I have, I was raised Catholic.

I've seen people light up their candles and kneel down to a statue of Mary and pray to it.

I've seen people sing songs of prayers to Mary and the archangel Michael.

I've seen people cry their sins out to the priest as if he was any better than the person.

Originally posted by Mynaeris
1) Where in the Bible does Jesus or God in the Old Testament or New state that people should pray to the Virgin Mary? Or is this an alternate Bible;

You won't find it directly but I would point to two verses from scripture. You will need to pray for discernment. 1) What did Jesus say to both John and Mary when they were at the foot of his cross? 2) What did Mary instruct the servants to do at the wedding feast at Cana?

Originally posted by Mynaeris
2) Why is it that it is clearly stated in the bible that Peter would be the foundation of the church, whilst the catholic church was founded by Paul.
To quote Jesus to Peter : "You are the rock on which I will build my church". Paul never actually met Jesus nor does the two versions of his conversion actually disagree with each other.

I think you have your facts wrong. Peter was the successsor to Jesus not Paul. In fact Paul was never a pope. He was a convert to the way and a great preacher, but never pope. A list of the popes can be found at this link. www.newadvent.org...

Originally posted by Mynaeris
3) Why is there a need for relics when beatifying a "saint"? Taking a body part of a human no matter how pure and wonderful and praying to it is strictly pagan in nature.

Again, I'm not sure where you're getting this one from. Maybe just too many Catholic bashing posts by non-Catholics with more hatred than knowledge. There is no relic requirement for sainthood. This sounds more like the rumore of first andf second grade students who used to say that when a priest died they had to cut off his fingers that were used to touch the Blessed Sacrament. If you still feel that relics are necessary for sainthood, please cite a Church document that states that. Good luck in your search.

Originally posted by Mynaeris
Don't call us ignorant, prove us wrong.

Ignornace is clinging to myths and lies about a subject for which one has not done any research and simply stands there saying prove me wrong.

I have tried not to be offensive to any of the posters however lets go through the responses again.

1) There is NO quote in the bible that people should pray to Mary. It has its roots more in sociology than religious writings. As you showed clearly you couldn't prove this one.

2) I never even implied that Paul was a pope. However I can quite easily point out numerous quotes from the bible of problems between Paul and the other apostles. And Paul was the founder of the catholic church. In various places in the bible the apostles objected to the teachings of Paul.

3) A recent program on National Geographic entitled - "Inside the Vatican" it quite clearly stated that the pope was presented with relics of the latest candidates for sainthood, which included Mother Theresa. A finger of another "would be saint". I am sure you are aware that there was considerable controversy about the Monica Besra miracle?
ad.doubleclick.net...;sz=120x600;tile=3;
ord=692637 - still people are encouraged to pray to icons of saints and relics ( body parts) - this is not rumor this is accepted fact.

Once again speak with a loving heart and people will listen.

Originally posted by Illmatic67

Obviously it's you who has no idea what your talking about.

Have you ever been inside a Catholic church/service? I have, I was raised Catholic.

I've seen people light up their candles and kneel down to a statue of Mary and pray to it.

I've seen people sing songs of prayers to Mary and the archangel Michael.

I've seen people cry their sins out to the priest as if he was any better than the person.

*********************************

No, I DO know what I'm talking about. I am Catholic, and I have read my Catechism. Something you haven 't done. If you had, you would have understood exactly what was going on around you, instead of jumping to uneducated conclusions.

No one prays TO Mary in worship. Everyone is allowed to ask prayers from others and to pray for others. THis is what people do. They ask the Mother of God to pray for them TO JESUS. Open the Catechism. Read.

So what if people sing songs to Mary and St. Michael the Arch Angel. They aren't worshiping them in any way. People sing songs about all sorts of things and people.

People go to confession to a priest knowing full well that he is a sinner as they are. No one thinks they are any better or worse than they are. This is sooooooooooo dumb. Confession is scriptural and traditional.

Sorry charlie. It's YOU that doesn't understand. Read the Catechism.
Come back and try again when you understand the subject matter.

Originally posted by f16falcon
also how they say the pope is infalliable
-The pope is not god or jesus, he is man therefore he can be wrong

The pope is only infallible when he speaks 'ex cathreda' - from the chair
of St. Peter on matters of theology. This is garunteed by Matthew 16:18-19. Satan shall not conquer the Church. If the Church spreads erroneous dogma, then Satan has conquered Christ's church. This can't happen.

The pope himself is not infallible. He sins. He goes to confession.

People thinking that Catholics believe the pope himself to be infallible is a
common error. It is in fact the pronouncements from the Pope on matters of Theology spoken Ex Cathreda ONLY that is infallible.

Originally posted by Mynaeris
3) Why is there a need for relics when beatifying a "saint"? Taking a body part of a human no matter how pure and wonderful and praying to it is strictly pagan in nature.

I don't have it in front of me and honestly, it's a nice day out and I want to go swimming so I'm too lazy to go get the exact words -

There are many instances in the bible of use of relics. Peters shadow crosses over people and they are cured. Somewhere in the Acts there is a handkerchief of a holy person that is touched to a sick person and they are cured. The bones of either Joseph or Elias or some one like that are touched to a sick person and they are cured.

When I get back from the pool, I'll see if I can find the exact quotes for ya'
and post 'em here. Unless someone else does it before me.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Honestly, you don't know anything about the Catholic Church.
Mary is not worshipped. Worship belongs to God alone.

Some Catholics do pray to Maria (Mary) and the "saints", and beg them to transfer their prayers before Jesus. At least the Norwegian Catholics does! Here is an excerpt from katolsk.no (the catholic church in Norway) :

"St. Olav, You that fell on Stiklestad for your royal power and for Christianity, we pray to you: pray to Christ for us, our Lord." - St. Olav (king of Norway) who introduced Christianity in Norway sometime in the Viking era, and was declared a saint one year after his death (1030 BC).

Jesus Christ himself said that we can pray to the Father and ask for anything in his name, and actually get it! We don't need any saint to do that! Why do some Catholics disobey the Word of God? And... yes, prayer equals worship.

John 14,13-14: 13 And whatever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do [it].

1John 5,15: And if we know that he heareth us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired from him.

1John 3,22: And whatever we ask, we receive from him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Mary was saved by Christ, she can't be his equal.

No one really can!

Originally posted by FlyersFan
I suggest you read the Catholic Catechism to get aquainted
with what the Church really believes. Stop listening to
non-Catholic sources. If you honestly want to know
what the Catholic church believes, go to the source.

I have studied the catholic catechism and it is far away from the teachings of the Bible.

-Did the catholic church have the power to edit the Ten Commandments of God?
-Did the catholic church have the power to change the Sabbath to Sunday?
-Why is Jesus Christ sacrificed on every Catholic mass, when he actually did die once and for all on the cross!?
-Has the pope proper blessings from God to use the titles "Holy Father" and "Vicar of Christ"?
-Why are the dead people being prayed to when this is forbidden by God?
-Is the purgatory biblical?
-What about infant babtism, is a child really a "Child of Satan" when it's born, and is it biblical?
-Was Mary without any kind of sin?

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Oh ... 'the pope is the anti-christ' is so old, and so dumb ...
He doesn't fit ANY of the warning signs. He isn't held up
in esteem by even most Catholics, let alone worshipped
by the entire world.

Well, Satan is a master of disguise!

Please read this.

[edit on 1/8-2004 by otherwise]

Originally posted by otherwise
I have studied the catholic catechism and it is far away from the teachings of the Bible.

-Did the catholic church have the power to edit the Ten Commandments of God?
-Did the catholic church have the power to change the Sabbath to Sunday?
-Why is Jesus Christ sacrificed on every Catholic mass, when he actually did die once and for all on the cross!?
-Has the pope proper blessings from God to use the titles "Holy Father" and "Vicar of Christ"?
-Why are the dead people being prayed to when this is forbidden by God?
-Is the purgatory biblical?
-What about infant babtism, is a child really a "Child of Satan" when it's born, and is it biblical?
-Was Mary without any kind of sin?

Your beliefs are different than Catholics. Catholics aren't condeming you for it. Get off condeming them for it. You don't spiritually understand the Catholic church. Believe what you want.

But:

You have no authority to say that whatever you have bought into is more the truth than the oldest Christian church in the history of mankind.

You obviously believe the Bible is the final authority and every person is going to interpret that differently so how that is final I don't know. You have the right to believe whatever you want, you have no right to trash the beliefs of others.

Obviously this discussion is going nowhere. No matter how many times a Catholic tries to educate the ill-informed about the Catholic church it will fall on deaf ears. I just don't get where non-catholics or ex-catholics think they should be trying to present themselves as experts on the church.

Look, I spent 2 decades outside the church myself. I felt very similar to a lot of what others who have walked away do. I was extremely spiritual but had no interest in organized religion. I thought they were too controlling, out of touch, yada yada. On the other hand, this prevented me from being a godmother to most of my sisters children. I didn't meet the criteria. I didn't believe in the sacrafice of the mass, so I didn't take communion even if I was there. Whether I agreed with or believed in the church at the time, I had chosen not to participate, if I was not a Catholic in good standing, I still respected their beliefs and rules and the people who followed them.

It's called religious tolerance & religous freedom folks.

Amen, Relentless.
I am a Catholic convert and I've had my troubles with church teachings from time to time, BUT I am a practicing Catholic and believe in my faith.
As Relentless said, we, who are Catholic, are not bashing other religions. Why bash us? Can't we all agree that each person has to choose his/her own spiritual path? This is a country of religious tolerance. Let's practice it.
joey

Oh well, I respect your Catholic faith, don't worry.

What I think is a little twisted, is that you claim to be Christians, but don't follow the Word of God... You put your tradition above the Bible, although God dislikes tradition of men...

Mark 7,8-9:
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, [as] the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said to them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Mark 7,13 Making the word of God of no effect through your traditions, which ye have delivered: and many such like things ye do.

As long as the tradition has a higher rank than the Bible, I guess the verses I quoted won't have any effect on your faith...

[edit on 1/8-2004 by otherwise]

Ok, this is my last word on this subject. Catholics don't claim to be Christians. We are Christians. You think that everything we believe is twisted because we do not follow a literal interpretation of the Bible. That is your opinion and I respect that. I will not call you "twisted" or "un-Christian".
So, why the Catholic bashing? I don't place tradition above the Bible. You make assumptions based on your religious feelings. Again, that's your right.
And, it's my right to practice Catholicism. I would hope we could all worship God in our own ways without the necessity of resorting to name-calling and negative characterizations of different denominations.
Fini,
joey

Originally posted by Relentless

Originally posted by f16falcon

also how they say the pope is infalliable
-The pope is not god or jesus, he is man therefore he can be wrong

Ah, one of the most misunderstood things about the church. The Catholic church says the Pope is infallible in matters of doctrine. Nothing more. In other words, in any Official Act, he will not lead the Church astray.

That's it. We do not believe that sitting in Rome makes one perfect.

As for Mary and the Saints, it would take forever to explain that, especially in view of the mindset of people who have a problem with it, and it would be a long debate. But again, it is another misunderstood belief of Catholics that people use to point out how horrible we are, when in fact, it is only another instance of differences in faith that no one should be so concerned about unless they are trying to force their beliefs on someone else. You can choose to disagree with it, you may not understand it, but since there is freedom of religion, it should not really concern you.

No one can sit there and say that Catholics or others are wrong or right in any other context than the fact that something is in disagreement with their own beliefs. But differences in belief simply cannot be proven as fact, they are matters of faith.

Sorry I should have elaborated on my sentence

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Originally posted by Illmatic67

Obviously it's you who has no idea what your talking about.

Have you ever been inside a Catholic church/service? I have, I was raised Catholic.

I've seen people light up their candles and kneel down to a statue of Mary and pray to it.

I've seen people sing songs of prayers to Mary and the archangel Michael.

I've seen people cry their sins out to the priest as if he was any better than the person.

*********************************

No, I DO know what I'm talking about. I am Catholic, and I have read my Catechism. Something you haven 't done. If you had, you would have understood exactly what was going on around you, instead of jumping to uneducated conclusions.

No one prays TO Mary in worship. Everyone is allowed to ask prayers from others and to pray for others. THis is what people do. They ask the Mother of God to pray for them TO JESUS. Open the Catechism. Read

Ok I go to a catholic church, what about the prayer
Hail Mary
The first line is
Hail Mary full of grace
Jesus said he was the way(or at least I think he said that), that means that we pray to God and Jesus not Mary. If people don't worship Mary then why bow down to her and kneel and pray?

We pray to Mary for the same reason that we pray to the saints..to intercede on our behalf with God. Mary has a special position in the Catholic Church, in that she bore Jesus, the Son of God. So, we give her a special veneration for this act. This, however, is not the same as worshipping her on the same level as God. The prayer is:
Hail Mary, Full of Grace
The Lord is With Thee
Blessed art Thou Amongst Women
And Blessed is the Fruit of Thy Womb, Jesus
Holy Mary, Mother of God, Prayer for us Sinners Now and at the Hour of Our Death
So, Mary is blessed amongst women because she was the bearer of Jesus. We do ask her to pray FOR us, as we ask other saints to pray for us, but we do not pray to her as the sole entity. That is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost (or Spirit)
I know, I said I wouldn't say anymore, but I wanted to try and clear that up..though I doubt we can ever clear up the complex position that the Virgin Mary occupies in the Catholic Church.
joey

Jesus Christ himself clearly expressed that it is more important to listen to the word of God, than it is to worship Mary.

Luke 11,27-28
27 And it came to pass, as he spoke these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said to him, Blessed is the womb that bore thee, and the breasts which nourished thee.
28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

Again, only God shall be worshipped (Matt 4,10; Luke 4,8). It is as easy as that!

I was raised Catholic and attended a Catholic school for 8 year, but I have studied many different religions - and still have a lot to learn. THe one thing that I can state with complete confidence is that no one religion is 100% right. Religion is a product of man not God, and as such is subject to the prejudices of the men who create it. Catholics, Baptists, Coptics, Buddists, whatever, those who created them each had agendas that they wished to satisfy. Without casting a critical eye on all sects, including your own, you cannot truly have a pure relationship with God. By all means, join a church and celebrate your faith, but do so with the realization that not everything is as you are taught. Listen to the voice of God without any preconceived notions and He will never lead you astray.

Originally posted by Mynaeris
This is a rather interesting article about the Pope and the pretender. Many people have suggested that the vatican was the anti-christ? The catholic church just gets scarier and scarier.

EL PALMAR DE TROYA, Spain (Reuters) - Pope John Paul II has a challenger.

Papal pretender "Gregorio XVII" is leader of a self-styled church in Spain who says God crowned him after Pope Paul VI's 1978 death, that Satan controls the Vatican and that the devil will crucify him at the start of an apocalyptic end of an era.

There were some 300 worshipers attending services on a recent Reuters visit to Gregorio's church in El Palmar de Troya, a vast cathedral-like complex of domes, columns and arches perched on a hill in Spain's dusty southern Andalusia region.

Church members say followers number several thousand and come from as far away as the Americas. But membership is clearly dwarfed by the 1 billion Roman Catholics around the world who recognize John Paul as head of the church.

"Rome ... is no longer the capital of Christianity; the new Rome is the Sacred Place of El Palmar de Troya," a booklet from Gregorio's church quotes God as telling him.

Gregorio's church has conferred sainthood on former Spanish dictator Francisco Franco for defending Catholicism in Spain's Civil War and four subsequent decades of fascist rule.

Followers call 58-year-old Gregorio the last pope, and say he will be crucified. An electronic information package handed out at the church shows gory pictures of Gregorio with bleeding wounds in the hands, torso and forehead similar to those of Christ on the cross.

"At the end of his reign the anti-Christ appears and he will put the pope to death, he will crucify him, and then Christ will appear and destroy the anti-Christ and a new era will begin," a middle-aged Irish man told Reuters on his way to mass.

Gregorio's congregation rejects reforms made by the Catholic Church at the 1962-65 Second Vatican Council, such as saying mass in local languages instead of Latin and dialogue with other religions and branches of Christianity.

"We believe that he is the true pope. We believe this is where the true church is," said a 21-year-old Irish man, visiting the parched, dusty village on a pilgrimage.

The article continues... at
www.reuters.com...

I want to tell you the truth........ The illmunati (NWO) owns/operate the Vatican (Hence the vatican pope being hit by meteors)
The illuminati (NWO) is the anti-christ, they wish to brainwash/control the minds of the public (Cellphone Towers) might I refer you to search (Project MK-ULTRA) We are all in big trouble, even the president and visible government is just a play, a illegitimate operation, it doesn't even really do anything, except what its told, its hard to explain, but everything has been DEEPLY thought about and organised...
They want to take away your rights (Patriot Act 1 and 2) and want to convert all polices to military polices. Right now, if they suspect you of being a terrorist they can enter your house without a warrant and we can ALL easily enter the catagory of terrorist if you read the PATRIOT ACTS One and Two
Jesus' true followers must start awakening and doing something we as humans and sons of God have the power to stop this madness, but it has been predicted... but maybe that is a fabrication by the illuminati so that we easily fall under their power in hopes someone will save us, although I believe in Jesus. What we are facing knows more than we do, because they keep us in the dark illuminati means "Holder of Light" just look at how secretive the CIA is.

firstly the pope is not legitamate as it is...be it in Rome or dusty spain!!

JESUS CHRIST is the ROCK on which the CHURCH , HIS BRIDE is founded!!!
All through out the bible Jesus is referred to as the "rock" or the "stone" (the stone the builder rejected has become the CHIEF CORNER STONE" and "whoever this rock falls on will be GROUND to DUST"

my point is that there is only ONE LEADER of Christianity and guess what...that is JESUS CHRIST himself!!!

and as for Mary.......it is WRONG to pray to anyone other than Jesus Christ or the Father....because then you are asking them to either 1)be your God and answer your prayers OR 2) intercede to God the father for you....its GOT TO BE one of these two ..if its the last one...then why did Jesus die for you?? Is not JESUS THE ONE TRUE HIGH PRIEST of his people?? the ONE TRUE ADVOCATE of those who trust in him?? If Catholics want to pray to Mary then thats their business, even though I think it is a false teaching....one thing though that needs to be posted is about the HERESY and FALSE TEACHINGS of the church of rome from her past relating to Mary. Is this true: Rome forced people to accept Mary as Codimatrix?? Co-saviour? EQUAL WITH JESUS?? THAT MARY WAS BORN A VIRGIN LIKE JESUS??? THAT MARY IS EQUAL TO JESUS AND SAVES JUST AS JESUS DOES?? and if the people did not accept this they were tortured and murdered?? did this happen or am I reading false history?? how many REAL saints died at the hands of the inquistion?? does 100 million sound like the ravings of a mad man?? how long were the inquisitions for?? will we ever know how many saints died?? makes the holocaust,WW1 and WW11 look like a pic nic. how many inquitions were there anyway?? wasnt it many over hundreds of years???

some more catholic questions:

1) wasnt it taught that we can pray to the dead?? those not in heaven?? like family members etc?? (they werent in heaven because they were in purgatory) this is condemned in the bible
2) isnt it said that we are NOT to make any image or idol? these are in every catholic church. this is condemned in the bible
3) WHY must we call pastors "father" when jesus even said not to call ANYONE your father except your earthly and heavenly father. THIS GOES DIRECTLY AGAINST THE VERY WORDS OF THE MAN YOU SAY YOU FOLLOW
4) Why are most mystic catholics almost ALWAYS receiving messages from mary?? why doesnt JESUS EVER SEEM TO SPEAK TO CATHOLICS IN MYSTICAL EXPERIENCES??
5) Purgatory is NOT IN THE BIBLE.
6) Why has rome funded so many wars?? why did rome support hitler??
7) is rome just a church or actually a country??

i could go on and on....i know the above will probably anger many of the catholics...but it wasnt the above that opened my eyes...it was reading the TESTIMONIES of former priests and nuns who have left rome. thats what you should do please remeber church is important BUT NO CHURCH ON THIS EARTH WILL SAVE YOU FROM 1) Satan 2) Hell 3) Gods wrath on you as a sinner...only a MAN does that..........his name is J E S U S !!!!

as for any other different church denomnations reading this...dont laugh to hard...rome has infultrated just about every church on this earth....and to compete with the false laws of rome in the league of false religion the new upcomer is multi strain American-lets-get-rich-on-God-fight-demons-and-build-big-churchs-with-our
-business-model-church Gospel that is now polluting this earth.

Sounds harsh ??? Am I a complete nutter??? hmmm it does say in the bible that a FALLING AWAY will come right??? thats within the churchs people not in the world....that doesnt mean people will stop going to church..it means the churchs will still be there but with FALSE teachers and no true Gospel in sight!




[edit on 11-9-2004 by TruthStrgnrThanFiction]

By a strange quirk of fate the "other Pope" , Clemente Domínguez y Gómez died 10 days before Pope John Paul II. This is rather unusual. Another holy person who died in the past couple of months is the last of the Fatima miracle kids, Sister Lucia. What does all of this indicate if anything? Clemente Dominguez y Gomez is viewed by mainstream Roman Catholicism as an antipope.

en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by zsandmann
Sounds like the beginnings of a Catholic cult to me. Wouldnt be surprised to see some follwer take fate into his own hands and murder and crucify this guy to fulfill the prophecy.

sounds like the beginning of any cult!