Pope and Anti-Pope die 10 days apart

This is a rather interesting article about the Pope and the pretender. Many people have suggested that the vatican was the anti-christ? The catholic church just gets scarier and scarier.

EL PALMAR DE TROYA, Spain (Reuters) - Pope John Paul II has a challenger.

Papal pretender "Gregorio XVII" is leader of a self-styled church in Spain who says God crowned him after Pope Paul VI's 1978 death, that Satan controls the Vatican and that the devil will crucify him at the start of an apocalyptic end of an era.

There were some 300 worshipers attending services on a recent Reuters visit to Gregorio's church in El Palmar de Troya, a vast cathedral-like complex of domes, columns and arches perched on a hill in Spain's dusty southern Andalusia region.

Church members say followers number several thousand and come from as far away as the Americas. But membership is clearly dwarfed by the 1 billion Roman Catholics around the world who recognize John Paul as head of the church.

"Rome ... is no longer the capital of Christianity; the new Rome is the Sacred Place of El Palmar de Troya," a booklet from Gregorio's church quotes God as telling him.

Gregorio's church has conferred sainthood on former Spanish dictator Francisco Franco for defending Catholicism in Spain's Civil War and four subsequent decades of fascist rule.

Followers call 58-year-old Gregorio the last pope, and say he will be crucified. An electronic information package handed out at the church shows gory pictures of Gregorio with bleeding wounds in the hands, torso and forehead similar to those of Christ on the cross.

"At the end of his reign the anti-Christ appears and he will put the pope to death, he will crucify him, and then Christ will appear and destroy the anti-Christ and a new era will begin," a middle-aged Irish man told Reuters on his way to mass.

Gregorio's congregation rejects reforms made by the Catholic Church at the 1962-65 Second Vatican Council, such as saying mass in local languages instead of Latin and dialogue with other religions and branches of Christianity.

"We believe that he is the true pope. We believe this is where the true church is," said a 21-year-old Irish man, visiting the parched, dusty village on a pilgrimage.

The article continues... at
www.reuters.com...

[edit on 27-7-2004 by Mynaeris]

[edit on 5-4-2005 by asala]

Sounds like the beginnings of a Catholic cult to me. Wouldnt be surprised to see some follwer take fate into his own hands and murder and crucify this guy to fulfill the prophecy.

M,
just becouse someone says they are really the pope, doesn't make it so. Can he provide any evidence he is the real"choosen one"? I am not saying that he is wrong or making fun of you or your post, just what proof. I could say I am the pope, why should people believe him over me? BTW, I do see you worded it to say he says, not that you necessarly believe him.

well this sect probably isn't the first or the last to say that they are led by the true pope. But I would like to hear why he thinks he was choosen, but you never know he might be right

Originally posted by Mynaeris
This is a rather interesting article about the Pope and the pretender. Many people have suggested that the vatican was the anti-christ? The catholic church just gets scarier and scarier.

If you are using this guy to say the Catholic Church just gets scarier & scarier I must ask you why you would think this guy has anything to do with the Catholic Church. He obviously doesn't.

As for the unending rhetoric you have heard about the vatican (do you mean the Pope) being the anti-christ, well for those people I will say - you haven't got a clue. You don't know the Catholic Church or you wouldn't have so many misconceptions about it. As for the Popes, there may have been less than ideal vicars over time, but this man (our current Pope) is truly God's chosen to lead the flock during the worst times in the history of mankind. We are blessed to have him and if you don't agree, you are not informed and denying ignorance.

One particular person who is constantly knocking religion tried to correct me the other day that St. Paul was never a Saint. Well, of course he was, my point being, if you are certain the Catholic church is so nasty you probably haven educated yourself fully on the topic.

I'd put this guy in the category of the false prophets we have been warned about.

Originally posted by Relentless
As for the unending rhetoric you have heard about the vatican (do you mean the Pope) being the anti-christ, well for those people I will say - you haven't got a clue. You don't know the Catholic Church or you wouldn't have so many misconceptions about it.

Well, I'm happy to know a lot about the catholic church, all though I'm not a Catholic myself. What I know is that there are more idolatry and sunworshipping than Christianity within the catholic church. Virgin Mary is placed side by side with Jesus Christ, and is even being worshipped. Pure blasphemy!

And the pope claims to be the leader of the Church, he is not; Jesus is!

Originally posted by Relentless
As for the Popes, there may have been less than ideal vicars over time, but this man (our current Pope) is truly God's chosen to lead the flock during the worst times in the history of mankind. We are blessed to have him and if you don't agree, you are not informed and denying ignorance.

If the pope is God's chosen one, then what about the Holy Spirit? Isn't He supposed to the true Vicar of God according to the Bible? Why do we need a human "Holy Father" after all, when we have Jesus Christ?

Matthew 23,9: "And call no [man] your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, who is in heaven."

Only God is holy. (Revelation 15,4).

Why is the pope being called Holy and Father when the Bible contradicts both?

Originally posted by otherwise
Well, I'm happy to know a lot about the catholic church, all though I'm not a Catholic myself. What I know is that there are more idolatry and sunworshipping than Christianity within the catholic church. Virgin Mary is placed side by side with Jesus Christ, and is even being worshipped. Pure blasphemy!

See, this is what I am talking about. You either don't know or don't understand the Catholic Church, or you would not be making comments that are so inaccurate. In the Catholic faith, Mary is not side by side with Jesus, she is His mother. She is not worshipped, she is prayed to for various reasons for her intercession as the Mother of God.

Originally posted by otherwise

And the pope claims to be the leader of the Church, he is not; Jesus is!

The Pope doesn't claim anything, in the Catholic Church he IS the leader of the Church - here on earth. When it was time for Jesus to leave he appointed a man to watch over and guide his Church. So if you are referring to the Catholic church, you are mistaken, and if you are referring to any other church it's not really an issue since the Pope only claims responsibility for Catholics.

If you aren't Catholic, there is no assumption that you would understand these things or believe them, but by the same token you are not qualified to make statements about what Catholics believe, since you don't know the facts. I assume you were just giving your opinion though, and there was no harm meant.

Relentless: Firstly, I was raised a catholic, however I have learnt that not all truth lies in one place. Maybe you should show me the passage in the Bible where either God or Jesus states that we should pray to his mother? Secondly, if you read more often you would have heard that it has been much speculated that Paul, the founder of the catholic church was the anti-christ - when Peter was the one that Jesus said was the rock on which his church would be built. Try a book called "Christianity betrayed". Read about the fights between Paul and the other apostles, read about the differnt versions in the new testament about Paul's conversion.Thirdly, its scary that any organisation should beatify various "saints" and keep pieces of their bodies as "relics" to be prayed to for indulgences.

Now when I started this thread I was shocked that this guy in Spain could have such a following when he was obviously not well. But after your attacks I feel that maybe its just a catholic thing.

Originally posted by Mynaeris

Now when I started this thread I was shocked that this guy in Spain could have such a following when he was obviously not well. But after your attacks I feel that maybe its just a catholic thing.

Mynaeris - I do not consider my posts attacks, I considered them clarification. It is not necc. for me that everyone believe what I believe, however, I do often see misinformation about what I believe and I think it should be clarified. If anyone is the punching bag these days, it is the Catholic Church. The demonizing of the the Church is to me heartbreaking. It is nothing like that at all. Other sects of Christianity have different views and different beliefs, that is fine. In the end we'll all find out what it was all about.

I just don't understand why so many people feel if they don't believe the precepts of the Catholic church that they must do anything more than walk away and follow their own faith.

P.S. About those other things you think I should read, I spent many years myself outside of the Church and read plenty of that stuff. In the end, I just didn't see why I should take any of these people as knowing the truth either.

[edit on 30-7-2004 by Relentless]

Originally posted by Relentless
See, this is what I am talking about. You either don't know or don't understand the Catholic Church, or you would not be making comments that are so inaccurate. In the Catholic faith, Mary is not side by side with Jesus, she is His mother. She is not worshipped, she is prayed to for various reasons for her intercession as the Mother of God.

Deuteronomy 17,3: "And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; "

If Maria really were in heaven, why are you praying to her when God forbids it? Only God shall be worshipped (Matt 4,10; Luke 4,8; Rev 19,10; Rev 22,9).

Originally posted by Relentless
The Pope doesn't claim anything, in the Catholic Church he IS the leader of the Church - here on earth. When it was time for Jesus to leave he appointed a man to watch over and guide his Church. So if you are referring to the Catholic church, you are mistaken, and if you are referring to any other church it's not really an issue since the Pope only claims responsibility for Catholics.

Jesus didn't appoint any pope to control his Church, he sent his Holy Spirit to do that job! No offence, but I do thank God for that!

Originally posted by Relentless
If you aren't Catholic, there is no assumption that you would understand these things or believe them, but by the same token you are not qualified to make statements about what Catholics believe, since you don't know the facts. I assume you were just giving your opinion though, and there was no harm meant.

I don't understand why Catholics keep ignoring the biblical facts, which alone reveals the false teaching of the catholic church. The Bible says this:

- One is Holy: God Himself (Revelation 15,4)
- One Father: God. (Matthew 23,9)
- One Vicar of Christ: The Holy Spirit. (John 14,16)
- One Way to God: through Jesus Christ. (John 14,6)
- Only God shall be worshipped. (Matt 4,10; Luke 4,8; Rev 19,10; Rev 22,9).
- Jesus was sacrificed once!

The Catholics claim/do this:
- The pope is called Holy Father.
- The pope is called the Vicar of Christ.
- There is no way to God except through the catholic church.
- Praying to Maria and other "saints", allthough they are all dead.
- Jesus is sacrificed on every mass.

Originally posted by otherwise
The Catholics claim/do this:
- The pope is called Holy Father.
- The pope is called the Vicar of Christ.
- There is no way to God except through the catholic church.
- Praying to Maria and other "saints", allthough they are all dead.
- Jesus is sacrificed on every mass.

1 & 2. True, you don't like the concept - fine. If I believe this is it harming your soul?
3. Not true, Catholics don't say this - Do you?
4. "Communion of Saints" - Don't expect anyone to understand this without a good Catechism, which I doubt anyone is in the mood for, but in a nutshell: We believe all souls in heaven are Saints (otherwise they wouldn't be there), and we believe that any Saint can still assist us here, because their assistance can help to lead us closer to Christ. Not a big deal if you don't buy it. If you don't believe this, is it harming you if I do?
5. True - We do believe this and without a good understanding of the Catholic faith or direct intervention of God himself, I can only pray for you if you would like further confirmation of this. (Just ask:lol

AND - ONE MORE TIME (drum roll)

I just don't understand why so many people feel if they don't believe the precepts of the Catholic church that they must do anything more than walk away and follow their own faith.

Any church that would Canonize Franco is bogus as H*E*L*L*!!

The thing with the catholic church is the whole Mary/Saint intercession
-doesn't Jesus say in the bible that he is the light and the way? or am I just imagining things(seriously i'm not 100% it's in the bible but it does ring a bell)

also how they say the pope is infalliable
-The pope is not god or jesus, he is man therefore he can be wrong

Now on the other hand though I will tip my hat to the catholic church for their work with the poor. I know that at my church there are many intiatives for helping those in need, and the spreading of the word.

Originally posted by f16falcon

also how they say the pope is infalliable
-The pope is not god or jesus, he is man therefore he can be wrong

Ah, one of the most misunderstood things about the church. The Catholic church says the Pope is infallible in matters of doctrine. Nothing more. In other words, in any Official Act, he will not lead the Church astray.

That's it. We do not believe that sitting in Rome makes one perfect.

As for Mary and the Saints, it would take forever to explain that, especially in view of the mindset of people who have a problem with it, and it would be a long debate. But again, it is another misunderstood belief of Catholics that people use to point out how horrible we are, when in fact, it is only another instance of differences in faith that no one should be so concerned about unless they are trying to force their beliefs on someone else. You can choose to disagree with it, you may not understand it, but since there is freedom of religion, it should not really concern you.

No one can sit there and say that Catholics or others are wrong or right in any other context than the fact that something is in disagreement with their own beliefs. But differences in belief simply cannot be proven as fact, they are matters of faith.

If you do a google search, you will find that there are numerous whacko's claiming to be the "real" pope....one living in a mobile home in Wisconsin. So, there's nothing new there.

Relentless did a great job in summing up the true Catholic concepts. The whole Mary thing gets so distorted by non-Catholics as does the position of the Pope.
This isn't to say I don't have disagreements with some of the Church teachings, but my fundamental faith remains unchanged.
I don't worship statues.
I don't pay indulgences.
I don't believe that the Pope is infallible except in matters of doctrine.
I don't pray directly to the Virgin Mary as a deity herself.
I do find faith and comfort in the Catholic Church.

My belief is that everyone has to find their own way to inner peace. For me, it is Catholicism. Others take different roads and they are all valid. Doctrinal hair-splitting is NOT the essence of Christianity (or any religion) . Forgive me for not being a proselytizer of a basher. I feel that religion is very much an individual path for enlightenment and peace.
joey

Relentless,
You just got my vote for way above. Thanks for all your good posts on this topic. Quite frankly I wasn't even going to reply to this thread because it is suimply full of ignorance. The original post included a line to the point of "the catholic church just gets scarier and scarier." As you correctly pointed out, this flake has nothing to do with the Catholic church and has actually excommunicated himself by declaring himself pope.

Those willing to educate themselves a bit will find that there have been many anti-popes throughtout history. And no, anti-pope has nothing to do with anti-Christ. If one wishes to call these groups cults, they may not be to far off the mark. But please, they are anything but Catholic!

Here's a link to another current anti-pope www.truecatholic.org...

It's anything but "true catholic" but the photo of the white smoke from the cabin chimney is is somewhat humorous.

[edit on 8/1/2004 by CommonSense]

It is rather tragic that the points raised in various parts of this thread are never actually addressed by the "catholics" - so lets list them.

1) Where in the Bible does Jesus or God in the Old Testament or New state that people should pray to the Virgin Mary? Or is this an alternate Bible;

2) Why is it that it is clearly stated in the bible that Peter would be the foundation of the church, whilst the catholic church was founded by Paul.
To quote Jesus to Peter : "You are the rock on which I will build my church". Paul never actually met Jesus nor does the two versions of his conversion actually disagree with each other.

3) Why is there a need for relics when beatifying a "saint"? Taking a body part of a human no matter how pure and wonderful and praying to it is strictly pagan in nature.

Don't call us ignorant, prove us wrong.

Well, I'm happy to know a lot about the catholic church, all though I'm not a Catholic myself. What I know is that there are more idolatry and sunworshipping than Christianity within the catholic church. Virgin Mary is placed side by side with Jesus Christ, and is even being worshipped. Pure blasphemy -

********************************
Honestly, you don't know anything about the Catholic Church.
Mary is not worshipped. Worship belongs to God alone.
Mary was saved by Christ, she can't be his equal.
I suggest you read the Catholic Catechism to get aquainted
with what the Church really believes. Stop listening to
non-Catholic sources. If you honestly want to know
what the Catholic church believes, go to the source.
Same with the Jews, or the Baptists, or the Muslims.
If you want to know what someone REALLY believes,
go to the source. Don't read garbage pumped out by
opposing groups that haven't got a clue and just want
to discredit the other group.

Oh ... 'the pope is the anti-christ' is so old, and so dumb ...
He doesn't fit ANY of the warning signs. He isn't held up
in esteem by even most Catholics, let alone worshipped
by the entire world.

Suggested source for what the Catholic church REALLY
is - www.catholic.com...

Read up. Learn.


[edit on 8/1/2004 by FlyersFan]

This sect sounds to me like the Catholic version of the Talibans... Women going to church with their heads covered and a dress falling at least four fingers below the knees, trousers for women are forbidden, they don't go to the beach for fear of falling into sin...

Originally posted by otherwise
Virgin Mary is placed side by side with Jesus Christ, and is even being worshipped. Pure blasphemy!

And what do you call Jesus Christ being worshipping instead of God?

Holy? Get out of here.


As far as the Catholic Church is they are the most evil institutional on the face of the planet. More evil than the USA.

Rome was never even the capital of Christianity to whoever said that. Rome sits on seven hills. The Pope sits on a throne made out of gold and that is 20-30 feet high. There's pictures of him holding an up-side-down crucifixion.

What is all that?