The JFK Assassination, An Analysis: Did William Greer Shoot Kennedy?

The JFK Assassination, An Analysis: Did William Greer Shoot Kennedy?

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*** WARNING: Some of the Images used below in this thread are of the actual Assassination of John F. Kennedy. Particularly the Fatal head wound which struck him at exactly Frame 313 of the Zapruder film. I need to show them to bring forth my theory, so please bear that in mind when reading further as you WILL come across certain unsavory images. Anyway, I just wanted to put this small disclaimer so nobody is caught off guard here, If you don't wish to see these images, this may not be the thread for you. Thanks. ***

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Hello once again ATS. Originally, I had decided to do yet another JFK Assassination thread as It's become one of my favorite topics here. One I research and find fascination in perhaps more so than any other. Now originally, I had started writing up a long thread looking at some of the evidence for and against certain theories, all the while trying to show my own theories too and why I believe what I currently believe and so on.

But, I realized that with some other threads I've made in the past, I'd be adding quite a lot of information on a lot of different things - thus causing a lot of what I feel is important information to be forgotten and not discussed. Maybe even missed completely. Therefore, what I'm deciding to do is split all of them up, and look at each different theory or point of discussion in a completely new thread thus not missing out on anything.

This thread being a discussion into the ("out there") theory of the driver, William Greer, somehow being able to have shot Kennedy. A theory many seem to subscribe to still. This thread being placed in a long line of other "suspects" in the shooting that I'd also like to take a detailed look at, hopefully spurring up some interesting debate on also.

Admittedly though, I'm not a fan of this particular theory in the slightest. I actually think It's one of the more ridiculous ideas that has come about from the whole case, therefore what I have below is the theory which I, myself, subscribe to which hopefully debunks the theory which states that the driver could have possibly shot Kennedy.

Well, that's the plan anyway.

But, with these series of threads I'm looking to start, I hope to gain a better grip on the case personally, as well as stir up the attention from others into this great case, and of course, cause some great discussion on each thread from some of the other members here on the theories which I subscribe to, which I will be showing through out this thread and the others planned in the future.

So please see below a small list of the threads, and series of threads, I hope to start over a long period of time:

The JFK Series:

SERIES 1: Who Could Have Killed JFK? - Who are the suspects?

Threads:

Did William Greer Shoot Kennedy?

Did Jackie Kennedy Shoot Kennedy?

Did Lee Harvey Oswald Shoot Kennedy?

Did Johnnie Roselli Shoot Kennedy?

Did James E. Files Shoot Kennedy?

Did Jim Braden Shoot Kennedy?

(If by any chance, anyone would like a discussion into anything not currently mentioned, please feel free to U2U me and I'll make sure to add it for a future thread in one of these series.)

As of late I've mostly been looking into the great work of the researcher Bob Harris also. In fact, more so than any other researcher of this case as his theories explain a great deal about this case which actually makes a lot of sense as well as being able to explain away a lot of misunderstandings and discrepancies at the same time. His theories are also primarily what a great deal of this thread, as well as my future ones are based around.

Anyway, I hope you enjoy reading this thread and I hope we can spur on a great debate on the topic of how the president was really killed... Especially by those whom believe the driver, William Greer, is responsible. Thanks, please continue reading:

Who Could Have Killed JFK? - Who are the suspects?

Did the Driver (William Greer) Shoot JFK?

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/a23bfe7c2acc.jpg[/atsimg]

Image of the Driver, William Greer

Now, personally, I wasn't even going to include this first segment into my original "analysis of the case" thread at all. I feel It's a rather baseless theory to be honest - the idea that the driver somehow turned around, shot the president, and guess what? None of the hundreds of witnesses noticed.. Despite ALL eyes being on the president and his motorcade at this moment in time.

Evidence more than seems to show a shot came from anywhere other than from inside the car itself.

But, this being so, there has been quite a few popular threads on the topic around ATS, not many recent though, but many from the past still. And It's this reason why I'd like to try and show why I have the opinion I currently have - The theory that the driver shooting Kennedy during his time in the motorcade at Dealey Plaza is but an impossibility. William Greer, the driver, is wholly Innocent IMO.

Now, I have been wondering how to go about this exactly, and I think one of the best ways to once and for all prove Greer couldn't have been the shooter is to revert back to the zapruder film. One of the best films we have of the events here, not forgetting It's seemingly the one and only piece of "evidence" supporters of this theory use to.. well, back up there theory on why the driver HAD in fact shot Kennedy..

So, let's take a look at frame 312 from the actual zapruder film itself first off. This being the single frame before the fatal head shot, It seems like the best bet doesn't it?

Well, before I do this, let me state that what Pro supporters of this theory seem to use as evidence for there claims is that Greer can "allegedly" be seen to be holding a gun and pointing it at the president at the moment of impact. Well, this is false. And something which can be seen to be false when looking at clearer images of the Zapruder film.

For those interested at this moment in time though, and to add some skeptical balance, here's an "interesting" video from believers of the driver shooting Kennedy theory. You'll notice that what's used in this video isn't the clearer video of the film. Something I doubt is a coincidence:



Well, an interesting video for sure. And an interesting image of an apparent gun. No doubt, right? Well, I, again, find it interesting they use an unclear set of images as evidence. To make up for this, here is a cleaner set:

Here is the cleaned up version of the exact same image from the zapruder film - Even the exact same frame used as evidence in favor of this theory, Frame 312 (Focus on the drivers hands):

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/5683adc28339.jpg[/atsimg]

Still quite hard to see, I know. But It's clear enough to point out that no gun is present here. Instead, both of Greer's hands are clearly on the lower half of the steering wheel, and we can even see his shoulder as he has turned around at this point also.

Here is yet another closer look:

The Red Arrow is pointing to His Left hand. The Blue Arrow is pointing to his Right hand. At this point, please again note this was one single frame before the fatal shot struck Kennedy:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/b440ed1b9ee3.jpg[/atsimg]

(Again, notice Greer is looking at Kennedy (Or Connelly), his hands are on the steering wheel, his shoulder can be seen turned around and no gun is present in his hands - In fact, both his hands are brightly seen and are not even pointing towards Kennedy. Also, wouldn't Connelly and his wife notice a bullet passing millimeters by them? I'm guessing they would have.)

Another theory that I've seen proposed seems to point to some seeing a flash of light in the car here, something that swiftly disappears giving the impression of a gun. Well, for this particular theory, let's take a few more closer looks still to further prove why some think they are seeing a gun in the first place here, when in fact they are actually seeing Roy Kellermans head. How do we plan on doing this? Well, Let's take a look at around 20 Frames starting from Frame 300 of the Zapruder film. Remember at this point, Frame 313 is the fatal head shot so looking at frames before hand, during and after seem sensible.

Here are the images from the Zapruder film:

Btw, please pay particular attention to Kellermans movement also. Notice that when he moves forward, the glare on his head is gone (please see Frame 300 below and why this glare is present), but when he moves back, particularly when the fatal shot strikes Kennedy, he is situated backwards allowing the bright glare to shine on his head giving the impression "something" is here (as the film moved quite fast It's not easily visible) and then he suddenly moves forward after the shot had taken place giving the impression something had been swiftly hidden.

And also please take note of the fact that Greer has turned around already for most of these frames, while BOTH his hands are clearly visible on the steering wheel the whole time.

Now, when looking at the below image of Frame 300, please take note of the red arrow and what it's pointing to as well. It's the sun visor - It's this which has given this theory a lot of supporters as It's this sun visor which gives the impression we are seeing something we are not here as It blocks out the light from the sun when Kellerman moves forwards and shows it when he moves backwards again.

*Please also remember that I had to watch the zapruder film very carefully and crop these images individually from it so they may be slightly different sizes, or cropped in slightly different areas to make them viewable for this thread*

Frame 300:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/63e4cc427d02.jpg[/atsimg]

Frame 301:

***Greer is starting to look at The Kennedy's***

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/56e6b3d5aa78.jpg[/atsimg]

Frame 302:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/e94fd82abffa.jpg[/atsimg]

Frame 303:

***Kelleman starts to move his head backwards at this point causing the glare to appear - Something we can see clearly***

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/baafa0c5bc42.jpg[/atsimg]

Frame 304:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/696d094aa8ae.jpg[/atsimg]

Frame 305:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/92bb5190eaac.jpg[/atsimg]

Frame 306:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/29934de42235.jpg[/atsimg]

Frame 307:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/d0b7902f868b.jpg[/atsimg]

Frame 308:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/e23fb4d73cac.jpg[/atsimg]

Frame 309:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/ba969efbfca9.jpg[/atsimg]

Frame 310:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/c90bfb649760.jpg[/atsimg]

Frame 311:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/92d6118577f5.jpg[/atsimg]

Frame 312:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/bf4e71336af0.jpg[/atsimg]

Frame 313:

***The Fatal Headshot - Still No gun and we can see Greers hands***

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/3fce00b35409.jpg[/atsimg]

Frame 314:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/48ea8a911603.jpg[/atsimg]

Frame 315:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/f29d86c15c6f.jpg[/atsimg]

Frame 316:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/9abee00da59d.jpg[/atsimg]

Frame 317:

***Kellerman Starts to duck***

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/0464c22caf5c.jpg[/atsimg]

Frame 318:

***The Car starts to rapidly speed up causing the blur - Notice we can still vaguely see the glare from Kellerman still, not a gun***

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/8fbbb8e33662.jpg[/atsimg]

Frame 319:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/1f74391d8f60.jpg[/atsimg]

Frame 320:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/2b5a200c4557.jpg[/atsimg]

See, No gun was in his left hand here, and no gun was present in the air also. I'm using the same video the pro supporters of this theory use and It seems to debunk there own claims.

No gun was present by William Greer at Dealey Plaza, and even if there was, I ask, why on earth didn't he (Greer) try and escape after he had shot Kennedy? Why did he take him to the hospital and hang around? Don't forget at this point in time, assuming Greer had done it, he would've had no idea whether he got away with it. Or whether any of the hundreds of witnesses all around him had seen him do it.

Btw, not one of them report such a thing.

But nope, he actually decided to stick around. And IMO he wasn't arrested because there was simply no reason to do so.

Anyway, here's a fantastic video from one of my all time favorite researchers from the JFK Assassination case, Bob Harris.



*A lot of still images from the above video were used in this thred of William Greer also, so credit goes to Bob Harris for them.*

Personally, I consider the theory that states the driver, William Greer, shot the president as pretty much debunked when taking into consideration everything I have added thus far. This being so, I really do hope those whom believe in this theory decide to come into this thread and give there thoughts still.

A debate on this theory would be fascinating, no doubt.

Thanks to all whom read this thread as well btw. I'd really love to hear some thoughts, and hopefully stir up an interesting debate with anyone whom has opinions on the case of who actually fired bullets from there guns at dealey Plaza in 1963.

Thanks..

My Next thread will take a look at the theory which states Jackie Kennedy had shot President John F. Kennedy. A theory many, myself Not included, subscribe to.

Umnmmmm... never noticed this before, I must say, it really looks like the driver shoots JFK, it really looks like he is aiming a gun at JFK´s head and shoots in that video

I wonder what happns now

Originally posted by Vandalour
Umnmmmm... never noticed this before, I must say, it really looks like the driver shoots JFK, it really looks like he is aiming a gun at JFK´s head and shoots in that vidoe

I wonder what happns now

Personally, I disagree. His hands (particularly his left) aren't even pointing at Kennedy.

It's only a theory because we can't see it as clearly as we would prefer (which is why I understand some people claiming Greer was responsible). But there is pretty much no way It could have been him. Someone would have undoubtedly noticed it.

Instead everyone claimed the shots came from the Grassy Knoll and around that particular area. Not one person claimed the shot had come from inside the car Itself. Even Connely himself never once claimed the shot came from inside the car and he was in between Greer and Kennedy.

Edit to add: Btw, after you watch the video, make you you read the thread. It's obvious Greer shot nobody.

Once again glad to read more from you. I must admit that until I read someone elses post about this in one of your other threads, I had never heard this theory before. Having watched the film numerous times over the years it had never occurred to me that someone in the car may have shot him. Which to me says there was nothing to notice in the first place or perhaps my attention had always been focused on Kennedy.

After watching the video that claims the driver shot him, I can see where someone might draw that conclusion if thats what your being told is happening. I can clearly see his left arm never leaves the steering wheel even in the video claiming it does. Your analysis of the head glare IMO is spot on.

My only question is, is the partition between the driver and the govenor just a roof support or is it actually a glassed in partition. If its a glass partition that would eliminate this theory all together. I saw no shattered glass.

reply to post by dalemcfad

After watching the video that claims the driver shot him, I can see where someone might draw that conclusion

Me too. I mean, I don't agree with it but I can see why It's a theory I guess.

Upon taking everything into consideration though, It's an impossibility that Greer shot him.

My only question is, is the partition between the driver and the govenor just a roof support or is it actually a glassed in partition. If its a glass partition that would eliminate this theory all together. I saw no shattered glass.

As far as I'm aware, there was no glass in between Kennedy and Connelly. And between Connely and Greer and Kellerman in the front.

The only glass was the windshield at the very front. Which was actually found to have been cracked by a bullet fragment it seems.

Excellent post !!...have always been interested in the JFK era myself, perhaps because Dallas happened just a few months after I arrived on this rock.

I've never bought into the lone gunman theory. Oswald may have gotten the initial shot off, but the kill shot wasn't his IMHO...

Over the years I've read (& forgotten) quite a bit on this, but I don't clearly recall whether the woman with the camera opposite Zapruder's position (in the white pants next to the lady in the pink coat in the above stills) ever produced any photographic evidence...it would seem that her location would have provided a view of the grassy knoll...

Will you shedding any light on this in future threads? I'll be checking back !!

S&F...BTW

reply to post by ladyjem

but I don't clearly recall whether the woman with the camera opposite Zapruder's position (in the white pants next to the lady in the pink coat in the above stills) ever produced any photographic evidence

Ahh, this womens name is Mary Moorman. Here's one of the images she captured.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/0f08773fb71f.jpg[/atsimg]

According to Jean Hill (the women stood next to her in the red dress) : "Mary Moorman started to take a picture. We were looking at the president and Jackie in the back seat... Just as the president looked up two shots rang out and I saw the president grab his chest and fell forward across Jackie's lap... There was an instant pause between two shots and the motorcade seemingly halted for an instant. Three or four more shots rang out and the motorcade sped away."

This is important as It shows there was more than one shooter. You may find this interesting also:

Some researchers have claimed that another Moorman photograph shows a man on the other side of the wooden picket fence firing a rifle.

Research carried out by Gary Mack, John P. Costella and David W. Mantik for the Discovery Channel in November, 2003, on Moorman's photograph, indicates that the "Zapruder film... which many take to be the closest thing to "absolute truth" in the assassination - has been subject to alteration".

(Source)

Her camera was confiscated by secret service men, so we'll never know whether this other image really did capture anyone in the grassy knoll area.

Will you shedding any light on this in future threads? I'll be checking back !!

I'm looking to start a few more threads on the theories of whom I personally believe was responsible, or is suspected of, firing shots In Kennedy at Dealey Plaza.

Here's a list of threads I'm going to make which I mentioned in my OP also. This is just on the "who did it" theory alone:

SERIES 1: Who Could Have Killed JFK? - Who are the suspects?

Threads:

Did William Greer Shoot Kennedy?

Did Jackie Kennedy Shoot Kennedy?

Did Lee Harvey Oswald Shoot Kennedy?

Did Johnnie Roselli Shoot Kennedy?

Did James E. Files Shoot Kennedy?

Did Jim Braden Shoot Kennedy?

reply to post by Rising Against


All the painstaking research you've done on JFK is outstanding baby !!!

Excellent idea as well to concentrate on one aspect per thread...



No way did William Greer shoot him, agree with you 100% on that.

xx

reply to post by Rising Against


The first time I heard this theory was when I was watching a presentation by the late Gordon Cooper. He was adamant that Greer most certainly did shoot Kennedy and used (what I'm sure he called an edited/unseen before) version of the Zapruder film to make his case.

This was a few years ago and, I must say, I was impressed! It was very clear that when Greer turned he did have what looked like a gun in his hand, and of course, he turned at the exact moment Kennedys head flew off in the other direction. Case closed.

Well, not quite.

What I don't think Cooper counted on was that the Zapruder film would be, over time, improved and made more clear thanks to better software etc. And what we are left with now is the simple fact that what was originally seen as a gun (in the poor quality Cooper version) was in fact merely an illusion cast by the sunlight on the passenger next to him.

That's when I started to see Cooper for the lying scum bag that he was.

Anyways, great thread as usual RA. Here's some additional stuff just to throw in the mix.

You should really write a book

reply to post by LiveForever8

And what we are left with now is the simple fact that what was originally seen as a gun (in the poor quality Cooper version) was in fact merely an illusion cast by the sunlight on the passenger next to him.

Agreed, and this is (from my OP and this video) one of the better images I've ever come across of the assassination (This being Frame 312 - 1 before the fatal shot):

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/b440ed1b9ee3.jpg[/atsimg]

(Arrows are mine - they point to both of his hands - the left of which is where some claim is the gun which we can see is false. Looking closely you can just make out the faint outline of fingers and a thumb also I think but no gun.)

One of the theories states that the gun was seemingly in the air (the one you mentioned). Looking at the above image, we can see It's just the glare from the sun on Roy Kellermans head as he moves back into his seat (the sun visor made no light appear on his head before as he was previously sitting forward which I tried to show in my OP with the still frames), although It appears for a very short period of time (around 14 - 15 Frames in all) giving the impression a gun was brought out, fired, then hidden as he again moves forward shortly after the shooting causing the light to disappear from his head. And admittedly It does look like a gun in some videos because of this illusion (primarily darker videos where we are forced to concentrate on the outline of the light on his head).

So, I guess can understand why some thought they saw a gun in Greers hand, especially Cooper from the videos he would have personally seen.

And the other states that Greer had a gun in his left hand (see image above) and was able to strike Kennedy (despite everyone here hearing a high powered rifle being fired (as well as multiple shots) and hearing it come from the Grassy Knoll area which is why most ran up it in search of the gunman immediately after the shooting).

To make any of the two theories of the driver shooting Kennedy work though, a lot of important and key information really does have to be left out It seems. And even then, It's far fetched going from the video we have as It's never fully clear.

Anyway, thanks for that link LF, and your post. It's appreciated. I hope others decide to check that link out too!

You should really write a book

God, not you too!

reply to post by uk today

Excellent idea as well to concentrate on one aspect per thread...

Yeah, my only worry is this idea becomes incredible boring, lol.

..Then again, I'm making it because I want to get my thoughts and theories out there, It's up to people if they want to read it or not. If they do, then great, If not, they're more than welcome to skip it but the option is there.

Here's the images from LF's link btw. They deserve a post of there own IMO.

See, no gun...At all.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/5a7451888940.gif[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/a8b47c551b6c.gif[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/ee64f52855b8.gif[/atsimg]

(link)

reply to post by Rising Against


Thats also odd in that they all seem to lean forward at the same time. Are they ducking or is the car suddenly being braked? Seems if the car would be accelerating at this point throwing everyone backwards. Just an observation. Not sure if means anything. Peace

reply to post by Rising Against



I've read the driver theory before. I believe in triangulation of several from several shots theory.
That's the best way to snipe a mark.

Originally posted by dalemcfad
reply to post by Rising Against

 

Thats also odd in that they all seem to lean forward at the same time. Are they ducking or is the car suddenly being braked? Seems if the car would be accelerating at this point throwing everyone backwards. Just an observation. Not sure if means anything. Peace

Well, this has actually caused a lot of debate over the years. You see, It seems as though upon hearing the first shot, William Greer (despite him saying the opposite to the Warren Commission), had actually slowed down for some reason. And it was only after the fatal shot struck Kennedy that he suddenly decided to speed up and "get the hell out of there".

Here is an interesting link: The witnesses who claim the car slowed Down

And this link: The witnesses who claim the car slowed Down, Part 2

You see, the Warren Commission claims the car sped up, but at the same time many of the witnesses claimed It slowed down. And guess what? ..I'd believe the witnesses.

Please also see this link btw. It appears that, according to the Zapruder film, upon being struck with the fatal shot, Kennedy's head also seems to move forward as well as suddenly backwards and to the left. Something clearly shown.

My theory, as well as being the theory of others, Is that Kennedy was, at this time, struck with multiple shots at roughly the exact same time. One perhaps from the Grassy Knoll with a high powered rifle (causing the explosion, and the backwards movement to the left), and one from behind perhaps from Jim Braden in the Dal-Tex building (Causing the forward movement - although of course, that is just a theory).

Many of the witnesses report quick shots at roughly the same time after all. This being at the time of the fatal head wound. Kellerman, one of the men inside the car, himself states "a flurry of shells come into the car" which was at the time of the final shot.

Originally posted by SLAYER69
reply to post by Rising Against

 

I've read the driver theory before. I believe in triangulation of several from several shots theory.
That's the best way to snipe a mark.

"That's the best way to snipe a mark" Exactly! I'd assume those who wanted Kennedy dead would have thought the exact same too.

To this day, I don't get how people believe the driver alone could have been responsible for Kennedy's death. It's just not plausible in anyway whatsoever.

Some interesting links (some skeptical, some not):

- Did Greer shoot JFK???

- Zapruder Film Shows JFK's Driver Firing Fatal Head Shot

- Jim Marrs - The Theory JFK's Driver Shot Him

Excellent thread,. This is definetly one of my favorite subjects on here and I think the way you have broken this particular theory down pretty much shows that Greer could not have killed Kennedy. In my opinion this was a far-out scenario which, once the Zapruder film was examined in detail as you have done here, held no water.
There were definetly a team of shooters working that day and although the whole truth may never emerge about it, at least by breaking down different scenarios we may get a little closer to it.
Looking forward to the rest of the threads on this from you, and I for one don't think I'll be bored with them.

I already knew all of this.

Now I want someone to tell me, why a secret service agent, who is riding shot gun in the presidents limo, decided to wear ear plugs that day ? I don't suppose kellermen killerman however you spell the idiots name
got fired for say, lack of interest ? I'll just refer to him as the idiot from now on because he sits there like a ride share dummy. In fact a test dummy would have at least stood the chance of blowing out of the front seat. There by saving the president. Theres no damn way the idiot was ever going back there. He wouldn't even turn around to get the gory details. Total idiot.


Or maybe not.

I hadn't heard of this theory before, but looking at the footage seems quite clear even if he is holding a gun it doesn't seem to be pointing in the right direction and he's still got to aim between the two between him and JFK.

Looking forward to your other threads on this subject, looks like you've done thoroughly done your research.