The esoteric is still exoteric!

reply to post by illuminazislayer


Absolutly, you are totally speaking my language, its so refreshing! Another pic. and something I hadnt picked up on, excellent, cheers!
The sooner we stop seperating into different groups/cliches/classifications/ORDERS the better!

Originally posted by Tamahu

reply to post by "Masonic Light"

 

So then does the Dalai Lama himself and every other aspirant and Adept of the White Lodge (whether they are Hindu, Sufi, Gnostic, Kabbalist, Buddhist, Taoist, etc.) suffer from "homophobia" and "spermophobia" too?
.

“Nevertheless, the man can and should introduce the penis and keep it inside the feminine sex to bring about a divine sensation upon both, full of joy, that can last for hours, withdrawing it at the moment the orgasm is near to avoid the ejaculation of semen." – V.M. Huiracocha

Whoa!! Hold on a minute, I think I may have to smack an r18 warning on this thread!!
So enlightenment is sex, you practise sex and then when you die know how to move up or back or whatever instead of going to hell?
Im confuddled
Also, did you say that the Dalai Lama is a lodge member?
Wow, just, wow

reply to post by inforeal


Thankyou, I have tried to be objective, although I must admit I still feel iffy about the whole thing despite talking to a mason and an occult (initiate?), so whether that means I am a closet un-objective critic or not I dont know. But hey, thanks for contributing!

reply to post by ThePunisher


Umm, ok, that sounded ominous, are you Illuminati?
I dont want an Illuminati run world either by the way

reply to post by 051r15


Thats what I reckon too but masons keep saying that anti-masons (I am not anti-mason, as in the individuals who sign up for good reasons just anti-Freemason lodge) have no proof! I dont know, get rid of all institutions that wanna run everything I say, and lets get back to our roots. Love, equality, working within the community for the community, generosity of spirit and all the rest, thats what we need. No more heirarchys!!

reply to post by Rhebefree


no, just posting when i was drunk again, anyway interesting thread.

Originally posted by Rhebefree
So, in your spiritual belief system, when a person dies it doesnt matter what he has done in life, most will descend to the infernal levels (so hell?), unless he practised (meditation? Kundalini?) to learn to recognize a moment of light (enlightenment?).... Or something like that

First and foremost, Gnosis is not a belief system. In fact the very word Gnosis refers to direct experiential Knowledge, as opposed to mere intellectual knowledge and belief.

Eikasia, Pistis, Dianoia, and Nous

We may start out by studying with the intellect; but what the aspiring Gnostic aims to do, is to go far beyond beliefs by understanding and experiencing:

Imag ination, Inspiration, and Intuition

By being established in Self-Remembering (remembering from moment-to-moment our Buddha Nature and our Innermost who is our "True Self" who is "Non-Self") and in self-observation (by observing all of the actions of our body, speech, and mind), we are entering into the state of Consciousness called Dianoia. This should be our point of reference, if what we wish is to go beyond the cage of the mind.

The quote by Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche referred to in regard to physical death, is in reference to applying the practice of Dzogchen (the highest vehicle of Buddhism) at the time of death. He is not necessarily saying that karma does not matter at all. What he is pointing to, is that physical death provides a powerful opportunity to Realize our own Nature and attain Enlightenment. Although, it is taught that there are two particular types of karma that must always be paid: Karmasaya (related to adultery) and Kamaduro (related to fornication).

Now that goes into some rather subtle aspects of the workings of karma, but the point of my posting of the following links was to show you the quotes that are found therein regarding the Gods, the physical death process, and Enlightenment:

Originally posted by Tamahu
Regarding what happens when our physical bodies die, in relation to Deities/Gods (whom the Vajrayana/Dzogchen teachings affirm are manifestations of the Nature of Mind), you may find the content of the following two posts to be very interesting:

"This question is, Do you believe in the gods?"

"In the first instant after death, it is of no consequence whether in life we were..."

Also:

On Karma

Igneous Rose:

33. "We can rise to the summits of light, only on the steps of love and sacrifice.
34. "We must perform a lot of good deeds for love of humanity.
35. "This is how we pay our debts.
36. "Later, the Lords of the Law must also pay the balance in our favor."

The Yellow Book:

"If the devotee sincerely wishes to correct his errors and tread upon the holy path, then he may ask his Divine Mother to pardon his past karma and She will forgive him.
"Yet, if the devotee does not correct his errors or does not follow the holy path, then it is useless to ask for pardon for she will not grant it.
"The Divine Mother will forgive her truly repented children.
"She can forgive the karma of her children because She knows how Her children behave.
"The Divine Mother can forgive the karma of evil actions from past incarnations.
"When repentance is absolute, punishment is worthless."

Hell, the Devil, and Karma:

"Karma is negotiable and this is something that can greatly surprise the followers of diverse orthodox schools.
"Certainly, some pseudo-esoterists and pseudo-occultists have become too pessimistic regarding the law of action and consequence; they mistakenly suppose that the latter unfolds in a mechanical, automatic and cruel manner.
"Scholars believe that it is not possible to alter such a law; I lament very sincerely to have to dissent with this way of thinking.
"If the law of action and consequence, if the nemesis of existence were not negotiable, then where would divine mercy be?
"Frankly, I cannot accept cruelty in the divinity.
"The real, that which is all perfection, that which has diverse names, such as Tao, Aum, Inri, Sein, Allah, Brahma, God, or better said Gods, etc., can, in no way, be something without mercy, something cruel, tyrannical, etc.
"Because of all of this I repeat in an emphatic manner that karma is negotiable.
"When an inferior law is transcended by a superior law, the superior law washes away the inferior law."

Originally posted by Rhebefree
And what does polygomy verses monogomy have to do with the price of fish???

Everytime you post something I am left with more questions......

The button links in the link you provided (about marraige) dont work for me either

Edit: It seems that confusion arises partly because you are using a computer that goes to the top the page instead of going directly to the linked post.


Anyway, here are the links:

Islam and Polygamy

Practicing Sexual Alchemy/Magic

Qur'an: Day of Resurrection, Jesus and Multiple Wives

Also, if you use the ATS "quote" feature in order to quote a post that has non-working button-links in it, the said quoting-feature will reveal the source of the intended links. I've also figured out that the button-links apparently only work for Apples/Macs.

the mummies of Egypt transmuted their essence into gold (or other precious metals?) and got rid of brains so they wouldnt have an attachment to the body instead they would be free to exist in said metals until someone (an initiate I assume) came along and released them so they could carry on their life through said person and impart valuable knowledge?..... Like a cross between 'Yu Gi Oh' and the Horcruxes from Harry potter OMG!!

Or am I way off?

Well I was mainly pointing out that it is said that there are two types of mummies: Alive mummies and dead mummies.

In regard to the dead mummies and jewelry, honestly I don't fully understand the referenced quote and do not know much about how mummies work; so this is something I'd like to learn more about as well.

Originally posted by Rhebefree
So enlightenment is sex, you practise sex and then when you die know how to move up or back or whatever instead of going to hell?
Im confuddled

Essentially, yes (to bring up a post in an old thread that has recently resurfaced).

Or perhaps better said that Sex and Enlightenment are inseparable.

This is explained in the two links in the above-linked post, and here:

What is Sex?

It is written however, that many celibates–such as Gandhi and Paramahansa Yogananda–reincarnated in Limbo.

Originally posted by Rhebefree
Also, did you say that the Dalai Lama is a lodge member?
Wow, just, wow

Not that the Dalai Lama is a member of a "regular" Masonic lodge under the jurisdiction of the United Grand Lodge of England or something like that.

However, the Dalai Lama did write that he is affiliated with the Theosophical Society (see: The Opening of the Wisdom-Eye), and the Dalai Lama also praised H.P. Blavatsky's book The Voice of the Silence which was printed in Peking under the auspices of the Panchen Lama or Tashi Lama (see also the quotes from Isis Unveiled in my previous post).

"The first Masonic Legislator whose memory is preserved to us by history, was Buddha..." – Albert Pike 33°

"The disciple must learn the Masonic salutes from his own Inner Being. "The Internal Master" must teach them to him." – Samael Aun Weor

Originally posted by Rhebefree
(how does this fit in with reincarnation so that god can become god?)

God is always God.

Yet God experiences life through us, Its Essence(s) (related to Tiphereth).


See also:

Ain Soph and Ain Soph Paranishpanna

Originally posted by Rhebefree
Love, equality, working within the community for the community, generosity of spirit and all the rest, thats what we need. No more heirarchys!!

The Baptism of Jesus

"Christ is not an individual; Christ is the Army of the Voice, the Word of God. No one comes to the Father but through the Son (the Cosmic Christ).

"Within Christ we are all One. Within the Lord there are no differences between one man and another, because we are all One within Him. Thus, individuality does not exist within Him. So, the one who incarnates Christ becomes Him, Him, Him. “Variety is Unity.”

"Therefore, we have to terminate with the personality and the “I” for in order for the Being to be born within us; we have to terminate our individualism.

"If a mystic in a state of ecstasy abandons all of his seven bodies in order to investigate the life of Christ, he will then see his Self (his Glorian) represented in the drama of the passion of the Lord. He will then be his Glorian performing miracles and marvels; he will experience his Self dead and resurrected on the third day; that mystic will occupy the place of Christ and in those moments he shall be Him, Him, Him, because in the world of the Christ there are no individuals; within the Christ there is only one Being that expresses his Self as many.

"When the “I” and the individuality are terminated, then only the values of the consciousness remain; these are the attributes of Eternal Absolute Abstract Space, who only can say, “I Am the way, the truth and the life, I Am the Light, I Am the Life, I Am the good shepherd, I Am the door, I Am the bread, I Am the resurrection.”

"This is how the Being receives the Being of his Being, his “I Am,” which is a breath from the Great Breath within each one of us, our particular ray, He, He, He. The “I Am” is the Inner Christ of every human being, our divine “Augoides,” the Logos. Whosoever receives the Crown of Life has the right to say, “I Am He, I Am He, I Am He.”

"Theosophists talk about the Monad, yet the Glorian is not the Monad, and nevertheless, the Monad emerges from Him. He is our particular ray; that ray is a perfect triad. Only He can liberate us from the Law of Karma. He is the Logoic Ray of each human being. The end of the Law is Christ.

"The Law of Karma is merely the stepmother, the healer that cures us, that is all. Yet, in Christ we are free. Christ is the Logos, the Word; He makes of us free and powerful kings and priests. Whosoever receives the Crown of Life liberates his Self from the Law of Karma.

"He is the Army of the Voice, our resplendent Dragon of Wisdom. He is the Crown of Life, Faith, the Word, the Crown of Justice, the Christ. Under the law we are slaves, yet in Christ we are all free because the end of the Law of Karma is Christ.

“Be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.” - Revelation 2:10

"The attributes of the eternal “I Am” are within the Army of the Voice. Therefore, discard all of your idolatries, religions, schools, sects, orders and lodges and seek your resplendent and luminous “I Am” who dwells within the depth of your Being. He is your only Savior.

Preparation for Initiation 20

"Those who know how to consciously project themselves in the Astral Body, those who know how to settle their negotiations in the tribunals of karma, those who directly receive the teachings within the temples of mystery, those who remember their past reincarnations, are the ones who really know esotericism, even if they have never read a book of occultism. Yes, these are the people who really know esotericism, even if in the world, they are nothing but wretched illiterates, even if they are nothing more than simple cooks, or uncivilized Indians.

"We knew two powerful enlightened beings, which were absolutely illiterate. One was an uncivilized Indian (a Mama) of La Sierra Nevada of Santa Marta (Colombia). The other was the powerful Guru Litelantes, a great Master of karmic justice. These two powerful initiates enjoy the privilege of possessing continuous cognizance. In similar privileged conditions, these two initiates possess teachings that could never be written down, because if they were to be written down, such knowledge would be profaned.

"The great intellectuals, who met these two Gurus, looked at them with disdain because these initiates did not talk like parrots, because they were not full of sanctimoniousness, because they were not intellectuals, because they never went around boasting about their esoteric affairs.

"Notwithstanding, we have known others who have only sporadically, in other words, from time to time, awakened consciousness; these types of devotees are nothing but mere beginners in these matters."

Originally posted by Rhebefree
reply to post by AQuestion

 

Thankyou I will give it a squiz
I do think there is an occult agenda but I think its much more than that too, when you read all the quotes about the supposed ascension and awakening thats coming, the theme is always the same, it always talks about the spirit ascending, not the body, the spirit... sort of like the rapture that christians believe in but its not physical.... I dont know but the whole thing freaks me out!

I don't want to get too off track; but, the math thing is really simple. If I exist (or you exist) then the universe must exist is some format. Zero assumes that nothing can exist, that nothingness is a possibility. If I exist then zero (nothingness) cannot be a true answer to the universe. This is the starting point for the gnostics in a way. They end up promoting the belief that either we are god or that we become god and one. The idea is that in the end there is only one consciousness or self awareness. The "ascension" is their belief that we will become aware of this. I see it differently, I do not believe we become one, we retain our self identity if we choose to define ourselves by our beliefs rather than chasing cookies.

There is a great difference between rapture and ascension. Rapture does not return us to a non-place or oneness. We reunite with others who have chosen to be themselves in heaven. People who have had near death experiences often describe this reuniting. Assume, for the moment, that on this earth you get to make that choice. In order to make your true choice you have to be challenged. Many people tell me how they would fight for this or that and then when confronted they fold like paper cups.

A good example of choice is presented in Revelations. It says that in the great tribulation people will be given the choice of taking a mark, if they do not take it they will not be able to buy or sell. I am using this as an example and it does not require that one believe in the bible to understand the choice. There are many, even on this site, that do not believe in Revelations but do believe we are going to be required to have a chip in us in order to buy and sell (personally I don't see the chip as a "mark" but I still wouldn't take one). Would people accept such a chip, fact is many support it already and some have even taken the chips voluntarily. I have heard Christians say they wouldn't have a choice but to take the chip in order to feed their family.

The goal of gnosticism and all "occult" is pleasure. The goal of Christianity is to know God, not become him. The mystery religions are all about learning how we can control the world and become gods. To understand their beliefs a read of the Rosicrucian training manuals is very helpful. All the mystery schools work the same, you have to prove yourself "worthy" to learn more. We are all one but if they are good little slaves and followers then we get to be with the really cool kids. It is elitist. Be well.

Originally posted by AQuestion
The goal of gnosticism and all "occult" is pleasure....

...It is elitist. Be well.

The Immaculate Conception

"All the principle tools of (Free)Masonry serve in order to work with the stone. Every Master Mason must chisel well his Philosophical Stone. This stone is the sex. We must build the temple of the Eternal One upon the Living Stone (and not build on sand)." – The Perfect Matrimony (p.305)

"Masonic lodges were keepers of this knowledge of The Great Arcanum before degenerating into elitist social clubs that lost the meanings of their own symbols and rituals."

The Secret Doctrine of Anahuac

"Speaking quite frankly and straightforward, we will state: Gnosis is a very natural function of the consciousness, a Perennis et Universalis Philosophy.

"Unquestionably, Gnosis is the enlightened knowledge of the divine mysteries, which are reserved for a certain elite.

"The word ‘Gnosticism’ encloses within its grammatical structure the idea of systems or methods dedicated to the study of Gnosis.

"‘Gnosticism’ implies a coherent, clear and precise series of fundamental elements that can be verified through direct mystical experience:

Damnation, from a scientific and philosophic point of view.
The Adam and Eve of the Hebraic Genesis
The Original Sin and the fall from Paradise
The Mystery of Nahua Lucifer
The Death of the Myself
The Creative Powers
The essence of the Salvator Salvandus
The Sexual Mysteries
The Intimate Christ
The Igneous Serpent of our magical powers
The Descent into Hell
The return to Eden
The Gift of Mephistopheles

"Only the Gnostic doctrines that entail the abovementioned Ontological, Theological and Anthropological bases are part of genuine Gnosticism.

"A Pregnostic system portrays in a concrete, evident and specific manner certain characteristics that in some way could be detected in the Gnostic systems, however, such characteristics are integrated to a conception that is entirely anomalous to revolutionary Gnosticism. Indeed, it is a thinking that is not and nonetheless is Gnostic."

The Sacrament of Baptism

Q: "According to the teachings and scriptures that fall under the term Gnosticism, there was this sort of elitist structure that some people were born with spark... and some are not? How does this teaching respond to that?

A: "It is true; that spark that gives us the capacity to awaken consciousness is that iod, the dot. But that iod not only is sexual energy, it is the consciousness, it is our essence. There are people who were born into the physical world who do not have that spark within. They are what we would call "shells," Klipoth, demons. These are people, physical people, who walk around and do things, but who have no conscience, no consciousness, no sense of right and wrong. They are there just to act as vehicles of karma. They are demons in physical bodies. These are people that we see on the news all the time, that walk in our streets and work with us and talk with us, and play games and tease and make movies and television, and do many things, and we worship them as celebrities and as great writers and great authors and musicians and spiritual leaders, and this and that. They look like everyone else, but they have no conscience and they do not know that they are this. But the fact is those are what we call lost, because they have already abandoned their own Inner God and chose crime instead.

"The danger is there for us to become like that, too. The more we persist in producing actions that are harmful, the more we encase our own consciousness in ego, in karma, in lust and anger and pride. When our consciousness is completely encaged in crime, then our own Inner Being says, "I cannot do anything now, there is no seed that I can use to grow a good tree." This is why Christ says that he will chop down those trees and burn them. That burning is in Klipoth where the chaff, the shell, that comes off the wheat, is taken away and burned. Inside of that seed, the wheat, there is the kernel of consciousness, but that soul can no longer redeem themselves, they do not want it. They are so trapped and enmeshed that, out of compassion, God instituted the abyss. And those seeds are cycled down through those levels of hell in order to purify away all of that impurity, and then after few thousand years of suffering, they can try again.

Q: " So, those people who are lost... is there a way they can fight it...?

A: "There is always the door of redemption. There is always the door of repentance. It is always there. And that is why we see angels working even in the lowest levels of hell trying to save people. Redemption is always there; but it is highly unlikely, because you have to keep in mind that karma is an energy that moves in a certain direction, and when you have instituted an enormous amount of force driving the consciousness in that direction, which is downwards into more materialism, it is highly unlikely for it suddenly to reverse course. It can happen, but it takes a lot of force to push it back the other way. So when we feel ourselves becoming heavier and denser and deeper and descending and getting worse and worse, we have to work twice as hard to return back to the light."

reply to post by Tamahu


Certainly there are many who have gnostic beliefs and they are not all the same in the details. I know Satanists and Masons and many "New Agers" (using a term that is easilly understood rather than labeling them). I do not see them as "evil", I see them as trying to understand the world; but, their methods define them and not just what they say they believe. Same is true for people who call themselves Christians but do not live like Christians.

In looking at any "religion" (spiritual belief set) I attempt to ignore the off shoots and focus on the center of the belief, what it promises. Christianity promises pain and challenge to the followers so that they can develop and then have relationship with God. Relationship means that we both (all) have experiences from our own perspective and then share them, the good and the bad. It presumes that we become our own beings. Gnosticism (at it's center) promotes becoming god like, one with the ultimate being, losing free will (like they do when they channel other entities). By being one it assumes that pain and pleasure go away. The ultimate goal of Buddhists is to grow to a level where they cease having wants, they lose their self identity.

I have no problem with people choosing for themselves which eternity they want, that is the great thing about free will. Let us say that we all want different things. Keeping this supposedly special knowledge secret to only those who these societies choose to allow in is an indication of the true values of these organizations and that is one of control and all gnostic belief groups do this, that is the elitist part in my opinion.

As for the quotes regarding beings that have no consciousness those are also elitist. Angels and demons have consciousness if they are self aware and if they make decisions they are self aware. Even if there are no angels or demons I cannot look at another being and assume they are dead inside. Be well.

Originally posted by AQuestion
"In looking at any "religion" (spiritual belief set) I attempt to ignore the off shoots and focus on the center of the belief, what it promises."

"Gnosticism (at it's center) promotes becoming god like, one with the ultimate being, losing free will (like they do when they channel other entities)."

To clarify, channeling/mediumism is definitely NOT a central aspect of Gnosis or Gnosticism.

Originally posted by AQuestion
Keeping this supposedly special knowledge secret to only those who these societies choose to allow in is an indication of the true values of these organizations and that is one of control and all gnostic belief groups do this, that is the elitist part in my opinion.

It is said that the reason why the Great Arcanum was kept secret for so long, is because of Karma.

Originally posted by AQuestion
As for the quotes regarding beings that have no consciousness those are also elitist. Angels and demons have consciousness if they are self aware and if they make decisions they are self aware. Even if there are no angels or demons I cannot look at another being and assume they are dead inside. Be well.

The quoted lecture in regard to that, is simply saying when someone becomes so entrenched in materialism that they abandon their Inner Buddha, and thereby no longer have any longing to attain any level of Nirvana, that they inevitably will have to enter what Christianity calls the Second Death, which is none other than the descent into the hell realms as described in Buddhism.

Meaning that after the Essence of such a person pays Its karma in the hell realms, It will eventually become purified enough to leave the hell realms as to reascend through transmigration.

It is also said that if an Essence goes through the Second Death 108 X's 3000 (324,000) times, that the said Essence at that point stops transmigrating and enters the happiness of the non-manifest Absolute as a simple, happy, human-elemental; but without attaining Mastery.


Be well as well.

reply to post by Tamahu


Dear Tamahu,

Your ending tweaked my interest. You said that they do not achieve mastery; but become elemental. I am not sure that I get it. I think (and I really am asking) that you mean that the highest those individuals are capable of is less than mastery (godlikeness?) so they become elemental (limited?). I am really not trying to put words in your mouth, I just want to make sure that I do understand what you are saying.

My beliefs are pretty simple. I start with what I know, I know I am aware of pain and pleasure and emotions. Because I have language I can learn to control my emotions and response to pain and pleasure. I can also determine who I want to believe, how I choose to respond to situations. I am aware of the universe (whether it be a represention or material) because of my senses. Even if my senses are faulty I am aware of a environment outside of myself. At that point we must assume that the world is real and others exist or I am all that there is. I am a Christian but that is not where I started from, I started from old school philosophy.

If the outside world is real than I must learn to deal with it. If it is all in my head then I created it for a reason and might as well treat it as real. That is why I must accept that their are other sentient beings beyond me. I am limited and I do not believe I created reality, ergo their is a greater being. I call this being God; but, names matter little, a seperate consciousness that created all of this. What then is the purpose of all of this?

If I am sentient then the greatest fear is boredom, an eternity alone in boredom. An eternity of solitary confinement where I am all there is (God) would be soul killing boredom. The only way to avoid eternal boredom is to have eternal change and challenges. Gnosticism would not agree. For me perfection is not a result, it is a process of continual growth and change; but, that requires that we be eternal or cease being us and return to the primordial soup to find ourselves again. Whether it be 340,000 years or a billion it is not enough if we just keep repeating the same.

I look at consciousness like I look at the universe. Some say the universe will expand forever and others say it will collapse on itself back to the point where the big bang occurred. I don't believe the genie can be put back in the bottle nor do I think it makes sense to. I am in favor of continual change not stasis or comfort. Growing is tough; but, once done who would want to go back to being a six year old, not me.

I read many of the posts on religion and people get so focused on minutia without looking at the whole. I think your discussion is much better. I certainly would not want to say that all gnostic beliefs are summarized by Aleister Crowly, he was a pervert and completely selfish (his own words more or less). Religion (any spiritual belief set) can justify our actions or cause us to think deeper about who we want to be. I do not seek purity, I seek continual growth which must then be continually learned to deal with as new challenges arise. I can happily be alone in my belief and believe others are more than entitled to believe as they will. We don't need to agree on these things and talking about our beliefs with each other may help us to understand our own beliefs better. Be well.

Originally posted by AQuestion

The goal of gnosticism and all "occult" is pleasure.

I'm curious as to how you developed this opinion. After all, Gnosticism in generally has held that matter is evil, which is why many Gnostics were ascetics.

Furthermore, "occultism" deals with what is "occult", or hidden from our natural senses. How can this be construed as "pleasure"?

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by AQuestion

The goal of gnosticism and all "occult" is pleasure.

I'm curious as to how you developed this opinion. After all, Gnosticism in generally has held that matter is evil, which is why many Gnostics were ascetics.

Furthermore, "occultism" deals with what is "occult", or hidden from our natural senses. How can this be construed as "pleasure"?

Firstly let explain my use of the term "occult". No judgement on it, the word means "Knowledge of the hidden", I could have said esoteric or many other terms. Gnosticism does not require the world to be evil, merely imperfect. Gnosticism assumes a return to the perfect is possible and desirable. That is the pleasure that is sought. The idea that we do not need to be challenged once we have the insider knowledge.

When discussing gnosticism there are so many varied schools that absolute commonality is hard to come by. Some gnostics are ascetics; but, I do not agree that that is the majority. For those who are, the self denial here is so that they can prepare for the afterlife. The reuniting with the divine.

Originally posted by AQuestion
My beliefs are pretty simple. I start with what I know, I know I am aware of pain and pleasure and emotions. Because I have language I can learn to control my emotions and response to pain and pleasure. I can also determine who I want to believe, how I choose to respond to situations. I am aware of the universe (whether it be a represention or material) because of my senses. Even if my senses are faulty I am aware of a environment outside of myself. At that point we must assume that the world is real and others exist or I am all that there is. I am a Christian but that is not where I started from, I started from old school philosophy.

If the outside world is real than I must learn to deal with it. If it is all in my head then I created it for a reason and might as well treat it as real. That is why I must accept that their are other sentient beings beyond me. I am limited and I do not believe I created reality, ergo their is a greater being. I call this being God; but, names matter little, a seperate consciousness that created all of this. What then is the purpose of all of this?

If I refer you to links to teachings a lot rather than explaining in my own words, I apologize. The teachings are so vast that I sometimes have no choice but to refer others to quotes and links.

Anyhow, the "conundrum" you've mentioned above, is addressed in Shantideva's Guide to the Bodhisattva's Way of Life, and "I" struggle with it a lot "myself" as I'm sure do many "others".

(Of the Imitation of Christ by Thomas á Kempis is a highly recommended study alongside the above-mentioned work as well)

So perhaps the simplest, yet best answer, is that this can only be resolved through Chastity combined with Prayer and Meditation. Not "meditation" as some vague state, but real scientific Meditation related to for example the Eight-Limbed practice of Raja Yoga and Shamatha & Vippassana Buddhist Meditation. Or the magnificent Philokalia of the Christian Desert Fathers.

Originally posted by AQuestion
If I am sentient then the greatest fear is boredom, an eternity alone in boredom. An eternity of solitary confinement where I am all there is (God) would be soul killing boredom. The only way to avoid eternal boredom is to have eternal change and challenges. Gnosticism would not agree.

Apparently there are many who would much prefer the "boredom" of the bliss of Nirvana over the sufferings of this world.

It is said that the Gnostic Bodhisattva's (such as Jesus) on the other hand renounce Nirvana, in order to teach others the Dharma which leads to the cessation of suffering.

Originally posted by AQuestion
For me perfection is not a result, it is a process of continual growth and change; but, that requires that we be eternal or cease being us and return to the primordial soup to find ourselves again. Whether it be 340,000 years or a billion it is not enough if we just keep repeating the same.

In Buddhism (and in the Gnostic Teachings), it is said that there are endless cycles called Mahapralayas (Great Repose) and Mahamanvantaras (Great Manifestation). The Mahapralayas are we might say the "primordial soup" you refer to. Yet it is said that when the Mahapralaya ends, the Mahamanvantara dawns and those Monads who attained Mastery in previous Mahamanvantaras enter the Cosmic stage again with a recollection of their Mastery from past Mahamanvantaras.

Originally posted by AQuestion
I read many of the posts on religion and people get so focused on minutia without looking at the whole. I think your discussion is much better. I certainly would not want to say that all gnostic beliefs are summarized by Aleister Crowly, he was a pervert and completely selfish (his own words more or less). Religion (any spiritual belief set) can justify our actions or cause us to think deeper about who we want to be.

Well obviously the practices taught by Aleister Crowley lead to degeneration. This is even addressed elsewhere in this very thread, and in many other threads I've participated in.

Originally posted by AQuestion
I do not seek purity, I seek continual growth which must then be continually learned to deal with as new challenges arise. I can happily be alone in my belief and believe others are more than entitled to believe as they will. We don't need to agree on these things and talking about our beliefs with each other may help us to understand our own beliefs better. Be well.

"I do not seek purity". Samael Aun Weor very often said that the Bodhisattvas go beyond good and evil. The Saints often want to attain Nirvana without caring much about the sufferings of others, and they (the Saints) often end up on the Spiral Path of Nirvana. The Path of the Bodhisattva (Samsara and Nirvana as one) is the Straight Path.

The Four Pathways to Liberation

Originally posted by AQuestion
I look at consciousness like I look at the universe. Some say the universe will expand forever and others say it will collapse on itself back to the point where the big bang occurred. I don't believe the genie can be put back in the bottle nor do I think it makes sense to. I am in favor of continual change not stasis or comfort. Growing is tough; but, once done who would want to go back to being a six year old, not me.

The following few short threads/posts have within them an enormous amount of insight condensed into a few paragraphs each:

Reasoning of Arch-Demons to Perform Evil (see Son of Man's reply)

Eternal Recurrance, Spiritual Falls, and Rebirth

Black Magic, Immortality, and the Second Death

Damnation

Originally posted by AQuestion
Dear Tamahu,

Your ending tweaked my interest. You said that they do not achieve mastery; but become elemental. I am not sure that I get it. I think (and I really am asking) that you mean that the highest those individuals are capable of is less than mastery (godlikeness?) so they become elemental (limited?). I am really not trying to put words in your mouth, I just want to make sure that I do understand what you are saying.

In regard to your above questions, see the few paragraphs under the heading "The Two Ways" which is found when scrolling about two-thirds of the way down the following web-page:

Mysteries of Life and Death: The Two Ways

Best Regards

reply to post by Tamahu


Dear Tamahu,

You have clearly done a lot of research, I don't know that I can read all the links right now and apologize. Last night my daughter had a miscarriage and I was at the hospital and up all night with her. I am sort of on the site today to find a little peace and quiet. Keep my mind off things might be a better way to explain it.

I hope I understand what you were saying a little better. The part about some getting rest and then returning to themselves helped, others choose not to. In some ways I think we are close to the same answer. The problem is eternity and who can stand to be themselves for eternity. I do believe we get to choose our eternity and hopefully reconsider our choice.

I like the links; but, I think I prefer reading your take on it, not as the ultimate truth; but, as your personal take on these things. Many years ago I read up on Buddhism and such. My personal journey has been to be myself, I don't want to reincarnate as someone else, I will take the hits and still help others. I don't know what that makes me, it is who I choose to be. No wish to be God and no wish to follow others, my wish is to learn for myself what I can from this experience. I do not believe our spiritual growth is purely individual but see it as participative, a joint effort of learning and sharing. Sharing rather than following, many paths leading to endless possibilities and not to the same place. Sentience in search of it's limits.

Again, this is my take on things and I can only know imperfectly what I am capable of knowing at this point in my journey. It is good to see what others have come to believe on their journey and know that none of us can know perfectly so we can always learn more. Be well and best wishes.

reply to post by AQuestion


I'm sorry to hear that, and do hope that your daughter is doing okay.

Even though we apparently don't agree on some things, it seems that we also are agreeing on some things–albeit in different words–as well.

Anyhow the "Two Ways" link I've referred to in my previous post, is what may answer your main concern related to what I'd posted that tweaked your interest.


Inverential Peace

Originally posted by Tamahu

reply to post by AQuestion

 

I'm sorry to hear that, and do hope that your daughter is doing okay.

Even though we apparently don't agree on some things, it seems that we also are agreeing on some things–albeit in different words–as well.

Anyhow the "Two Ways" link I've referred to in my previous post, is what may answer your main concern related to what I'd posted that tweaked your interest.

Thank, she is much better today. Read the link and found it interesting. I think the difference is that rather than repeating our life, I think we continue evolving from where we are, we still have to learn the lessons but in our way and in our time. It seems to me that what the link describes negates having a true soul mate, a true others. At least not others that we can grow with truly together. Eternally repeating our lives; but, not really together.

Perhaps I can use an analogy. The bible says that when a man and woman commit to one another they become one. Now we know that he didn't mean physically (not even during sex; but, pretty close) and he didn't mean to have the same mind. In the sex act our pleasure becomes one and can be shared, we are as physcially intertwined as we can be and it is the most pleasure we can experience physically (not unlike heaven). This requires a tearing apart to be possible and it appears that all believe that. If you can come apart, you can together and remain you. Therefore no need to repeat anything. Eternity rather than a loop. That is my thoughts on it. Be well.

Originally posted by AQuestion
In the sex act our pleasure becomes one and can be shared, we are as physcially intertwined as we can be and it is the most pleasure we can experience physically (not unlike heaven).

And this is exactly why there is so much emphasis on Yesod, Daath, Sahaja Maithuna, and Karmamudra, in the Gnostic teachings.

Originally posted by AQuestion
Thank, she is much better today. Read the link and found it interesting. I think the difference is that rather than repeating our life, I think we continue evolving from where we are, we still have to learn the lessons but in our way and in our time. It seems to me that what the link describes negates having a true soul mate, a true others. At least not others that we can grow with truly together. Eternally repeating our lives; but, not really together.

In regard to this, I'd like to share something that comes to mind in this moment:

Marriage and Gnosis

"Dion Fortune wrote in her Esoteric Philosophy of Love and Marriage that it is rare to find a marriage of two persons due to the intervention of their Spirits (Monads). This is in relation with the septenary constitution of the human being, or the seven lower Sephiroth of the Tree of Life (physicality, vitality, astral psychism, mentality, volition or will, consciousness and Spirit).

"Most times we find Karmic marriages, or relationships established from past lives from Malkuth and up. Such unions carry a lot of force and attraction because they have been continually given a lot of reinforcement and energy through return and recurrence. This is not bad, and it does not indicate that in such relationships there is no love. But such relationships, while sharing a union of chemistry, vitality, emotionality, mentality, etc., do not consist of marriage within all the planes of cosmic consciousness.

"Ideally we all want a perfect matrimony, which is the union of two beings within all seven realms of consciousness. Yet one does not always begin with such a marriage, but has to work for it. Also, Karma may not allow for such a union to occur immediately or even in this life. This does not mean that persons under such circumstances cannot progress. If a couple is together and there is the true sentiment of love and compassion for one another, then the Divine Mother can work within them.

"The Initiate Gargha Kuichines achieved Mastery even though his wife was against him practicing alchemy. This obviously shows that while they may have had affinity within their physicality, vitality, emotions or mentality, that their wills were directly opposed: Gargha Kuichines using his willpower for Gnosis, and his wife wanting to fornicate. However, he remained faithful to her, gave her his love, and made great progress. She eventually became serious about Gnosis and began to practice with him.

16. For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife? - 1 Corinthians 7

"Now, it may happen that in the work with one's spouse, another person appears who affiliates within all seven planes of the consciousness. This absolutely does not mean we abandon the spouse we have. Dion Fortune speaks of this in the work I mentioned, that for such persons it is more noble to maintain the marriage they've established in this life and to wait for the next life in order to consummate their union with their "divinely ordained marriage." In fact, there can be grave Karmic consequences for abandoning one's marital commitments in this life, even for "noble" and "spiritual" reasons.

"However, we must always take into account the will of God, who has the power and authority to consummate and dissolve marriages. If he needs us to change partners, then we must do so, although this is a very serious and painful Karma (in relation with Karmasaya and Kamaduro, as Twin Brother mentioned). But in terms of our work, we must always be faithful and true to our commitments no matter what. There is more nobility and honor in this."

"Dion Fortune in The Esoteric Philosophy of Love and Marriage wrote that there are three types of relationships: 1) based solely on physical attraction, 2) Karmic relationships in which one re-establishes previous ties, and the most rare 3) cosmic intervention: whereby the Monad arranges the marriage and the union is within all spheres of conscious and unconscious activity.

"The first two relationships are built from Malkuth up, and are most common. Very rare is it to find and work with a perfect matrimony, whereby the Being marries from the higher planes down, not Malkuth and up.

"To be burned by Lucifer can be a good experience if you get back up. This means to overcome the temptations involved with possible amorous relationships outside the Law (and the will of our Being). If you find yourself in a relationship or situation whereby the attraction is strong, and you know it will not take you to the heights of spiritual development you long for, that is a wonderful opportunity to learn about your lower nature. The thing is not to feed and succumb to it, nor to flagellate yourself out of shame. Comprehension absolves suffering.

"The literature of attraction so abundant in book stores is Black Magic: the authors do not take into consideration the will of God, but of fulfilling desire. Therefore, we do not recommend any advice related with such books. The best book for dating comes from the heart, where your Innermost resides. He will orient and guide you to your true spouse.

"As Dion Fortune wrote in the same work, to find one's partner as ordained by cosmic intervention is not a matter of searching. However, it is not a matter of avoiding. The Law arranges for a couple to meet, under specific circumstances, usually of a spiritual nature. There is simply no way to avoid that meeting if one is working seriously on him or herself. Therefore, one must no go out of one's way by changing environment and circumstance, but remain open to what arrives. When it happens, it happens!"

Best Regards

reply to post by Tamahu


Dear Tamahu,

Just before I read your reply I had been thinking about the exact same thing. I had a very long term spouse cheat on me and insist upon divorce. I had wanted to attempt to reconcile and had never been with another. After a time I began dating, a vastly different world from when I married. Other than my ex-wife I had only had one other date and that was in 1977. It was interrupted by moving 3000 miles away. I always knew since the day I met the first girl I dated that she was the one and only one, she knew it too.

I believe that if we have a soul mate, they must spend some time apart so they can continue to grow into themselves. Once growth stops, a time apart is required until they can come back together and continue their journey together. I think the question it answers is why, if we choose truth and love, we can only see more joy in our experiences. Hope that made sense.