The esoteric is still exoteric!

reply to post by Tamahu


Okeydokes then!
Thankyou for the links, I have a lot to peruse! I hope you know a bit about why the egyptians disposed of the brains, I cant seem to stop thinking about it; it seems important for some reason, is it explained in the links you provided? I guess I'll find out!

btw, I see cryptic EVERYWHERE!

reply to post by Rhebefree

The Kabbalah of the Mayan Mysteries

"There are two types of Mummies: Live Mummies and Dead Mummies.

"Dead Mummies are known because the viscera have been placed within alabaster cups.

"The live Mummies, even now, in this century, are still alive."

The Transformation of Energy

"If you look, for instance, in Egyptian mythology, or Mayan mythology you find many sculptures related with jewelry, related with gold. For instance Mummies in Egypt were always found with a lot of gold and it is because there is an occult symbolism or procedure to preserve bodies for something that people do not know about. Moreover, the gold of course is something very important in these cases. The Master Samael talks about the mummies for instance. Most of the mummies were always found with a lot of gold and sometimes the gold was placed inside the cavity of the heart of the mummy. Because the mummies were preserved by ancient initiates in Egypt with the objective of getting the wisdom of the personalities of those mummies in the consciousness of the future bodies of those Initiates according to the law of reincarnation, thus, to acquire that ancient wisdom in order to help humanity.

"There are two types of mummies, alive and dead:

"The dead mummies are being found by many Archeologists but the mummies that are alive, meaning, that the Viscera of those mummies is not out of the body but within, therefore, they are alive. Preserved for the future according to initiation in order to have a type of reincarnation that is unknowable for this human race, something that is a secret. The Master Samael talks about his mummy, which is alive, and that he was using, or he probably is using now."

Regarding what happens when our physical bodies die, in relation to Deities/Gods (whom the Vajrayana/Dzogchen teachings affirm are manifestations of the Nature of Mind), you may find the content of the following two posts to be very interesting:


"This question is, Do you believe in the gods?"

"In the first instant after death, it is of no consequence whether in life we were..."

Originally posted by "Masonic Light"
...stems from the neurotic mind of... (..."Samael Aun Weor").

Originally posted by "Tamahu"

"Neurosis is a very terrible sickness of the soul. In this epoch, people have become neurotic. Neurosis is satanic. We must cultivate sweetness, patience and love. We must educate our children with wisdom and love. We must cultivate in our homes happiness, sweetness and love, because you must know that neurosis damages the lotus flowers of the soul.

"We must teach our children with examples; we should always be happy and joyous. Gnostic homes should be sanctuaries of love and happiness. Neurotic shouts and screams, weeping and crying destroy happiness; thus the white dove of love leaves the heart forever. This is the disgrace of many homes. Live with wisdom and love."

– Logos, Mantra, Theurgy by Samael Aun Weor

Rhebefree, I read every word in your opening post, and I have to thank you for it.

It is not often I see or hear another echo my own thoughts as closely as you have. Well done.

Have they been lying to us for Millenia? Through their religions and their philosophies and their mystery schools and their myriad of spiritual movements? And even worse, are they bringing certain lies into fruition?
Could the truth be so simple as to be immediatly discarded for lies? Could the truth that they dont want us to take hold of simply be that we dont need a Messiah? That we dont need them? That we as one race, have it within ourselves to make our world a better place without the guidance of "ascended masters", possible to become "Christ" like without the need for religions and established doctrines?

Wouldnt the ultimate freedom be to stand on our own two feet and say "No! I write my own destiny! I will not be forced to interpret the mysteries of the universe according to what other men, who would be so arrogant as to think they are above me, would have me believe! I will not bow down to any God, Christ, pope, Government or Throne! I will not allow my life both inner and outer to be dictated and led by those who have shown nothing of themselves but that they are a self serving, patronizing, greedy, megalomaniacal den of theives!"

This sums it all up beautifully! Again, well done.

Originally posted by Rhebefree
I see, thanks for informing me, it's ok, if the chart in the post beneath yours is correct then I dont have to worry so much about masons anyway, its the mystery schools we gotta take down!

It's not. At all.

Do Masons receive lessons from these mystery schools?

No.

Ahh, but what are Christian concepts?

In terming them Christian, I mean it in the most mundane, conventional way possible.

If they are the outward expression of what is said to be esoteric then how do we know the esoteric is not the outward expression of some other "truth", how do the masons who are Christians interpret esoteric teachings, that surely must play a part in your rituals and stuff?

Again, from Joseph Fort Newton:

Indeed, what is called the Secret Doctrine differs not one whit from what has been taught openly and earnestly, so far as such truth can be taught in words or pictured in symbols, by the highest minds of almost every land and language. The difference lies less in what is taught than in the way in which it is taught; not so much in matter as in method.

In other words, there's no "secret" to Freemasonry hidden in the ritual that's somehow different from everything we can tell you about it.

if the chart posted below you is true (and it sure makes sense to me) then wouldnt you feel a tad used?

Probably. The problem is that the Illuminati no longer exists, Freemasonry has nothing to do with Marxism (in fact, earning master's wages was why men became Freemasons in the operative days), Freemasonry has nothing to do with the international banking elite (how the hell does Marxist banking work, anyway?), and the link between Masonry and Rosicrucianism stops at a few members in common.

You have exams!

My gosh thats horrible! Like being in another high skool (you can tell how well I did in my exams :lol

, that settles it, if I reincarnate as a man, freemasonry will not be for me!!

"Exam" may be putting it harshly. It's more of a quiz. And it's harder to fail than it should be.

The sum of your influences is a pretty good indicator of your knowledge? I reckon experiance is a better indicator

Experience is an influence.

or rather experiance, intuition and commonsense should make up the bulk of the teachers that influence your perceived knowledge

All of which are influenced by something, including (your perception of common sense).

Why do we, that includes masons, trust these people/organisations just because they seem to hold a higher truth

Masonry doesn't claim this. At all. Anti-Masons do it for us. Masonry actually tells you that the higher truths are elsewhere, in the book of your religion.

or promise to make you a better person or have social benefits, why cant we individually be our own teachers, our own guides, our own salvation? Why do we feel the need to be part of seperate groups all the time!!?

Because we're social animals, and our impact is heightened in groups.

You realise democracy is a facade right?

I've had the ballots counted out in front of me for my lodge officers, with the exact totals for each candidate read. If democracy is a facade, my lodge secretary is a freaking wizard.

Do go on, though. Tell me how a person becomes a Grand Officer.

So their are no lessons theistic in nature like you said?

Yes. Don't do important stuff without praying first. Trust God and be good to your fellow man. When you take an oath with God as a witness, keep it. The faithful man can expect rewards from God. I don't see any speculation on the nature of God or expected practices beyond basic morality.

Only because we are not allowed a look see for ourselves

Yes you are. I've said numerous times, on this thread and elsewhere, where you can find Masonic ritual. I've also explained in detail the real structure of Freemasonry.

and once we join well we clam up, somewhat dont we?

The ton of Masons here and elsewhere are vocal and helpful. I sought their advice often before becoming a Mason. The "clamming up" is another anti-Masonic smear tactic with no basis in reality.

(haha, I see what your doing here! 1. Yes, all this ascension stuff I see going viral

Except that there's no "ascension stuff" in Freemasonry. It's like saying school is Gnostic because you're expected to learn in one grade before advancing to another.

Because its manipulative and I dont like being manipulated by people

Once again, what of Masonry is manipulative?

Well I personally define both religion and cult by; an organisation, be it large or small, that attempts to lead their flock by a leash dictating how they interpret the supposed "mysteries" of life, while promising social benefits and or rewards, but thats just my humble opinion

Then Freemasonry doesn't fit. There is no dictation on how to interpret Masonic ritual in the least.

(Well going by the chart in the next post freemasonry seems to be a good way to ensure control of some things, are you in banking or politics?

No. No. No. No. No. That's what I'm trying to get across: Freemasonry is the least efficient way possible of doing things like in that chart.

Universal league of mankind? Sounds creepy

Why?

But it still has lessons Theistic in nature? So lessons about God or the beleif of God

There are no lessons "about" God. His nature is left entirely to the individual.

lessons are for learning, learning about God according to a set of prescribed teachings that will help you as you strive to morally ennoble yourself and OTHERS to bring about a universal league of man for the welfare of man...... Sounds exacty like a religion to me..... A creepy religion

Huh. What sounds like a religion to me is something that tells you what God is, what practices (beyond basic morality) he expects of you, and how to worship Him. Which, again, Freemasonry doesn't have.

Also, I think some sort of theological exclusivity plays an essential part in religion. As Freemasonry not only accepts those of all religions but encourages each Mason to practice his chosen religion, it cannot be called exclusive.

Why? Surely if what your learning and doing, if its not psychotic, is going to be for everyones (or just mens?) benefit then anyone should be allowed to become part of this league if they are good people???

Imagine yourself as an atheist. Now imagine you're in an organization that tells you every great or important undertaking should be started with prayer. What would you stand to gain?

Isnt that whoever implemented these organisations just want people who are already.... How do I put this without peeving you off? Subserviant? Maleable? Willing to bow?
Just putting the idea out there

An organization that tells you man is superior to his institutions is a really bad way to get men who are subservient.

Fair enough, so what are these teachings Theistic in nature?

Previously addressed.

And if your rituals and symbols are based on stone masonry, building, architecture, and by your own admission you are creepily trying to bring about a universal "league"

What, exactly, is creepy about people getting along?

of ennoble (noble rank or title, "Elect" then?) men,

No. He means nobility in its modern sense, as in good people. I'm starting to feel like you aim to view this as conspiratorially as possible.

then surely that means that you are complicit in, if however inadvertantly, the establishment, or continuation of an elite world dommination type situation?

No. We attempt to show men of all religions and political opinions getting along and working together for the good of mankind, as an example to others.

But really, in all seriousness when does anybody not do this? From the newspaper, to religous texts, to the forum boards, most people will take things at face value because most people are honest about stuff

Maybe, but honest and correct are not synonyms. I expect any intelligent person to at least check if the information presented to them is correct.

reply to post by Tamahu


I termed Rodriguez "neurotic" because it is apparent that he suffered from several phobias, most notably homophobia and spermophobia.

He was originally heavily influenced by Krum-Heller's Fraternitas Rosicriciana In Antiquitas, where he derived the concepts of Thelema and importance of sex magic indirectly from Crowley (as Krum-Heller had been a student of Crowley's and member of the O.T.O.).

Crowley of course was neurotic too, but at the other extreme. Rodriguez, being a spermophobic, could not except the Crowleyan doctrine of spermo-gnosis, and therefore had to re-invent Thelema to suit his own neurosis.

reply to post by Rhebefree

Originally posted by Rhebefree
I prefer to see it as we are part of the creative Essence of God, the result of the light of the feminine uniting with the rhythm of the masculine, that is why we are all of us a bit of male and a bit of female.Two energies joined to produce a third entirely new! This third is the essence of life, cosmic sperm (if your not too immature to think of it that way without laughing, which Im not! haha!), there is no point to it, no evolution or ascension or whatever, just life for the extension of life!

Unification of masculine and feminine energies is the perfect representation of what soul/consciousness is, in fact in many ancient cultures people worshiped deities with androgynous features. And I believe they worshiped the collective consciousness (oneness of all that is above as it is below) in a symbolic form of an androgynous deity. The more divisions (on the basis of race, sex, religions, external god/supreme being etc.) we create among ourselves through our belief systems, the farther away we drift from spiritual truth.
www.multidimensions.com...

You live there in your true androgynous state. You no longer feel alone in any way because your Soul is the unification of your male and female energy. You and your Divine Complement, which is the completion of your true androgynous self, live in unified consciousness with the All That Is.

Higher echelons of control structure are all patriarchal male dominated societies, this is another reason why they can never attain any type of spiritual enlightenment. Members of those societies are hugely misled.
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/4342064c39eb.jpg[/atsimg]
It is all in the symbolism....

reply to post by "Masonic Light"


So then does the Dalai Lama himself and every other aspirant and Adept of the White Lodge (whether they are Hindu, Sufi, Gnostic, Kabbalist, Buddhist, Taoist, etc.) suffer from "homophobia" and "spermophobia" too?

"Purify your heart, clean your thoughts, curtail your appetite and conserve the semen.

"If thoughts are durable, so too will be the semen; if the semen is durable, so also will be the power; if the power is lasting, the Spirit will be as well.

"The power of the kidneys is located under the symbol of Water. When the impulses are roused, it flows downwards, goes outward, and produces offspring.

"When it is directed back by the power of thought, filtering upward to the crucible of the creator, it refreshes and nourishes heart and body, it is the reflux method." – Secret of the Golden Flower

"Your Holiness, what do you think of homosexuality?"

Dalai Lama: "It's part of what we Buddhists call 'bad sexual conduct.'

"Sexual organs were created for reproduction between the male element and the female element and everything that deviates from that is not acceptable from a Buddhist point of view. Between a man and [another] man, a woman and another woman, in the mouth, the anus, or even using a hand."

“Instead of the coitus which reaches the orgasm, sweet caresses, amorous phrases and delicate touching should be lavished reflectively, keeping the mind constantly separated from animal sexuality, sustaining the purest spirituality as if the act were a true religious ceremony.

“Nevertheless, the man can and should introduce the penis and keep it inside the feminine sex to bring about a divine sensation upon both, full of joy, that can last for hours, withdrawing it at the moment the orgasm is near to avoid the ejaculation of semen." – V.M. Huiracocha

"Actually, in this case the sexual organ is utilized, but the energy movement which is taking place is, in the end, fully controlled. The energy should never be let out. This energy must be controlled and eventually returned to other parts of the body." – H.H. the Dalai Lama

"The Yogis say that that part of the human energy which is expressed as sex energy, in sexual thought, when checked and controlled, easily becomes changed into Ojas, and as the Muladhara guides these, the Yogi pays particular attention to that centre. He tries to take up all his sexual energy and convert it into Ojas. It is only the chaste man or woman who can make the Ojas rise and store it in the brain; that is why chastity has always been considered the highest virtue. A man feels that if he is unchaste, spirituality goes away, he loses mental vigour and moral stamina. That is why in all the religious orders in the world which have produced spiritual giants you will always find absolute chastity insisted upon." – Swami Vivekananda

"Sexual transgression, refers to another's spouse, those who are close relatives, or not in their right minds, or deliberately having sex at an improper place or time. Included are intercourse in forbidden parts of the body, such as the hands [masturbation]." – The Dzogchen Master Longchenpa

"Brahmacharya literally means Achara or conduct that leads to the realization of Brahman or one’s own Self. It means the control of semen, the study of the Vedas (scriptures) and contemplation on God. The technical meaning of Brahmacharya is self-restraint, particularly mastery of perfect control over the sexual organ or freedom from lust in thought, word and deed." – Swami Sivananda

"As the sexual act is prolonged, as the delightful caresses of adorable ecstasy increase, one feels an enchanting spiritual voluptuousness. We are then charging ourselves with universal electricity and magnetism; terrifying cosmic forces accumulate in the depths of the soul; the chakras of the Astral Body sparkle; the mysterious forces of the great cosmic Mother flow through all the channels of our organism.

"The ardent kiss, the intimate caresses, are transformed into miraculous notes which movingly resound within the aura of the universe.

"We have no way of explaining those moments of supreme pleasure. The serpent of fire is agitated; the fires of the heart are enlivened and there upon the forehead of the sexually united beings shine the terrifying rays of the Father, full of majesty.

"If man and woman would know how to withdraw without the spasm, if in those moments of delightful enjoyment they would have the willpower to control the animal ego, and if at that point they would retire from the sexual act without ejaculating the semen (neither inside the womb, nor outside of it or to the side of it, nor in any other place) they would have then performed an act of sexual magic. This is what is called in occultism the Arcanum A. Z. F.

"With the Arcanum A. Z. F., we can retain all that marvelous light, all those cosmic currents, all those divine powers. Then, Kundalini, the Sacred Fire of the Holy Ghost, awakens in us and we become terribly divine Gods.

"However, when we ejaculate the semen, the cosmic currents merge with the universal currents and then penetrate the souls of the two beings with a bloody light, the luciferic forces of evil, fatal magnetism. Then, Cupid leaves crying. The gates of Eden are locked; love becomes disillusionment. Disenchantment arrives and the black reality of this valley of tears is all that remains.

"When we know how to withdraw before the sexual spasm, the igneous serpent of our magical powers awakens. The Kabbalists speak of the Ninth Sphere. The Ninth Sphere of the Kabbalah is sex.

"The descent into the Ninth Sphere was, in the ancient Mysteries, the highest trial to prove the supreme dignity of the hierophant. Hermes, Buddha, Dante, Zoroaster, etc. had to descend to the Ninth Sphere in order to work with the Fire and Water, the origin of worlds, beasts, humans and Gods.

"Every authentic and legitimate White Initiation begins there."

Even though Huiracocha (Arnold Krumm-Heller) and Aleister Crowley may have moved amongst, in a manner of speaking, some of the same occult circles; Aleister Crowley's teachings come from a different stream (i.e. Papus and Jules Doinel) than the Gnostic Thelemite teachings of Huiracocha and Samael Aun Weor.

This is explained in the following three links, regarding Basilides (Dr. Peithmann), Huiracocha, and Samael Aun Weor:

"It lies, not of Gnostic Liturgy Crowley: Papus, Reuss, Crowley and the Church of Jules Doinel"

"Seven reasons to prove that Krumm-Heller was against Aleister Crowley."

"What lies behind both those who speak ill of the Master Samael."

"Those Who Claim They Are True Gnostic Schools"

"At first glance, you cannot see what is happening in the depths of the ocean by the shape of the wave. In the same way, all the rifts and battles of the superficial level merely reflect tremendous battles being waged in the internal worlds, in combination with the ascending or descending paths of the combatants, and the initiatic requirements of each.

"Yet, when one has some experience in these matters, one realizes that this is the way it has always been, and it is the way it will always be, so long as the ego remains with humanity. The fact is that movements and schools are vehicles which change drivers from time to time, and those drivers are on the one hand the Monads who are using their human souls to accomplish missions, and on the other hand the demons who are trying to advance their own causes. What is most interesting is that in the space of a breath a movement can shift from being guided by an Initiate on the ascending scale, to being guided by a demonic intelligence, and none of the members of that group will have a clue about it. Yet they go on arguing about who is the best, who has the most knowledge, etc.

"This happened even with the chief of a worldwide religious order, whose lineage contained back-to-back opposites: at one moment the supreme head was really the great demon Jahve, and yet another leader (just before or just after Jahve) was actually a great Initiate of the White Lodge. (Do not bother asking me who I am talking about, for I will say no more about it).

"Yet people go on assuming that the movement defines the members and leaders, when it is really the other way around. Just because someone calls himself Gnostic does not make him an angel.

"Besides, most of the "history" of movements (and humanity) is all conjectural anyway. If you were there and a part of it, then I would be willing to consider it. But if you were not, then how can you say with confidence that said history has any truth in it?"

Originally posted by Tamahu


So then does the Dalai Lama himself and every other aspirant and Adept of the White Lodge (whether they are Hindu, Sufi, Gnostic, Kabbalist, Buddhist, Taoist, etc.) suffer from "homophobia" and "spermophobia" too?

No.

Neither do they suffer from Rodriguez's delusions.

reply to post by "Masonic Light"


Are perhaps the quotes from various Adepts of the White Lodge that are posted in my previous post not visible to other ATS members?

I ask not only because of your response, but also because there have been links I've posted here that work just fine for me, but not for others.

reply to post by Rhebefree


I think I understand your concerns.

I want to complement you on your objectivity and lack of dogmatic utterances.

It is good to see a sincere seeker after truth.

Anyway, I can contribute this:

If anyone knows your nature then they can guide you, and they have a right to do it, but they don’t have any obligation to do it.

That may be why they say:

The teacher finds the student; when the student is ready the teacher appears.

Originally posted by Rhebefree
Ok I just checked out the thread Tamuhu mentioned, which explains a bit better about the whole root race and sub race thing, and I swear it just gets weirder and weirder! Seriously, I really dont understand why you people want to believe this stuff! A seventh sub-race who is evolved from the fith root race, which is apparently not just white people but all of us whom you call aryans, is coming and the rest of us are going to die!!??? WTF!!

My head hurts

Im logging off now and taking a panadol, I cant believe what I just read......

hello dear, we are sorry that you are irate with needing panadol etc, take it easy and drugs are not the answer, unless the different spiritual conduits for questing is another topic, we are in the process of eliminating the corrupters in masonic circles who dared to stray from there obligations as the teachings always taught and they can never be, it is as you suspect, you get told what you need, or to learn, this is the way it works, keep practicing and learning, but we would like to say we was weak (pretended) and did not have control, but we pretend the truth is IT IS ALL UNDER CONTROL!!!.

masonic light, a true or partial hollywood insider, we would like to see masoniclight break free from there chains, as much as he can for starters, and look into his masonic obligations as he says he is a serious researcher, but not to take it as a joke or think he can take the piss, like some of them think they can do, is he really interested though, i think he could have potential though, out of a group who are some destined for destruction at some time or other (they broke there oaths), as fate goes around.

Originally posted by ThePunisher
masonic light, a true or partial hollywood insider, we would like to see masoniclight break free from there chains, as much as he can for starters, and look into his masonic obligations as he says he is a serious researcher, but not to take it as a joke or think he can take the piss, like some of them think they can do, is he really interested though, i think he could have potential though, out of a group who are some destined for destruction at some time or other (they broke there oaths), as fate goes around.

The British have some funny expressions.

I'd wondered if he was "taking the mickey" by posting that "spermophobia" link.

Personally, I would rather trust the words of a classic mafia thug over those of any who claim to be "Freemasons", or support their "gentleman's club", which by the way amounts to pretty much the same thing as organized crime. Now, if we were to rationally discuss the secrets of a society which claims to not be a secret at all, that's fine. But, from my own perspective, any who claim to be a part of them immediately lose credit since I know for a fact that the "dart board effect" is in play. This means that the lower ranks and initiates know nothing about the inner levels, and will not amount to being helpful in any case. If anyone here could describe the ties between the Catholic Church and their Knights of Malta honestly, perhaps I will withdraw my claim --otherwise, I am resolved to remain where I stand on this issue.

Originally posted by 051r15

If anyone here could describe the ties between the Catholic Church and their Knights of Malta honestly, perhaps I will withdraw my claim --otherwise, I am resolved to remain where I stand on this issue.

Have you ever read (by H.P. Blavatsky who was a Mason of the Egyptian Rite*) Isis Unveiled (or at least the following chapter of Isis Unveiled) ?

"The Spurious Order of Malta", "(Contemporary) MASONIC TEMPLARISM HATCHED IN A JESUIT COLLEGE.", etc.

"It is a mistake to state that the (Knight Templars) Order became only later anti-Catholic. It was so from the beginning..."

"That we may not be accused of vain boasting, we shall give the keys to several of the secret ciphers of the most exclusive and important of the so-called higher Masonic degrees. If we mistake not, these have never before been revealed to the outside world (except that of the Royal Arch Masons, in 1830), but have been most jealously guarded within the various Orders. We are under neither promise, obligation, nor oath* (Tamahu: See the above-linked "H.P. Blavatsky's Masonic Patent"); and therefore violate no confidence. Our purpose is not to gratify an idle curiosity; we wish merely to show Masons and the affiliates of all other Western societies -- the Company of Jesus included -- that it is impossible for them to be secure in the possession of any secrets that it is worth an Eastern Brotherhood's while to discover. Inferentially, it may also show them that if the latter can lift the masks of European societies, they are nevertheless successful in wearing their own visors; for, if any one thing is universally acknowledged, it is that the real secrets of not a single surviving ancient brotherhood are in possession of the profane.

"Some of these ciphers were used by the Jesuits in their secret correspondence at the time of the Jacobin conspiracy, and when Masonry (the alleged successor to the Temple) was employed by the Church for political purposes."

– Isis Unveiled

See also:

Gnosis and the Knights Templars

reply to post by Tamahu


So, in your spiritual belief system, when a person dies it doesnt matter what he has done in life, most will descend to the infernal levels (so hell?), unless he practised (meditation? Kundalini?) to learn to recognize a moment of light (enlightenment?).... Or something like that (how does this fit in with reincarnation so that god can become god?), the mummies of Egypt transmuted their essence into gold (or other precious metals?) and got rid of brains so they wouldnt have an attachment to the body instead they would be free to exist in said metals until someone (an initiate I assume) came along and released them so they could carry on their life through said person and impart valuable knowledge?..... Like a cross between 'Yu Gi Oh' and the Horcruxes from Harry potter OMG!!
Or am I way off? And what does polygomy verses monogomy have to do with the price of fish???

Everytime you post something I am left with more questions......

The button links in the link you provided (about marraige) dont work for me either

reply to post by 051r15


Thankyou I'm glad you enjoyed the read! It took me a long time to reach the conclusions I did and even longer to accept them, having grown up in the church it was hard for me to wrap my head around what I now embrace....
Anyho, thanks for posting

Originally posted by OnTheLevel213

Originally posted by Rhebefree
I see, thanks for informing me, it's ok, if the chart in the post beneath yours is correct then I dont have to worry so much about masons anyway, its the mystery schools we gotta take down!

It's not. At all.

(Then what do you think we should be doing to get outve the mess we are in? If TPTB arent TPTB, then who do you think is in charge? Or do you think no-one is, that there is no conspiracy anywhere?)

Do Masons receive lessons from these mystery schools?

No.

(Why were masons so secretive until recently. that is to say recently in terms of history, it surely couldntve been because of the church all this time? Isnt the pope a mason?)

Ahh, but what are Christian concepts?

In terming them Christian, I mean it in the most mundane, conventional way possible.

(What I meant is that there is so much info out there, evidence it is said, that Christian isnt even Christian)

If they are the outward expression of what is said to be esoteric then how do we know the esoteric is not the outward expression of some other "truth", how do the masons who are Christians interpret esoteric teachings, that surely must play a part in your rituals and stuff?

Again, from Joseph Fort Newton:

Indeed, what is called the Secret Doctrine differs not one whit from what has been taught openly and earnestly, so far as such truth can be taught in words or pictured in symbols, by the highest minds of almost every land and language. The difference lies less in what is taught than in the way in which it is taught; not so much in matter as in method.

(Yes, my point exactly)

In other words, there's no "secret" to Freemasonry hidden in the ritual that's somehow different from everything we can tell you about it.

(Except the way in which it is taught differs from how we are taught)

if the chart posted below you is true (and it sure makes sense to me) then wouldnt you feel a tad used?

Probably. The problem is that the Illuminati no longer exists, Freemasonry has nothing to do with Marxism (in fact, earning master's wages was why men became Freemasons in the operative days), Freemasonry has nothing to do with the international banking elite (how the hell does Marxist banking work, anyway?), and the link between Masonry and Rosicrucianism stops at a few members in common.

(So we are told)

You have exams!

My gosh thats horrible! Like being in another high skool (you can tell how well I did in my exams :lol

, that settles it, if I reincarnate as a man, freemasonry will not be for me!!

"Exam" may be putting it harshly. It's more of a quiz. And it's harder to fail than it should be.

(I was joking with you..... Sorry)

The sum of your influences is a pretty good indicator of your knowledge? I reckon experiance is a better indicator

Experience is an influence.

(I thought you meant human influences, my bad)

or rather experiance, intuition and commonsense should make up the bulk of the teachers that influence your perceived knowledge

All of which are influenced by something, including (your perception of common sense).

(Hey, very good! However we all contain the building blocks of commonsense and intuition, even if our enviroment shapes it somewhat, deep down its still there pure and unviolated and eager to have a say)

Why do we, that includes masons, trust these people/organisations just because they seem to hold a higher truth

Masonry doesn't claim this. At all. Anti-Masons do it for us. Masonry actually tells you that the higher truths are elsewhere, in the book of your religion.

(Allright I get the point, its a social club for men who believe in a god)

or promise to make you a better person or have social benefits, why cant we individually be our own teachers, our own guides, our own salvation? Why do we feel the need to be part of seperate groups all the time!!?

Because we're social animals, and our impact is heightened in groups.

(Yes pack mentality, hive mind and all that, hence why we will never set ourselves free)

You realise democracy is a facade right?

I've had the ballots counted out in front of me for my lodge officers, with the exact totals for each candidate read. If democracy is a facade, my lodge secretary is a freaking wizard.

Do go on, though. Tell me how a person becomes a Grand Officer.

(

I can sense sarcasm you know! Ok I'll bite, how about TPTB decide who are going to be your "leaders" and you all get to vote on one of them, which is exactly what they want!)

So their are no lessons theistic in nature like you said?

Yes. Don't do important stuff without praying first. Trust God and be good to your fellow man. When you take an oath with God as a witness, keep it. The faithful man can expect rewards from God. I don't see any speculation on the nature of God or expected practices beyond basic morality.

(Yes, ok but that still doesnt take away from my point that people in secret societies could be tools for TPTB just as much as people who are simply just religous (regardless of whether you are taught to perceive things in an esoteric light or not))

Only because we are not allowed a look see for ourselves

Yes you are. I've said numerous times, on this thread and elsewhere, where you can find Masonic ritual. I've also explained in detail the real structure of Freemasonry.

(Yes and we will never believe you! You want to know why? Because you are part of the system!!!)

and once we join well we clam up, somewhat dont we?

The ton of Masons here and elsewhere are vocal and helpful. I sought their advice often before becoming a Mason. The "clamming up" is another anti-Masonic smear tactic with no basis in reality.

(Fine masonry has a history of "clamming up" then, bad PR is hard to shake)

(haha, I see what your doing here! 1. Yes, all this ascension stuff I see going viral

Except that there's no "ascension stuff" in Freemasonry. It's like saying school is Gnostic because you're expected to learn in one grade before advancing to another.

(Yes and havent I already apoligized for making connections between masonry and Blavatsky's book when clearly it was Rosicrucians I shouldve made the connection to? If not, I apoligize. However, my stipulation that you are being used does not change...... OMG school is Gnostic???! I knew it!)

Because its manipulative and I dont like being manipulated by people

Once again, what of Masonry is manipulative?

(I was refering to your question regarding why I thought that a Gnostic, secret doctrine styles, takeover was ominous in my opinion, I am led to believe that they believe that we "need" to be "forced" to see things their way and "evolve" and so they plant little clues and riddles and whatnot everywhere for us to chase after and spread their propoganda via books and the web making us think we have found the truth (refer to my OP), I wasnt attacking Masonry I was speculating that they could be being manipulated the same way many believe religions are being manipulated)

Well I personally define both religion and cult by; an organisation, be it large or small, that attempts to lead their flock by a leash dictating how they interpret the supposed "mysteries" of life, while promising social benefits and or rewards, but thats just my humble opinion

Then Freemasonry doesn't fit. There is no dictation on how to interpret Masonic ritual in the least.

(Ok)

(Well going by the chart in the next post freemasonry seems to be a good way to ensure control of some
things, are you in banking or politics?

No. No. No. No. No. That's what I'm trying to get across: Freemasonry is the least efficient way possible of doing things like in that chart.

(Why? Isnt it a social climbing "betterment" group?(according to you))

Universal league of mankind? Sounds creepy

Why?

(I dont know, maybe because after attempting to read 'the secret doctrine' everything that sounds like it might involve a tightly knit group of "noble" men implementing a universal anything sounds dodgy!)

But it still has lessons Theistic in nature? So lessons about God or the beleif of God

There are no lessons "about" God. His nature is left entirely to the individual.

(His?)

lessons are for learning, learning about God according to a set of prescribed teachings that will help you as you strive to morally ennoble yourself and OTHERS to bring about a universal league of man for the welfare of man...... Sounds exacty like a religion to me..... A creepy religion

Huh. What sounds like a religion to me is something that tells you what God is, what practices (beyond basic morality) he expects of you, and how to worship Him. Which, again, Freemasonry doesn't have.

(Ok, it still sounds creepy)


Also, I think some sort of theological exclusivity plays an essential part in religion. As Freemasonry not only accepts those of all religions but encourages each Mason to practice his chosen religion, it cannot be called exclusive.

(That I find interesting, are you taught that each mans god is the same god? The architect of the universe?)

Why? Surely if what your learning and doing, if its not psychotic, is going to be for everyones (or just mens?) benefit then anyone should be allowed to become part of this league if they are good people???

Imagine yourself as an atheist. Now imagine you're in an organization that tells you every great or important undertaking should be started with prayer. What would you stand to gain?

(I know atheists who are interested in religion, I'd imagine they could learn a lot in masonry if you are all encouraged to follow your different gods)

Isnt that whoever implemented these organisations just want people who are already.... How do I put this without peeving you off? Subserviant? Maleable? Willing to bow?
Just putting the idea out there

An organization that tells you man is superior to his institutions is a really bad way to get men who are subservient.

(Masonry tells you that men are superior to his institutions fine but not to god, you must still serve god whoever he may be)

Fair enough, so what are these teachings Theistic in nature?

Previously addressed.

And if your rituals and symbols are based on stone masonry, building, architecture, and by your own admission you are creepily trying to bring about a universal "league"

What, exactly, is creepy about people getting along?

Nothing, if they are not involved with an organisation that they have to swear allegance to, which is theistic in nature and made up of only men

of ennoble (noble rank or title, "Elect" then?) men,

No. He means nobility in its modern sense, as in good people. I'm starting to feel like you aim to view this as conspiratorially as possible.

(Of course I am! This is a conspiracy website! There are more loons than me running about than masons like you, so get used to it!!)

then surely that means that you are complicit in, if however inadvertantly, the establishment, or continuation of an elite world dommination type situation?

No. We attempt to show men of all religions and political opinions getting along and working together for the good of mankind, as an example to others.

(Yes, many groups share that same rhetoric, yet little seems to change despite our myriad of groups and organisations and religions and philosophies, that only allow certain people, all devoted to the "betterment" of mankind. We dont need organisations, we need to get some guts!)

But really, in all seriousness when does anybody not do this? From the newspaper, to religous texts, to the forum boards, most people will take things at face value because most people are honest about stuff

Maybe, but honest and correct are not synonyms. I expect any intelligent person to at least check if the information presented to them is correct.
(True but many dont, even Ive been guilty of it every now and then, although I dont think Im any less intelligent for it just a bit too gung ho maybe))

Again thankyou for your contribution, if I have offended you, it was not my intention, the goal of the thread was not to paint Masonry as the bogeyman but as possibly being in the same boat as the rest of us. If you dont think that masonry is a part of said boat, or if you even doubt that the boat even exists, then obviously we will never agree, so maybe we should just agree to disagree because I dont like arguements.... I have learnt a bit that I didnt know though so thanks for that!

Oh and by the way, the Illuminati do exist, check out my links (they dont particulrly like masons either apparently, looks like you guys are getting it from all sides!)