Paul The First Heretic

reply to post by Akragon

Originally posted by Akragon
unfortunatly i don't believe any sacrifice is needed other then your own... even back in that day it was simply a rediculous idea... Shedding the blood of the innocent...
…

Symbolic rituals are NOT needed for anything... they are only needed to solidify the beliefs of converts and believers in said religions.

…
And since i don't believe in ANY religion... i also reject any form of needed "ritual" behavior.

Well, believe it or not….I actually agree with you!


The only reasons I brought up the Rabbi is because he realizes that’s it all about repentance and less about sacrifices.


You are right though to reject, the rituals. There are many verses in the Old Testament, which specifically state, that God did not require animal sacrifices, at all. In fact, Jesus hints towards this himself, in the New Testament.

Originally posted by Akragon
Yes i know Jesus was supposedly the "sacrificial lamb"... though i also don't buy into the churches ideas of what Jesus purpose was either.

Strangely enough, I have a slightly different take on things myself. I do in part though go along with much of what sacgamer25 wrote, on the previous page. I especially see the resurrection of Jesus, as being more important than his death. But of course, you can’t have a resurrection, without a death.


- JC

reply to post by Joecroft


You are correct my friend... his resurection was the second most important thing that happened... the first being his life / example he left...

But again its not important in the way the churches want you to believe... His return proves life after death...

5But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou?

6But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart.

7Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9Of sin, because they believe not on me;

10Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

11Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

12I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

15All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

16A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.


That comforter is His return... the spirit of love is the spirit of truth because with love one can find truth in all things... And those that know and understand that love do not "speak for himself" or work of himself, but of the spirit that is within all man...

Its the realization of that spirit which brings that love for all...

His return proves life after death... which is "the greatest comforter"

reply to post by Joecroft

. . . God did not require animal sacrifices, at all . . .

We are Cain.
Abel means something like, insubstantial, or, like the mist that dissipates with the sun.
Abel's sacrifice of the lamb or whatever was accepted and then he gets killed.
What this means is that there are no one left on earth who God accepts sacrifices from.
Seth took another approach, where his sons called on the name of The Lord.
The Lord told Cain something really odd, like, "Don't worry, I will provide something for you".
Which sounds reminiscent of the Abraham and Isaac story.
But of course we know he did not pay too good of attention to that advise
and decided to take matters into his own hands.

reply to post by jmdewey60

Originally posted by jmdewey60
The Lord told Cain something really odd, like, "Don't worry, I will provide something for you".
Which sounds reminiscent of the Abraham and Isaac story.
But of course we know he did not pay too good of attention to that advise and decided to take matters into his own hands.

Most Christian theology sees the Abraham and Isaac story, as a foreshadowing of events to come later, in regards to God giving us his one and only son. Many non-religious people see this testing of Abraham, as barbaric, but of course it was a test of faith and God never intended to have Abraham harm his own son.


I personally see the story as a parallel to God having to sacrifice his own son, to save us. In the Abraham story, God was showing us just how hard it is to give up your son, even from a human (Abraham) perspective. Of course Jesus laid down his life to save/help others, but IMO I don’t see this as being in connection, to any blood ritual sacrifice, to appease a wrathful God.


- JC

reply to post by Akragon

Originally posted by Akragon
You are correct my friend... his resurection was the second most important thing that happened... the first being his life / example he left...

Yes, this is what I actually believe, in that it’s the message that Jesus died to bring, which saves a person. Jesus came to teach people about God and to bring them closer to knowing God, by his teachings and life example.


God knew in advance that men would reject the truth and that Jesus would be killed; because God knows all things ahead of time. But God/Jesus did it anyway, out of love, so that we could come to know God through him, and ultimately receive the Holy Spirit. Without Jesus teachings, none of those things I just mentioned would be possible.


Peace be with you…


- JC

reply to post by Joecroft


Bravo!!

I applaud you sir...

reply to post by Joecroft

. . . of course it was a test of faith . . .

Maybe the stories are set in contrast to each other.
The Lord said to Cain, after his sacrifice did no please Him, "Is it not true that if you do what is right, you will be fine?"
Then gives Cain an order to get a grip on himself.
What I was thinking about earlier, in my last post, was the LXX version I was reading a few days ago, which is odd, not the regular MT version you usually see in standard Bibles.

"If you Offer correctly but do not divide correctly, have you not sinned? Be still; his recourse is to you, and you will rule over him."

I think what The Lord is telling Cain is that regardless of this better reception of Abel's offering, it gains him no real practical advantage, to where Cain needs to be worried about it.

reply to post by Akragon

Originally posted by Akragon
Bravo!!

I applaud you sir...

Thank you Akragon…


...I’m an Angel in disguise…


...Still working on my other wing though lol


- JC

reply to post by jmdewey60

Originally posted by jmdewey60
Maybe the stories are set in contrast to each other.
The Lord said to Cain, after his sacrifice did no please Him, "Is it not true that if you do what is right, you will be fine?"
Then gives Cain an order to get a grip on himself.
What I was thinking about earlier, in my last post, was the LXX version I was reading a few days ago, which is odd, not the regular MT version you usually see in standard Bibles.

"If you Offer correctly but do not divide correctly, have you not sinned? Be still; his recourse is to you, and you will rule over him."

I think what The Lord is telling Cain is that regardless of this better reception of Abel's offering, it gains him no real practical advantage, to where Cain needs to be worried about it.

I’m not really sure about the key differences regarding the translations between the LXX and the standard MT version and what impact it might have on understanding that verse.

I don’t have much time to analyze the different versions right now, but I will give you my take on the whole Cain and Abel story, in relation to offerings etc…



I don’t think it’s so much to do with offerings themselves, but more to do with the condition of the heart and the intent of the person giving the offering.


So I kind of assume that God was pleased with Abel more because his heart was in the right place, Where as, Cain, on the other hand had a hard heart, and God could see this, even though his offerings might have been more lavish than Abel’s. So I don’t think God was really into the offerings at all, but was pleased more with condition of the heart, of the person giving the offering.


- JC

reply to post by Joecroft

I’m not really sure about the key differences regarding the translations between the LXX and the standard MT version and what impact it might have on understanding that verse.

I just showed where they are different.
The two quotes are the same line.
The first one is the MT.
The second is the LXX.

reply to post by jmdewey60

Originally posted by jmdewey60
I just showed where they are different.
The two quotes are the same line.
The first one is the MT.
The second is the LXX.

Yes thank you, I’m aware they are different versions, I just wasn’t sure, when I made my last post, what difference it made in understanding the verses as a whole. But having had a bit more time to read both versions, I don’t really see much difference between themi, n terms of what they are both portraying.


- JC

reply to post by Joecroft


The LXX is more specific, where the MT says "you will be alright", the LXX says alright regarding what Cain will be alright about. Apparently the birthright. Even though God showed favor on this occasion, that posed no threat to Cain's status, and so removes any possible excuse for his murdering his brother. Was Abel making moves to usurp Cains position? No because The Lord told him, no.