Paul The First Heretic

reply to post by sacgamer25

But we are predestined and we do have free will. For God the beginning and end were at the same time. The question is what we were predestined for? The Christians say that only Christians were predestined for Christ. The Jews were waiting for the one who would bring peace to all men.

Yes, the whole issue clears up when you consider the understanding of modern Physics and the nature of time. John Calvin didn't, thank Einstein for that. Time is a physical property, meaning it varies with velocity, mass and gravity. God isn't bound by any of those, therefore exists outside of the space-time dimension. (4th)

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Yes, that is John, and Jesus confirmed him as a prophet, the point was missed though. What did he say, who has eternal life? Who has the wrath of God upon them, even if they don't know it?

The point was not missed. I addressed it earlier, at the end of my last post.
You must have missed it.

I said :

Basically, those who believe what Jesus teaches has everlasting life, and those who disbelieve Jesus end up facing the wrath of God.

reply to post by sacgamer25

For God the beginning and end were at the same time.

I don't think that this is the right way to think of predestination, that God somehow exists outside of time and sees all history at a single glance. That would be the Fates who are not actual persons but are personified as such but is the concept that in the beginning it was known, but not in a way to where it can be passed on to us, how it all would end. Whatever the thought was that created the universe included everything it contained, including everything that would be. In practical terms, that knowledge is useless to anyone in the universe including any god entities, but that knowledge would have shaped creation itself to include things like the gods to ensure that the universe would have been worth expending itself on making, leaving only the universe, while what caused it no longer exists as an entity other than pretend entities being the Fates, which only mean that there was a knowledge before everything which shapes every single occurrence.

The question is what we were predestined for?

Not just to be "saved" but to be what saves the universe from being an evil place.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

God isn't bound by any of those, therefore exists outside of the space-time dimension. (4th)

Obviously this is not the case.
God would have power over those things but it would not be as if they did not exist to Him because it is plain enough to see that things pretty much continue on a course as was set into motion since the world existed, and God only does things on a specific scale of intervention.

reply to post by jmdewey60

I don't think that this is the right way to think of predestination, that God somehow exists outside of time and sees all history at a single glance.

That's actually exactly true. God isn't bound by space time, He exists outside of it, which should be graspable considering He created space time to begin with. The only place in existence where time appears as a sequence of events is for those of us bound in the 4th dimension. God is outside, He sees the end the middle and the beginning simultaneously.

reply to post by jmdewey60

That would be the Fates who are not actual persons but are personified as such but is the concept that in the beginning it was known, but not in a way to where it can be passed on to us, how it all would end. Whatever the thought was that created the universe included everything it contained, including everything that would be.

Perhaps Einstein can explain it better:

"People like us, who believe in physics, know that the distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion."

Albert Einstein

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

God isn't bound by any of those, therefore exists outside of the space-time dimension. (4th)

Obviously this is not the case.
God would have power over those things but it would not be as if they did not exist to Him because it is plain enough to see that things pretty much continue on a course as was set into motion since the world existed, and God only does things on a specific scale of intervention.

Yes, time does exist, not saying it doesn't. It's very real to those of us living within the 4 dimensions. But I didn't say that, I said God isn't "bound" by time. He certainly isn't bound to mass, acceleration, or gravity, therefore He is not bound by spacetime, He exists outside of it altogether. He created spacetime.

Speacetime.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

But I didn't say that, I said God isn't "bound" by time. He certainly isn't bound to mass, acceleration, or gravity, therefore He is not bound by spacetime, He exists outside of it altogether. He created spacetime.

Is this something you heard on a Chuck Missler video because it does not fit the Bible's description of the actions of God. It talks about God being upheld. How about the throne of God? How about the angels that are His Eyes and how about Jacob's ladder? God exists through the Ages and is not outside of it. You are just picking up theories and adapting then to your religion and have no Biblical bases whatsoever and just makes you feel good thinking about.

reply to post by jmdewey60

Is this something you heard on a Chuck Missler video because it does not fit the Bible's description of the actions of God.

No, it's called "Physics", they teach it sometimes in this place called "college" if you give them some money. E=mc^2. That's Einstein, not Chuck Missler. I even included a link titled "spacetime" from Wiki so you could read up real quick what I'm telling you.


EDIT: Oh and btw, Einstein's Theory of Relativity has been proven 19 different ways to 14 decimal points. It's considered fact. lol

reply to post by NOTurTypical


I guess you believe in evolution too, then since that is science.
Plus there are lots of scientists who think Einstein was wrong.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

I guess you believe in evolution too, then since that is science.

Red herring, were not talking about eloution. I'm a 6 day creationist. Focus.

Plus there are lots of scientists who think Einstein was wrong.

WHAT? Einstein's Theory of Relativity has been confirmed 19 different ways to 14 decimal points. It's fact, anyone who questions it will fail Physics.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
WHAT? Einstein's Theory of Relativity has been confirmed 19 different ways to 14 decimal points. It's fact, anyone who questions it will fail Physics.

It is entirely relative though. Hence, how you can percieve creation to have taken 6 days in the time and space that you occupy, relative to the 15 billion or so years that I perceive it took to bring about our existence, in the time and space that I occupy.

And there lies the brilliance of Einstein's theoretical perspective.

reply to post by NOTurTypical
Here's a nice reply I found at Yahoo! Answers to the question:

By definition can god exist outside the universe?

"They have actually pushed their concept of god too far - saying that their god is outside existence is conceding it does not exist at all."
by torpex20

I have to agree with torpex that this is a philosophical impossibility. What was understood by the ancients was that what caused the universe to come into existence expended itself into that but we see the evidence of its former existence in the universe. God exists in the spiritual realm that is distinct from the physical but is still an integral part of the universe. An example would be Jesus calming the storm while he was with his disciples in a boat on the lake of Galilee. It is a coaxing of the physical aspect of the world, into doing what is right in a principled way by the judge of what is right. This works to a degree, within the limits of the physical having a flexibility of action.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Here's a nice reply I found at Yahoo! Answers

to the question:

By definition can god exist outside the universe?

"They have actually pushed their concept of god too far - saying that their god is outside existence is conceding it does not exist at all."
by torpex20

How in the world does "Yahoo! Answers" debunk Albert Einstein? You've got to be kidding me. We've known since 1916 that time is a physical property, it varies with mass, velocity and gravity. God isn't bound by things He created if He created them He existed before they did. It's quite alright to say that John Calvin was ignorant to modern Physics and Astrophysics, because after all, he was.

Despite what torpex20 says, Einstein's Theory of Relativity has been confirmed true 19 different ways to 14 decimal points. I don't think that fact has set in yet JM...

Also, just because God exists outside of spacetime doesn't mean He cannot enter and exit our time domain anytime He wants. And not only that, because He exists in all dimensions he can be more intimate with any of us than we can be with each other, we are bound by the 4 spacial dimensions and time, God isn't bound.

Did you check out the link to spacetime yet?

Originally posted by Biliverdin

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
WHAT? Einstein's Theory of Relativity has been confirmed 19 different ways to 14 decimal points. It's fact, anyone who questions it will fail Physics.

It is entirely relative though. Hence, how you can percieve creation to have taken 6 days in the time and space that you occupy, relative to the 15 billion or so years that I perceive it took to bring about our existence, in the time and space that I occupy.

And there lies the brilliance of Einstein's theoretical perspective.

Know what's even more crazy, I can't remember who did the research, but basically he showed that with the expansion factor of the universe, if divided by 15 billion years you get 6 days. Or something to that effect. It's been a while, let me see if I can find it.

reply to post by jmdewey60

I have to agree with torpex that this is a philosophical impossibility.

You're just as ignorant to Physics as torpex is then, that's all that means. Sorry.

Despite what torpex20 says, Einstein's Theory of Relativity has been confirmed true 19 different ways to 14 decimal points. I don't think that fact has set in yet JM...

Well since this thread has strayed waaaaaay off topic... i will be happy to get it back on track...

Back to paul...

19For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,

20Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.

21Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.

22And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

And what counters this arguement...

1. IESUS was teaching his disciples in the outer court of the Temple and one of them said unto him: Master, it is said by the priests that without shedding of blood there is no remission. Can then the blood offering of the law take away sin?
2. And Iesus answered: No blood offering, of beast or bird, or man, can take away sin, for how can the conscience be purged from sin by the shedding of innocent blood? Nay, it will increase the condemnation.
3. The priests indeed receive such offering as a reconciliation of the worshippers for the trespasses against the law of Moses, but for sins against the Law of God there can be no remission, save by repentance and amendment.

The Gospel of the Holy Twelve ~ a.k.a. Gospel of the Nazarenes

en.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by Akragon

Back to paul...

It's actually Hebrews, and likely not Paul, though a lot of people accepted it by assuming it was by Paul.
The writer of Hebrews was explaining that all these things as described had to have blood sprinkled on them probably because that was tradition back then as a way to seal covenants, them thinking there was magical power in blood.
For example, people in Medieval times would mix blood into the mortar while building fortifications.
Maybe they were fascinated with how it coagulates and they thought it was alive.
Hebrews goes on to say that this same principal as was in the first covenant, the covenant of the Law, is exemplified with Jesus' blood inaugurating the new covenant. The new covenant involves those things you mentioned in the Gospel of the Twelve.

reply to post by jmdewey60


What of this then.... 30 some odd years after the death of Jesus, paul still practices blood offerings...

24Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

25As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

26Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.

reply to post by Akragon

. . . 30 some odd years after the death of Jesus, paul still practices blood offerings...

I would say it is a complete fabrication.
No serious Bible scholar takes the Book of Acts at face value.
There seems to be a sort of bias involved in the writing of that pseudo-history, to be the best way to undermine Paul, which is to make a story which appears on the surface to build Paul up where you do not notice all the subtleties just under the surface that go counter to his real teachings as described in his own letters. You can see him already reacting to these attacks in Galatians where he says the meetings with the council (as described in Acts) never happened.