Paul The First Heretic

reply to post by Akragon

Scripture from Jesus words might help.

"For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

John 6:40

"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."

John 3:36

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by Biliverdin

Originally posted by Akragon
How does Jesus take away sin?

I tend to think of it like this, he died for 'our sins', our, their, sin, was to believe that he was the saviour. The messiah. Not simply a man possessed of wisdom and wanting to share. So their sin, that he died because of, was their own activity. Had they acted upon his teaching, instead of following him around like mindless sheep, it may have been a different story.

But there you go. And only my interpretation.

Thank you for your input...

I prefer to think of it as... he showed us how to act to become sinless... which technically "takes away sin"...

Just my opinion though

That is no way to atone for sin before a righteous Holy God. To look the other way at sin would compromise His righteousness.

I didn't say "look the other way" i mean learn from your sins... and don't repeat them...

As i've said before... he said: GO and SIN no more....

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Akragon

 

Okay the OT serpent story = picture of the crucifixion of Christ in the NT:



Numbers 21:4-9

From Mount Hor they set out by the way to the Red Sea, to go around the land of Edom. And the people became impatient on the way. And the people spoke against God and against Moses, “Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? For there is no food and no water, and we loathe this worthless food.” Then the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people, so that many people of Israel died. And the people came to Moses and said, “We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD and against you. Pray to the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us.” So Moses prayed for the people. And the LORD said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent and set it on a pole, and everyone who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live.” So Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on a pole. And if a serpent bit anyone, he would look at the bronze serpent and live.

Numbers 21:4-9 ESV

Jesus in the NT:

John 3:14-15

" And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life."

interesting... A live Idol instead of an inanimate one...

Originally posted by Akragon

I didn't say "look the other way" i mean learn from your sins... and don't repeat them...

As i've said before... he said: GO and SIN no more....

And redemption, of course, is key

reply to post by Akragon

I didn't say "look the other way" i mean learn from your sins... and don't repeat them...

As i've said before... he said: GO and SIN no more....

Judgment day, when you die. How will you atone for the sins you had committed, at any random time in your life?

This is what Jesus says about people that don't know Him.


""He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." John 3:36


Maybe Jesus was joking.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Akragon

 

I didn't say "look the other way" i mean learn from your sins... and don't repeat them...

As i've said before... he said: GO and SIN no more....

Judgment day, when you die. How will you atone for the sins you had committed, at any random time in your life?

I will find out when that day comes...

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
This is what Jesus says about people that don't know Him.


""He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." John 3:36


Maybe Jesus was joking.

He knows everyone that knows love... even if they do not Know of Jesus...

reply to post by NOTurTypical

This is what Jesus says about people that don't know Him.

""He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." John 3:36

Maybe Jesus was joking.

I think those were the words of John

25Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying.

26And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.

27John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.

28Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.

29He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

30He must increase, but I must decrease.

31He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.

32And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.

33He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.

34For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

35The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

36He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

-John 3:25-36


Basically, those who believe what Jesus teaches has everlasting life, and those who disbelieve Jesus end up facing the wrath of God.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Basically, those who believe what Jesus teaches has everlasting life, and those who disbelieve Jesus end up facing the wrath of God.

The Gospel of John is about the fear of the wrath of the Jews.
The book was written at the time when those who belived in Jesus were being barred from the synagogues. So you have these stories that described people in fear of the Jews where some would not want to believe in Jesus because of the possible consequences, and others believed but kept their belief secret.
The point that John the Baptist is driving home in his discourse with his disciples is that there is a greater fear which people should have than of the Jews, which is the fear of the wrath of the one who sent Jesus. So this is an indictment of the religious system of the time, and illustrated with anecdotes from the life of Jesus.
For some people who claim to hate religion, they are really locked into the dogmatism of religion (which at its core is really Medieval Catholicism).

reply to post by jmdewey60

The Gospel of John is about the fear of the wrath of the Jews.

What? Which verse? The Gospel according to John is about showing that Jesus is the Son of God. It's not the "good news" of John, it's the Gospel according to him. Maybe you're thinking of the "Gospel of Thomas" or "Gospel of Judas"?

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

The Gospel of John is about the fear of the wrath of the Jews.

What? Which verse? The Gospel according to John is about showing that Jesus is the Son of God. It's not the "good news" of John, it's the Gospel according to him. Maybe you're thinking of the "Gospel of Thomas" or "Gospel of Judas"?

You have to be kidding!
You are objecting to the name, "The Gospel of John"?
That is really weird.
I have a book sitting in front of me at this moment that is titled, The Gospel of Mark.
That is a very ordinary nomenclature and you are on a tangent.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Yes I am, there is no "Gospel of John". It's the Gospel of Jesus Christ according to John, and according to Mark.

Its being precise, and always giving the glory to Jesus where it belongs. There is no "gospel of Mark" there is no gospel of John likewise despite whatever label modern people give books. The gospel is Jesus Christ's. It's "The Gospel according to Mark, and the Gospel according to John. The good news/gospel is only the good news of Jesus Christ.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


The devil is playing games in your mind from watching too many Chuck Missler YouTube videos. Satan has you spinning your wheels on nonsensical stuff to keep you from dealing with the real issues you have like why you believe in predestination.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

The devil is playing games in your mind from watching too many Chuck Missler YouTube videos. Satan has you spinning your wheels on nonsensical stuff to keep you from dealing with the real issues you have like why you believe in predestination.

For one, why are you changing the subject? For two, I reject predestination if you mean the Calvinist version of things. Going back to the subject, there is no " good news" about John or Mark. The " good news" is about Christ. John and Mark merely share that good news. So it' s the gospel according to John and the gospel according to Mark.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

For one, why are you changing the subject? For two, I reject predestination if you mean the Calvinist version of things.

Changing the subject? Because it is not a controversy that I know of and as far as I know, it could be only in your own mind. Do you have any relevant literature you can bring to bear on the subject?

You actually are supporting predestination but just don't realize it.

Darby defended Calvinist doctrines when they came under attack from within the Church in which he once served. His biographer Goddard states, "Darby indicates his approval of the doctrine of the Anglican Church as expressed in Article XVII of the Thirty-Nine Articles" on the subject of election and predestination. Darby said:
"For my own part, I soberly think Article XVII to be as wise, perhaps I might say the wisest and best condensed human statement of the view it contains that I am acquainted with. I am fully content to take it in its literal and grammatical sense. I believe that predestination to life is the eternal purpose of God, by which, before the foundations of the world were laid, He firmly decreed, by His counsel secret to us, to deliver from curse and destruction those whom He had chosen in Christ out of the human race, and to bring them, through Christ, as vessels made to honour, to eternal salvation."

en.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by jmdewey60

You actually are supporting predestination but just don't realize it.

I know exactly what I believe. I believe John Calvin had no clue about Astrophysics and the nature of time. It wan't until Einstein's relativity theory that we found out we live in 4 physical dimensions, not 3. Space and time is the 4th dimension. God is outside time, He sees the end from the beginning. Trust me, I know the T.U.L.I.P. doctrine, I argue against it with my mother.

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Akragon

 

I didn't say "look the other way" i mean learn from your sins... and don't repeat them...

As i've said before... he said: GO and SIN no more....

Judgment day, when you die. How will you atone for the sins you had committed, at any random time in your life?

I will find out when that day comes...

Dude, trust Jesus, He also said "It's Finished!" Or in the Greek, "Tetelestai" meaning "paid in full". Roman soldiers releasing prisoners would write that on their certificate of debt to the State. And the released prisoner kept his certificate.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Yes, that is John, and Jesus confirmed him as a prophet, the point was missed though. What did he say, who has eternal life? Who has the wrath of God upon them, even if they don't know it?

reply to post by jmdewey60


But we are predestined and we do have free will. For God the beginning and end were at the same time. The question is what we were predestined for? The Christians say that only Christians were predestined for Christ. The Jews were waiting for the one who would bring peace to all men.

Let me give you a bible verse to think about.

John 20:31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

If the Jews are right that the Christ is the savior of all men, then what does that say about predestination? If the Christians are right than we must believe that only by some after death miracle can anyone who is not Christian go to heaven?

I say they are both right. Grace is for all, but only a few will find it.

If I am right than neither the Jews nor the Christians believe in the Christ (that Jesus is the savior of all men)

1 Timothy 4:10 This is why we work hard and continue to struggle, for our hope is in the living God, who is the Savior of all people and particularly of all believers.

1 John2:2 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Jews don’t believe Jesus is him and Christians don’t believe he is the Christ. They have believed he is the son of God but they have failed to believe he is the savior of all people. Thus they reject and judge others. All men are your brothers and Jesus is the Christ (the messiah, the savior of all men)

The question is are you willing to turn from sin so that you might be saved?