Illuminati: ArmageddonConspiracy vs. Fritz Springmeier

reply to post by OnTheLevel213

People who detonate bombs to distract people from the bank they're robbing are all three.

There is no evidence that he did this as per Judge Ann Brown's statement. It was proven to be a propane tank. Not a bomb. Why are you disregarding fact and stating the opposite? I think you're the one who is confused and decides to believe what is real even when the evidence suggests otherwise.

Do you believe that people should be found guilty of crimes when there is no evidence proving their guilt?

If you don't have anything proving that mind control is not possible, we're done here. You continue to misconstrue facts to back up your argument and cannot move past this and show me proof to dispel that mind controlled slaves are absolutely fictitious.

Originally posted by Afterthought
There is no evidence that he did this as per Judge Ann Brown's statement.

Once again, I'd love to see the relevant documentation.

It was proven to be a propane tank. Not a bomb. Why are you disregarding fact and stating the opposite? I think you're the one who is confused and decides to believe what is real even when the evidence suggests otherwise.

A bomb is any of a range (short or long distance) of explosive weapons that only rely on the exothermic reaction of an explosive material to provide an extremely sudden and violent release of energy.

Do you believe that people should be found guilty of crimes when there is no evidence proving their guilt?

"No evidence" is based on an apocryphal account of a quote from a judge who did not dismiss the case.

If you don't have anything proving that mind control is not possible, we're done here.

If a request to prove a negative is within the bounds of reasoned debate to you, perhaps we should be.

You continue to misconstrue facts to back up your argument

You mean "Fritz Springmeier is a convicted criminal whose only defense seems to be apocryphal accounts reported secondhand" or "Fritz Springmeier asks us to believe convoluted theories but can't get easily proven facts straight"? Which of those misconstrues anything?

and cannot move past this and show me proof to dispel that mind controlled slaves are absolutely fictitious.

Once again, it is not incumbent upon me to prove that anything is fictitious. Fritz Springmeier must prove it is factual; so far, he's been disproven at almost every juncture wherein verifiable fact can be cited.

reply to post by OnTheLevel213


If you'd like to challenge Judge Brown's statement and bring it to her attention that people may be misquoting her and/or using her statement out of context, feel free to ask her yourself.
Here is her contact information:
www.ord.uscourts.gov...

According to how a bomb is defined, cars, gas grills, space shuttles, and anything else that has explosive materials under pressure is a potential item that can be used as a bomb. Maybe you should call and let Homeland Security know about this.

Please let us know if Judge Brown answers you.

Originally posted by Afterthought
If you'd like to challenge Judge Brown's statement and bring it to her attention that people may be misquoting her and/or using her statement out of context, feel free to ask her yourself.

You're under the strange impression that I'm compelled to present evidence as regards your claim.

The fact that she did not dismiss a case with "no evidence", or that Springmeier's lawyers did not even attempt a motion for summary judgment despite the judge clearly believing the same, would lead any reasonable person to conclude that it was never actually said. It you think otherwise, then you need to prove it.

According to how a bomb is defined, cars, gas grills, space shuttles, and anything else that has explosive materials under pressure is a potential item that can be used as a bomb. Maybe you should call and let Homeland Security know about this.

They've already defined Improvised Explosive Devices as such.

Please let us know if Judge Brown answers you.

I'm toying with the idea of e-mailing her to put the whole thing to bed anyway, but really, you should contact her. After all, you're the one for whom it would matter.

Originally posted by Afterthought
I like the way you mentioned much of what my post said, except this:

Ann J Brown, the first Federal Judge to hear the case, had said, “There is no evidence against this man.”

How nice of you to avoid what this Federal Judge stated. Why did you not find this significant enough to comment on?

Considering there is no Federal Judge Ann Brown (her name is Anna Brown), that statement is demonstrably false. Easy to spot the Makow followers, they repeat his typos verbatim!

reply to post by OnTheLevel213


I supplied the quote and sources where it is listed. I searched for the trial transcript, but was unable to locate it. You're the one who is so concerned that she didn't say this.
The burden of proof falls on you, sir.
I'm not questioning her words or the sources that supplied the quote, you are.

Originally posted by JoshNorton

Originally posted by Afterthought
I like the way you mentioned much of what my post said, except this:

Ann J Brown, the first Federal Judge to hear the case, had said, “There is no evidence against this man.”

How nice of you to avoid what this Federal Judge stated. Why did you not find this significant enough to comment on?

Considering there is no Federal Judge Ann Brown (her name is Anna Brown), that statement is demonstrably false. Easy to spot the Makow followers, they repeat his typos verbatim!

edit on 2011.7.1 by JoshNorton because: (no reason given)

You're right! They didn't place a period after her middle initial either. What devils that are!
Unless you can provide more evidence that "Makow followers" repeat this typo "verbatim!", you're making assumptions.
Please provide further proof. Thank you.

Originally posted by Afterthought

Originally posted by JoshNorton

Originally posted by Afterthought
I like the way you mentioned much of what my post said, except this:

Ann J Brown, the first Federal Judge to hear the case, had said, “There is no evidence against this man.”

How nice of you to avoid what this Federal Judge stated. Why did you not find this significant enough to comment on?

Considering there is no Federal Judge Ann Brown (her name is Anna Brown), that statement is demonstrably false. Easy to spot the Makow followers, they repeat his typos verbatim!

edit on 2011.7.1 by JoshNorton because: (no reason given)

You're right! They didn't place a period after her middle initial either. What devils that are!
Unless you can provide more evidence that "Makow followers" repeat this typo "verbatim!", you're making assumptions.
Please provide further proof. Thank you.

Type Judge Ann Brown Fritz Springmeier into any search engine and voila, evidence of Makow followers repeating verbatim, yet no record of a legal opinon from Judge Anna Brown as claimed.

Well, this is getting quite interesting.

Evidently, there's a Judge Anne Brown as well as a Judge Anna Brown.

Here's an article mentioning Portland's Judge Anne Brown:
www.cannonbeachgazette.com...

Donald Seybold entered his plea in federal court in Portland June 25 before Judge Anne Brown. Seybold faces a maximum sentence of 20 years in prison and a fine of $250,000.

I see how all the Springmeier defenders are listing the Judge as Ann, but this is getting confusing.

NOTE: Seybold has nothing to do with this discussion. I just wanted to paste the quote with the Judge's name for simplicity's sake.

Originally posted by Afterthought
I supplied the quote and sources where it is listed.

All of which do no more than state your opinion, and similarly fail to cite any relevant document.

I searched for the trial transcript, but was unable to locate it. You're the one who is so concerned that she didn't say this.

Because you made it a major point of your argument, highlighting it after (mistakenly) asserting that I had overlooked it.

I'm not questioning her words or the sources that supplied the quote, you are.

Exactly. You have brought the claim to bear, therefore it falls on you to evidentiate it.

Forget the semantics of the trial and who the heck Judge Ann/Anna/Anne Brown is! Let's get to the nitty-gritty of Springmeier's information.

I believe that systematic abuse in childhood, and maybe prior to, is capable of fracturing a person's host/core personality.

There have been well researched cases of this happening. Although it's difficult to prove, these people who claim to be suffering from MPD or DID can even write in different handwriting when under the influence of each personality.

Do the people who believe Springmeier's information is filled with lies, are you disputing that personalities aren't able to be fractured? Do you not believe in DID/MPD? Are you just skeptical that a shadow government has scientists who conduct such practices? Do you not believe that it's a perfect way to train an assassin who can then honestly say that they don't remember anything even when given a polygraph?

Originally posted by Afterthought
Forget the semantics of the trial and who the heck Judge Ann/Anna/Anne Brown is! Let's get to the nitty-gritty of Springmeier's information.

No. Let's not. So far, after a few hours of searching, I have yet to find any evidence that Federal Judge Anna J. Brown ever even had Springmeier's case in front of her. It was Federal Judge James A. Redden who heard the Springmeier vs USA case, which was, from my understanding, a case brought up by Springmeier in an attempt to get his conviction overturned.

I'm no a lawyer, so I don't have access to legal databases, so this is about as much as I've been able to find via Google so far.

I believe that systematic abuse in childhood, and maybe prior to, is capable of fracturing a person's host/core personality.

In your opinion, is this why Fritz Springmeier blew up a propane tank to aid in a bank robbery?

reply to post by JoshNorton


I'm not an internet investigator.
I already stated that I tried to search for the trial transcript and other information regarding Judge Ann Brown's statement. Frankly, the fact that there is Judge Anne Brown and Judge Anna Brown presiding over courts in Oregon would make this investigation into Judge Ann Brown's statement a complete derailment of this thread.
I already supplied Judge Anna Brown's information so the quote could be verified.
Until someone contacts her and supplies her answer, we need to get back to Springmeier's information and trying to prove why it is lies or truth.

We need to move on and discuss manchurian candidates, MPD/DID, systematic child abuse, triggers, and anything else that may or may not be false information as people are claiming.

Originally posted by Afterthought
We need to move on and discuss manchurian candidates, MPD/DID, systematic child abuse, triggers, and anything else that may or may not be false information as people are claiming.

Ok then, let's find more false information in Fritz Springmeier's work.

From his chapter on the Kennedy's:

One of my first clues that the Kennedys had something to do with the Illuminati was the conspiracy book The Widow’s Son-- The Historical Illuminatus Chronicles (Vol. 2) by Robert Anton Wilson. Robert Anton Wilson and Robert Shea, authors of "Illuminatus!" are not Christians. On the contrary, they are regular participants in the central Ohio Starwood Festival for witches and pagans. Robert Anton Wilson has publicly on a number of occasions explained that he is a gnostic and a great fan of Aleister Crowley. I picked up Wilson’s book The Widow’s Son in a Satanic/New Age bookstore. In both volume 2 (the teaser chapter at the end) and in volume 3 of The Historical Illuminatus Chronicles one is taught the significance of Brian Caeneddi, the first Kennedy, and how Brian Caeneddi’s blood got into some very important royal bloodlines. It is interesting that an informed man like Wilson, who spends time doing rituals with Gnostics and Witches, would declare that the Kennedy family is an important bloodline in connection with the Illuminati. How many people knew that Tip O’Neil, speaker of the house of representatives, was a descendent of the Kennedy clan? Wilson writes for New Agers and witches, not for Christians.

Now, both The Widow's Son and Wilson & Shea's Illuminatus! trilogy are works of fiction. That Springmeier would admit that he's basing his claims on a novel is a big warning flag to me.

reply to post by JoshNorton


Thanks for posing this info, but while I'm researching, do you know if Robert Anton Wilson's middle name is in honor of Anton LaVey? I'm just curious and thought I'd ask you.
I'll be back to comment when I research the books you mentioned.

Originally posted by Afterthought
reply to post by JoshNorton

 

Thanks for posing this info, but while I'm researching, do you know if Robert Anton Wilson's middle name is in honor of Anton LaVey? I'm just curious and thought I'd ask you.
I'll be back to comment when I research the books you mentioned.

Robert Anton Wilson was born in 1932. Anton LaVey was born only 2 years earlier. I doubt he was famous enough at that age to warrant anybody honoring him by being a namesake.

Springmeier writes

The Fitzgeralds were a mighty Italian clan that had helped William the Conqueror become ruler of England.

I'm finding no evidence of Fitzgeralds in Italy. Fitzgerald is an Irish clan, and the prefix Fitz is based on Norman/French as a "son of", so Fitzgerald would be like "son of Gerald". I'm not immediately finding evidence that any Fitzgeralds aided William the Conqueror (though, apparently some Normans in Italy might have.) Ultimately confusing.

I guess one of my issues is, Springmeier himself admits he doesn't know anything, yet everyone seems to take his texts as gospel.
I mean,

So the question always arises as I examine the elite of the Illuminati and the New World Order--how is this Kennedy related to this other Kennedy. For instance, how is David M. Kennedy (who is a Bilderberger) and William Jesse Kennedy III (who is a key man for the Duke Illuminati family--he is pres. of Mutual life Insur. Co, a Duke financial asset, dir. of RCA, trustee of the Ford Theater where the elite killed Lincoln, and associated with the Pilgrim Soc. through the Conference Board of NYC)?? Although I can’t explain the exact ties, I can safely say that if one goes back several hundred years the Kennedy aristocrats all tie together.

is pretty much a non-statement. If you go back far enough, all people with the last name Kennedy are related to each other. Yes. I don't think that's really a matter of dispute. But if he's trying to argue a specific bloodline, he's going to have to do better than that.

What is the Prieure de Sion? Are we sure it exists? How does this relate to the hierarchy? The Prieure de Sion (Priory of Zion) was unknown to the general public until 1982 when a book co-authored by Michael Baigent, Richard Leigh, and Henry Lincoln came out. The book was entitled Holy Blood, Holy Grail and it offered historical proof that an organization called the Prieure de Sion was powerful and had existed since the time of the early crusades (1099 A.D.).

The Priory of Sion written about in Holy Blood, Holy Grail was a hoax created by Pierre Plantard in 1956. It didn't exist. Yet its the basis for most of Springmeier's chapter on the Freeman family.

reply to post by JoshNorton


Thanks for answering my obscure question about his middle name.

I couldn't find much info on the books, but I did find this on Amazon:
www.amazon.com...=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_1?pf_rd_p=486539851&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=1591296765&pf_rd_m=AT VPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=026GBWDG5JA1YG2XMW51#_

I wish I could copy and paste parts of the back cover, but alas I can't. The fact that the book is fiction based on fact makes things a bit murky. The Illuminatus Chronicles on stated as being "Historical", which adds to the idea that they're more fact than fiction.

Researching Robert Anton Wilson, I found this to be particularly interesting:
"Hagbard Celine, alter ego of Robert Anton Wilson"
From this site: www.blackcrayon.com...

The fact that he has an "alter ego" is exactly the kind of stuff that Springmeier speaks about. Alter egos and multiple personalities go hand in hand.

Hagbard Celine states:
But a man with a gun (the power to punish) is told only what his target thinks will not cause him to pull the trigger.

This comment makes it sound as though Wilson's alter ego Celine is a programmed assassin. Handlers will train the alters what to be aware of regarding their selected targets to ensure that their mission is a success.

The fact that he writes about cybernetics screams that he is involved with scientology, which is considered to be a cult where programming is conducted.

Reading through his quotes (most were interesting), I found this one to be of special importance:
"The abandoned infant's cry is rage, not fear."
- Robert Anton Wilson

Considering that abandonment is one of the first types of systematic child abuse used to fracture the personality, it makes me shudder to think how he would be so sure why the infant if crying.

And then there's this quote:
"There are gods, but there is no God; and all gods become devils eventually."
- Robert Anton Wilson

His views and the fact that he has an alter ego are strangely pointing in the direction that he may have been a mind control victim himself. More research is certainly in order, but Springmeier's information would assist in deciphering his obviously complicated character.