Illuminati: ArmageddonConspiracy vs. Fritz Springmeier

Originally posted by Buford2
reply to post by Jedimind

 

I believe Springmier. Why would he be silenced like William Cooper if he wasnt telling the truth.

The William Cooper scenario is quite mysterious; either he was assassinated or the police who shot him were telling the truth, that he opened fire on them (shooting one of them in the head); he did have a history of waving guns around anof threatening to defend humself with arms if he faced arrest. He seesm to have had a martyr complex; which is not always a bad thing of course.

After decades of US state terrorist overt and covert wars and military coups against Marxist and socialist regimes, Cooper came to the conclusion that the ultimate agenda of the US government was a Marxist state; the stupidity of some people and the lengths they are willing to go to, to concoct ludicrous conspiracy theories is stranger than fiction.

I did read "Behold a Pale Horse" some time ago and since it contained the transcript of the 19th century hoax, the Protocols of Elders of Zion, I must assume that not only the US government is controlled by persons with a Marxist agenda but that a select group of Jewish Freemasons are planning to take over the world also. Holding two opposing contradictory positions at the same time is not exclusive to the Christians.

Part of the problem is that many "conspiracy theories" are actually a perfectly reasonable explanation of facts such as that the US military are the world's leading drugs dealers, and that 9/11 was engineered to create billions of dollars of profits on the derivatives market and to create support for the invasion of Afghanistan, but if such details of covert US state terrorist operations are mixed in with the most incredible and bizzare theories, including UFO theories, it assists in giving a lack of credibility to those facts which are true and to those theories which "are" a reasonable explanation of facts.

Personally I consider Alex Jones' analysis of world affairs to be much more responsible and credible, through I am certainly not uncritical of him as he is certainly a right wing anti-Communist Christian.

Fritz Springmeier was charged with bank robbery and setting off a bomb in an adult book store; the conditions of his parole were that he should not engage in any political activity, since he had been involved in right wing militias.

Same with John Todd who was locked away by Strom Thurmond in SC before being killed.

John Todd was a notorious fantasist and compulsive liar; I won't go into the details as his wiki page should be sufficient ( en.wikipedia.org...(occultist) ).

I do believe there are illuminati type groups who are for Peace and well being

Capitalism is a militant and genocidal ideology, it is highly improbable that they will just surrender to their ideological enemies and begin the process of creating Socialism and collectivisation; thus their opponents who are the ideological and philosophical inheritors of the Illuminati (i.e., the Anarchists and Communists) must take a similarly ideologically militant position. "Peace" is better conceived after the defeat of one's militant enemies.

Lucifer

reply to post by Jedimind


All I'm saying in the end is that there's no reason to assume the existence of something, and even go much further and concretely affirm it, when the only sources putting this out there are based on myths, wild speculation, prejudice, subjective bias, half-truths, and lies.
And in the case of both websites mentioned in the OP, this is the case.

But don't get me wrong, I don't outright deny that groups that may seem fantastical actually exist or have existed, and have wielded immense power and influence. Just after looking into the whole Illuminati thing for sometime I am entirely unconvinced of the data, such as it is.

But, hey, it's sure fun reading about it all. Conspiratainment, it is.

A little off topic but I was wondering why i can find no copies anywhere on the entire internet of the Toronoto Protocol by Serge Monast? Has anyone ever heard of this? I recently downloaded it, it is an android app, and wanted to print a copy but can find it nowhere.

Originally posted by inforeal
Secret societies exist for many reasons and one is that since the world is filled with people at varying degrees of psychological and spiritual development, it is wise to filter knowledge in light of what Jesus meant by this aphorism” “ Cast not pearls at the feet of swine”

Indeed, that is why organized and basic religion exists for. In spite of some people’s strange theories, religion is for the general populace, and therefore the secrets of religion are reserved for those who seek the esoteric on their own and weed out the chaff of religious doctrine to reach what the mystics call . . . real wine.

Many who are exposed to higher thought prematurely [don’t cast pearls at the feet of swine] will and have distorted it because their developmental level actually is internally at a low level despite they may have intellectual capacity at a higher level.

That is the issue with these guys like this Illuminati group.
They want to expose people to being “god” when half the human race are still developmentally at a very primitive level.

This is dangerous and is the cause of ALL perverse doctrinal distortions that we find in for example, primitive Christianity, and their idea of a literal son of god . . . . An esoteric notion that has been bent out of all proportion where today people believe it literally.

On the other hand these neo-satanic so-called mystical groups like this guy are just as bad with their religious hatred and bigotry all pretending to be mystics with secret knowledge while having inner virulent hatred which in itself alone immediately excludes them from the grace of love. They lack understanding, though they have exposure to esoteric information, therefore they espouse their hatred and distorted views of religion, though justified somewhat in the sense that indeed the religionist have gone way awry— by excluding love, tolerance and understanding from their doctrines— nevertheless these satanic mystics themselves seem filled with a similar hatred and lack of understanding. They dont teach unity they teach seperation.

This is 100% SPOT ON and articulately stated!

reply to post by Jedimind


I really can't believe the extent to which Amado Crowley cult members are posting their rubbish everywhere. The Armageddon Conspiracy, The Movement, all the Mike Hockney books are Amado Crowley (his name was Mike when he lectured in psychology at Southampton poly) he died and now they don't have the 'Soul Camera' novel. He did the same thing in the 1990s before he was shown to be a fraud and nothing to do with Aleister Crowley. Amado Crowley falsely claimed to be the son of Aleister Crowley and then started a cult on the back of it. He gets followers by telling them all the sort of rubbish in those Mike Hockney books and so called secret rituals. Mostly it's group sex apparently, they talk about that on their site also. Apparently Amado liked to *initiate* young attractive new members personally.

I have read three of Fritz Springmeier's books. What he writes is the truth. You just can't make that stuff up.
I believe that 'Illuminati' is the technical term for 'Club of Sickos'.
Like George Carlin said, "There's a special club and you and I ain't in it."

Fritz's sentence for "planning" a bank robbery (which I don't believe) was for 111 years, which makes sense because one of his books (I forget which right now) was about how they use numbers, tones, and codes to program their victims. He was very specific about 111, so his sentence was basicly a slap to his face that they were doing this to get rid of him and he couldn't do anything about it.

Originally posted by Afterthought
I have read three of Fritz Springmeier's books. What he writes is the truth. You just can't make that stuff up.

Actually, you really can make that stuff up. In fact, Springmeier did!

Fritz's sentence for "planning" a bank robbery (which I don't believe) was for 111 years

No, actually, it was 111 months.

reply to post by Buford2

Those who sit over the nations, all the resources and technologies, the international conglomerates etc, are evil beyond description. The author of this post is naive to say the least.

reply to post by JoshNorton


Mr. Norton, we tend to disagree on many topics, but you are out of line in saying that he did make this up without offering any evidence to back yourself up. I apologize for saying years when I meant months (it was late & I was tired), but the issue at hand with the 111 and my mistake doesn't change this.

Here's an interesting article:
wemustknow.net...

From the article by Henry Makow Ph.D.:

In 2003, Illuminati researcher Fritz Springmeier was sentenced to 111 months in prison on the basis of no evidence. His experience suggests that at any time the Illuminati can put away anyone who irritates them.

Springmeier was convicted because a bank robber, Forrest E. Bateman Jr. testified that Springmeier visited his house on the same day as Bateman discussed the robbery with two accomplices.

Bateman received a reduced sentence for this testimony. He did not say he had discussed the robbery with Springmeier.

Bateman was turned in by his friend and accomplice Tony Huntington. Huntington also implicated Springmeier and received no sentence for the bank robbery. Over 120 years of prison time for drugs and guns were also forgiven. Pretty good incentive to lie?

Indeed, Springmeier’s case is in the law books as an example of the low standard of evidence needed to convict someone. Ann J Brown, the first Federal Judge to hear the case, had said, “There is no evidence against this man.”

Ten minutes prior to the robbery, a “bomb” exploded at the Fantasy Adult Video Store, located six miles west of the bank. No one was injured in the explosion but police investigators believe that the bomb was set off as a diversionary tactic.

Terrorists are everywhere, aren't they? We need to get them all. I'm surprised that they didn't use the Patriot Act to have him held indefinitely..

The “bomb” was a propane tank. Springmeier was nowhere near either event and had no prior knowledge of either. At the time he was working at a print shop in Eagle Creek, 10 miles SE. However the proprietor refused to provide an alibi because Fritz had offended him by criticizing Billy Graham.

These days, if you’re an Illuminati researcher in the US, you are guilty until proven innocent.

This does seem to be the case. Especially since many researchers who speak about the Illuminati also speak out against the Masons. Coincidence? I think not.

Have you ever read any of his books? The tactics for mind control are more than possible of fracturing one's personality. We see evidence of Beta Programming (Kitten Programming) in today's society with magazine ads and other such articles such as Vogue. This is no coincidence.

The men in control are pedophiles and desire subserviate women and girls who will do whatever their sick desires call for. Do you even know how kitten programming is done? Do you even want to know? You wouldn't believe it anyways. It's so sick and disturbing that most healthy minds tell themselves that it has to be a lie.

Originally posted by Afterthought
I apologize for saying years when I meant months (it was late & I was tired), but the issue at hand with the 111 and my mistake doesn't change this.

Well, then, let's discuss that. Second degree conspiracy to commit robbery typically has a range of 5-10 years for sentencing. Springmeier got nine months less than the maximum range for the crime for which he was sentenced, but less than the minimum range for the first-degree armed robbery charge he could have received. Not knowing the case well enough, it sounds like a deal.

From the article by Henry Makow Ph.D.:

Who's never met a fact he couldn't ignore.

In 2003, Illuminati researcher Fritz Springmeier was sentenced to 111 months in prison on the basis of no evidence. His experience suggests that at any time the Illuminati can put away anyone who irritates them.

That's a big statement to make without reproducing the brief. Especially when quoted by someone who says someone else is out of line for not having evidence.

Springmeier was convicted because a bank robber, Forrest E. Bateman Jr. testified that Springmeier visited his house on the same day as Bateman discussed the robbery with two accomplices.

Bateman received a reduced sentence for this testimony. He did not say he had discussed the robbery with Springmeier.

Bateman was turned in by his friend and accomplice Tony Huntington. Huntington also implicated Springmeier and received no sentence for the bank robbery. Over 120 years of prison time for drugs and guns were also forgiven. Pretty good incentive to lie?

Perhaps. That doesn't mean either man lied, though.

Indeed, Springmeier’s case is in the law books as an example of the low standard of evidence needed to convict someone. Ann J Brown, the first Federal Judge to hear the case, had said, “There is no evidence against this man.”

Once again, Makow does not reproduce any of his sources, which would be easily available if true.

This does seem to be the case. Especially since many researchers who speak about the Illuminati also speak out against the Masons. Coincidence? I think not.

No, it isn't. It's based on the flawed and agenda-driven Proofs of a Conspiracy by John Robison. Springmeier cites it, along with nearly every other "researcher" on the planet. The fact that it has never held up to rigorous investigation is secondary to the fact that it agrees with them.

While we're pointing out coincidences, though, it seems like a huge number of "researchers" end up in jail for violent offenses.

Have you ever read any of his books? The tactics for mind control are more than possible of fracturing one's personality. We see evidence of Beta Programming (Kitten Programming) in today's society with magazine ads and other such articles such as Vogue. This is no coincidence.

It's not a coincidence. It's patternicity.

Originally posted by Afterthought
Mr. Norton, we tend to disagree on many topics, but you are out of line in saying that he did make this up without offering any evidence to back yourself up.

OK, here's a bit from his chapter on Walt Disney in Bloodlines of the Illuminati.

Ronald Reagan and Walt Disney were good friends and both cut from the same die in many ways. Both men were high ranking Freemasons,

In truth, neither were Masons. Walt was a DeMolay when he was a boy, but never joined Masonry.

…Walt always generously supported Reagan’s political campaigns, and in turn Reagan did political favors for Walt as Gov. of California. For instance, Disney’s Mineral King mountain resort needed an access route through the Sequoia Nat. Park at a time when there was lots of congressional pressure to preserve the last stands of redwoods. Gov. Reagan got his friend Disney his road through the park.

Odd how Governor Reagan could use any of his political clout to help Walt, when Walt Disney died December 15, 1966, and Reagan wasn't sworn into office until January 2, 1967, 18 days later.

reply to post by OnTheLevel213


I like the way you mentioned much of what my post said, except this:

Ann J Brown, the first Federal Judge to hear the case, had said, “There is no evidence against this man.”

How nice of you to avoid what this Federal Judge stated. Why did you not find this significant enough to comment on?

You also avoided my question regarding Beta Programming. You instead mentioned "It's patternicity". Well, yes, it is. These Illuminati programmers/handlers must know about patterns and how to use them. You cannot program a person unless there is a systematic use of patterns.

Originally posted by Afterthought
reply to post by OnTheLevel213

 

I like the way you mentioned much of what my post said, except this:

Ann J Brown, the first Federal Judge to hear the case, had said, “There is no evidence against this man.”

How nice of you to avoid what this Federal Judge stated. Why did you not find this significant enough to comment on?

Something I had already said applied well enough: if all this happened, it's in the court transcripts.

You also avoided my question regarding Beta Programming.

Such is outside any area of research I've done.

You instead mentioned "It's patternicity". Well, yes, it is. These Illuminati programmers/handlers must know about patterns and how to use them. You cannot program a person unless there is a systematic use of patterns.

You misunderstand the term "patternicity". I suggest Michael Shermer's article on the subject for Scientific American.

reply to post by JoshNorton


I'm glad you know about Walt Disney.
Why can't you answer my question about Beta Programming? Do you know how it's done? I can certainly tell you how if you don't know.
How many of Springmeier's books have you read? I think it's convenient that a person can say that an author has made things up when they haven't ever read the words they're saying are lies. You are guilty of reading and believing only what others have said against him. We all choose who we want to believe, don't we?

reply to post by OnTheLevel213


I don't believe I have misunderstood anything.

Michael Shermer states:

Why do people see faces in nature, interpret window stains as human figures, hear voices in random sounds generated by electronic devices or find conspiracies in the daily news? A proximate cause is the priming effect, in which our brain and senses are prepared to interpret stimuli according to an expected model. UFOlogists see a face on Mars. Religionists see the Virgin Mary on the side of a building. Paranormalists hear dead people speaking to them through a radio receiver. Conspiracy theorists think 9/11 was an inside job by the Bush administration. Is there a deeper ultimate cause for why people believe such weird things? There is. I call it “patternicity,” or the tendency to find meaningful patterns in meaningless noise.

Allow me to direct your attention to what Shermer believes:
"a deeper ultimate cause for why people believe such weird things" in regards to people who believe 9/11 was an inside job.

I have no respect for a man who is obviously so brainwashed and cannot see outside the box he is inside. Shermer is a diehard skeptic and hates conspiracy theorists. He obviously is a big believer of not questioning anything your government tells you. Great guy. I wouldn't be surprised if he has a picture of Hitler on his desk as Henry Ford did.

Here's the link I got his disgusting comment from:
www.michaelshermer.com...

Originally posted by Afterthought
Allow me to direct your attention to what Shermer believes:
"a deeper ultimate cause for why people believe such weird things" in regards to people who believe 9/11 was an inside job.

I have no respect for a man who is obviously so brainwashed and cannot see outside the box he is inside. Shermer is a diehard skeptic and hates conspiracy theorists. He obviously is a big believer of not questioning anything your government tells you. Great guy. I wouldn't be surprised if he has a picture of Hitler on his desk as Henry Ford did.

Sorry. I forgot that critical thinking and questioning others was heroic and genius only when directed toward those you didn't like. Obviously he's overstepped his bounds by applying scientific criticism to whatever theory you like.

reply to post by OnTheLevel213


Patterns are patterns. Whether discussed in physical or psychological terms. They are repeating elements.

You stated that I was mistaken and suggested that I read Shermer's work, which I did. I don't agree with his comments or views, but I did as you suggested, then replied that I was not mistaken and that I did not respect Shermer's views. What theory are you speaking about?

Springmeier's theory is that repetitive and systematic (patterned) abuse is used to fracture the mind. Shermer is also saying that the mind seeks out patterns. This alone backs up Springmeier's words and that they aren't fiction as you and Josh Norton are claiming. If a person understands how the brain naturally works, then one can use this same process to make it function a certain way. Make the brain function how they want it to. This doesn't seem very fictional to me. It makes complete sense.

Regarding Shermer. No, I don't have any respect for a man who slams individuals who believe in UFOs, ghosts, false flag attacks, etc. It is quite obvious whose side he is on and is proud of this.

Do you know if Shermer is a Mason or not?

Originally posted by Afterthought
You stated that I was mistaken and suggested that I read Shermer's work, which I did.

You originally referenced patternicity as a tendency to recognize existing patterns, where the definition concerns mistaken observation of a pattern in meaningless data.

I don't agree with his comments or views, but I did as you suggested, then replied that I was not mistaken and that I did not respect Shermer's views.

No, you misrepresented him as opposing inquiry, somethinghe never has and never will suggest.

Springmeier's theory is that repetitive and systematic (patterned) abuse is used to fracture the mind. Shermer is also saying that the mind seeks out patterns. This alone backs up Springmeier's words and that they aren't fiction as you and Josh Norton are claiming.

So Shermer stating that the mind looks for patterns in meaningless data backs up Springmeier's claim that a pattern is intentionally inserted? Stretch that any further and you might pull its hamstring.

If a person understands how the brain naturally works, then one can use this same process to make it function a certain way. Make the brain function how they want it to. This doesn't seem very fictional to me. It makes complete sense.

That's the problem; "researchers" select theories on explanatory power rather than basis in fact.

Regarding Shermer. No, I don't have any respect for a man who slams individuals who believe in UFOs, ghosts, false flag attacks, etc. It is quite obvious whose side he is on and is proud of this.

You do know it's possible to just, say, disagree with you, right? Not everyone's a shill, and the every-smart-person-either-agrees-with-me-or-is-in-on-it view you have of the world conveys more than a little arrogance.

Do you know if Shermer is a Mason or not?

A) See previous sentence. That's at least the second time you've accused someone with whom you have disagreed of being a Mason on this board, with no credible evidence. Honestly, it's a little tedious.
B) As an atheist, Shermer is ineligible. That would have taken ten seconds to find out for yourself, and yet he's the one with the antipathy toward inquiry.

reply to post by OnTheLevel213

No, you misrepresented him as opposing inquiry, somethinghe never has and never will suggest.

No. I took his views from his own website. If he thinks that people are crazy for believing in UFOs and has no question in his mind about the official 9/11 story as told to us by our government, then I have no respect for this man. He believes that people who don't believe the official story are crazy. He believes this. It is on his website. Do you agree with him? Do you share his views that conspiracy theorists are crazier than bat crap?

According to his statements, of course he is an enemy of Fritz Springmeier and anyone else who believes that the Illuminati are conducting mind control experiments. As far as Shermer is concerned, I'd say he's one of the top ten enemies of every free thinking individual.

People who question things and seek the truth are not crazy. They are not enemies of the state. They are not terrorists. Springmeier was set up. It's no coincidence that his sentence was for 111 months. It is not stated that his sentence was for 9.25 years.

Now, stop grasping at straws and show me some hard evidence that Springmeier's research and information are all lies. Pointing out who he says is a Mason, when they may or may not be is not proving anything. Show me something about the process of fracturing one's personality that is not possible. Tell me why someone cannot be turned into a mind control slave. Prove that it has nothing to do with sex slavery. Please. Point out something about programming/mind control that proves that it is not possible.

EDIT to add: From the ABOUT page of his website: "He (Shermer) is also the author of 'Why People Believe Weird Things' on pseudoscience, superstitions, and other confusions of our time."
Confusions? So, he thinks that we're not just crazy, but confused, too.

Originally posted by Afterthought
No. I took his views from his own website.

He obviously is a big believer of not questioning anything your government tells you.

That's what you said he said.

If he thinks that people are crazy for believing in UFOs and has no question in his mind about the official 9/11 story as told to us by our government, then I have no respect for this man.

I'm not asking you to respect him. I just think it'd be nice if you didn't comepletely misrepresent him.

He believes that people who don't believe the official story are crazy.

No, he believes that people who do believe that 9/11 was an inside job are crazy. There's a lot of leeway there.

He believes this. It is on his website. Do you agree with him? Do you share his views that conspiracy theorists are crazier than bat crap?

A lot of them are; most of the rest suffer from an intellectual arrogance their actual cognitive skills can't match, and resort to wild pseudoscience and pseudohistory as an artificial leg up on the general populace. (It should be noted that there's a mile of difference between legitimate non-mainstream theory and conspiracy theory.)

According to his statements, of course he is an enemy of Fritz Springmeier and anyone else who believes that the Illuminati are conducting mind control experiments. As far as Shermer is concerned, I'd say he's one of the top ten enemies of every free thinking individual.

I'd put people like Fritz Springmeier on that list. None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free.

People who question things and seek the truth are not crazy. They are not enemies of the state. They are not terrorists.

People who detonate bombs to distract people from the bank they're robbing are all three.

Springmeier was set up. It's no coincidence that his sentence was for 111 months. It is not stated that his sentence was for 9.25 years.

No, it's not. I believe I demonstrated my opinion as to why not.

Now, stop grasping at straws and show me some hard evidence that Springmeier's research and information are all lies.

I don't believe I've actually said that. I'm not sure JoshNorton has either. Josh said he's made some things up out of whole cloth, and demonstrated how they are false.

Pointing out who he says is a Mason, when they may or may not be is not proving anything.

It proves that he has little regard for factuality. That could mean he's outright lying, or it could mean he's a poor researcher. Either would cast doubt upon his reliability to a person endowed with a modicum of critical thinking skills.

Show me something about the process of fracturing one's personality that is not possible. Tell me why someone cannot be turned into a mind control slave. Prove that it has nothing to do with sex slavery. Please. Point out something about programming/mind control that proves that it is not possible.

It never was my claim that it's not possible. My claim is that it's not happening the way Springmeier describes it, if at all. I believe his inability to connect the players on the factual level precludes any trust in him, and his theories on Illuminati programming require you to trust him.