Illuminati: ArmageddonConspiracy vs. Fritz Springmeier

I've recently come across a couple different sources regarding the Illuminati and I'm really struck by how different of a description the two provide:

The sources are:
1) armageddonconspiracy.co.uk// - (**which claims to be authored by real Illuminati members**)
2) Fritz Springmeier and also Cisco Wheeler www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/illuminati_formula_min d_control.htm

To summarize before I go into more detail:

I don't believe that the Illuminati 'revealed' in armageddonconspiracy site would ever partake in any sort of violent rituals, abuse, mind control, etc which Springmeier accuses the Illuminati of. Anyone whose seen the site would agree. Armageddonconspiracy's authors, Illuminati or not, only seem like intelligent people who mainly want to root out the corruption of this world by religion and government...They do not come across as the type that would be evil, satanic, mind controlling child abusers, etc.

Also, the Illuminati of armageddonconspiracy claim to actually be against the controlling elites who people think of as NWO types which is surprising because Springmeier and many others believe that these NWO types are the Illuminati.
The armageddonconspiracy site actually talks about this exact discrepancy and says that it's actually an amazing victory of the true controlling elites to have tricked everyone into believing a lie that the Illuminati are the evil controllers.

I wonder, is one right and one wrong? Are people like Springmeier just confusing terms like Illuminati which should be something else?

The armageddonconspriacy site (claiming to be authored by actual Illuminati initiates) describes the Illuminati in what I consider a positive light. Similar to what Dan Brown speaks about in Angels and Demons, the site says the Illuminati are fiercely anti religion (aside from Illuminism) and call those revealed religions, mainly Christianity / Catholicism and Islam, to actually be the Satanic religions.
The site is very impressive with a vast amount of material regarding science, religion, government, god, politics, meritocracy (which they endorse as the best system), psychology, philosophy,physics...the list goes on. To anyone interested in these topics it is very impressive and basically the Illuminati don't seem so bad after all going by the material on the site. The authors are clearly very intelligent and they present some very worthwhile ideas that I'd personally like to see put into practice.
They favor an 100% inheritance tax which may seem bad at first thought but the site describes how it would help dismantle the ruling elite families that pass on their tremendous wealth through generations thus holding onto their unfair hold of massive power in gov. etc.


Anyone familiar with Fritz Springmeier will know that he doesn't speak about the Illuminati in any glowing terms like the armageddonconspiracy site. I'm not too familiar with his work yet but so far I see that he speaks about the Illuminati bloodlines as 13 ruling families which is surprisingly exactly the same types of people that the armageddonconspiracy site says they're opposed to.
Also, and even more serious, Springmeier claims that the Illuminati are the perpetrators of a vast mind control ring to create mind controlled slaves to do their bidding (to try to sum up). A co-author of his, Cisco Wheeler, claims that she herself was a victim of mind controller much of it at the hands of her father, who she says had strong political connections and was also a Grand Master within the Illuminati (and freemasons as well).


I am just curious what anyone's whose knowledgeable about these two sources or perspectives of opposing viewpoints thinks about this. I was started to take to the armageddonconspiracy site and yet Springmeier is just another source that claims the Illuminati is involved in rituals, child abuse, mind control, satanic worship, etc...
Part of me wonders if both sources could be true except for that Sprinmeier maybe has the titles of the secret groups wrong..meaning that he is wrong in calling the mind controllers (who may truly exist) Illuminati when in fact they are not the true illuminati.

link the sites please :]

Thanks :]

There was a point in time when secrets and secret societies were essential to maintain good and stop the bad, but that time has come to pass. There is a lot of propaganda that is spread by a lot of people, but the only way to knowledge is to find it yourself. It's all about making a good man a better man, not the opposite. The Knights Templar was ousted by the catholic church around the same time they left Europe, many people believe that Illuminati is of the Knights Templar bloodline. The new pope has reportedly made inquiries into a secret society in Hertford, the Knights Templar. He is thought to have contacted a top Hertfordshire historian and a records officer at County Hall in Hertford.

Originally posted by Jedimind
I don't believe that the Illuminati 'revealed' in armageddonconspiracy site would ever partake in any sort of violent rituals, abuse, mind control, etc which Springmeier accuses the Illuminati of. Anyone whose seen the site would agree. Armageddonconspiracy's authors, Illuminati or not, only seem like intelligent people who mainly want to root out the corruption of this world by religion and government...They do not come across as the type that would be evil, satanic, mind controlling child abusers, etc.

My young padawan,

The Devil is the FATHER of lies. He was once God's most beautiful creation; an Angel of Light so nearly perfect that he began to believe his own press and challenged the Almighty for the throne of Heaven itself. He was found wanting, and for his act of rebellion he was cast down.

Since then, he has spent every moment perfecting his lies - mixing them with truth - and putting his chess pieces into place so that he could deceive even the Elect and steal the souls of God's other creation - humanity - who our Father placed above the angels and commanded them to serve. Lucifer - the Light Bearer - refused to do as God wanted. Instead, he has committed himself to the destruction of humanity and he will do anything, say anything, and appear any way he needs to appear to in order to accomplish that goal.

Please don't be fooled. Any group that denies that Christ is the Son of God, and the Savior of humanity, is inspired by the Devil.

reply to post by Jedimind


I believe Springmier. Why would he be silenced like William Cooper if he wasnt telling the truth. Same with John Todd who was locked away by Strom Thurmond in SC before being killed.

I do believe there are illuminati type groups who are for Peace and well being but I have a feeling they are more hidden than the families we hear about or the 13 Royal Bloodlines. If their is Evil then there must also be Good to balance everything. The Truth will come out and Good will destroy the evil factions of the Illuminati.

Originally posted by Buford2
reply to post by Jedimind

 

If their is Evil then there must also be Good to balance everything. The Truth will come out and Good will destroy the evil factions of the Illuminati.

edit on 1-4-2011 by Buford2 because: (no reason given)

Just because evil exists within the Illuminati doesn't mean that the group was intended to be evil. And yes, the goodness shall prevail.

reply to post by ImmortalIntegrity


You are correct. I suppose these guys got corrupted with power especially after Albert Pike, Alister Crowley and the rest of those Devils minions took hold. The group who run this country and the world are evil as hell. War in every country and people think they are doing good. Wow.

Originally posted by OldCorpPlease don't be fooled. Any group that denies that Christ is the Son of God, and the Savior of humanity, is inspired by the Devil.

If Christianity helps you to be a better man my brother than proceed your worship, but it is evil we must eradicate, not peoples beliefs. Illuminati have the same right to their beliefs as the church, and we must all be held accountable for our actions.

reply to post by Jedimind


I bookmarked the former of the two sites last week and have been spending a few moments reading over some of the articles. Compelling stuff. As someone who does not subscribe to the doctrine of the big three and instead follows a more esoteric path it was actually a pretty fascinating read. Their stance on what they referred to as the Abrahamists was pretty heady.

2 options regarding the discrepancies:

1) Either one or the other source is providing intentionally false information

or

2) Simply put, White Hats, Black Hats

I am an infrequent poster the past year but this is something I am studying.

I have read about 1/3 of the site and, as someone else said, I find it compelling. I am not yet ready to say they are the real illuminati as they imply there is an OWO illiminati faction. The do mention Hidden Hand as a former member.

To those who are determined that this group is evil and against all you stand for, then I challenge you to at least "know you enemy" and discredit if you can. I would be interested in see any discrepencies.

I have read a couple of their free novels (very interesting) and it appears that, as with the rest of the world, the end justifies the means.

reply to post by Jedimind


Neither site is factual in basis. Armageddon.co.uk is coming from a classic Christian orthodoxy inversion paradigm, that is Gnosticism/Luciferianism and Springmeier is coming from a closeted, paranoid orthodox Christian worldview.
I mean who cares about "becoming God"? Bloody nonsense. And Springmeier's Illuminati as Satanic henchmen is ludicrous. Everything he writes is permeated by a "repent, turn to God and thou shalt be saved" simplistic tone. And no hard evidence either, Mere assertions.
Another thing Sprinmeier does is to enforce the traditional xenophobic bias that is the hallmark of many areas of right-wing conservative Christian paranoid worldviews, in his case the anti-european bias.
It's simple projection, they're using the idea of the Illuminati for their own purposes. The Illuminati, as claimed on various conspiracy websites, do not exist. This myth is based on the Bavarian Illuminati scare of the late 1700s, and particularly the scare that hit New England like napalm wildfire about the perception of a grandiose, subversive, and anarchic order set to disintegrate civilised society.
The Bavarian Illuminati, a society that actually existed and was annulled by the monarchy in Bavaria, was then morphed into this great legendary beast set on dominating the globe with repeated scare mongering by conspiracy headline grabbers through the years.

This is the prime problem with much of conspiracy culture; it substitutes myth, innuendo, half-truths, hack writing, sloppy research, insinuation, lies, propaganda, subjective bias, open prejudice, and wild conjecture in place of documented evidence of the historical type, logic, studious research, objective perspectives and presentation. If "The Illuminati" really existed then where is the evidence? For the modern iteration of the order? There is only evidence for the 18th century existence of the Bavarian Illuminati and it's disbandment.

When there are plenty of very real abuses of power, open manipulations and power plays of which the consequences are massive loss of life and carnage the world over by various elite factions, why concentrate on a badly constructed mythic arc?

Samuel Huntington, as much as I don't agree with his politics, put it most succinctly: it's a "clash of civilizations," "the West versus the rest." The world is lot more complex than monolithic conspiracy theories imply.
The globe is probably coalescing to a kind of "New World Order," but here are distinct and totally opposed camps fighting over what that order will actually be.

reply to post by Extant Taxon


Thanks for your input...You make some great points there and I think I'm in agreement as far as what you say about Springmeier. His viewpoint does seem to be a bit tainted by the paranoid Orthodox Christian worldview as you put it. I'm not quite sure what to make of the armageddonconsipracy site still (as far as being written by actual Illuminati or if they still exist in the stereotypical way that most would imagine) but the points you bring up about the Illuminati definitely seem valid and are the reasons why I remain skeptical of the site.

Like you said, where is the hard evidence of any of this stuff? I know that sort of thing would be difficult to obtain with regards to a secret society like the Illuminati but Alex Jones did infiltrate Bohemian Grove for instance and get actual video footage of the rituals..There's footage of rituals at Skull and Bones ceremonies as well. Most groups talked about in conspiracy circles are generally accepted to at least exist, ie. Bildaberg group, Freemasons, etc....It's usually just their actions and intentions that are debated.. There doesn't seem to be consensus as far as the Illuminati's existence in the modern day though. Perhaps the simplest answer is the correct one in this case and the reason there isn't a consensus is that they simply do not exist anymore, at least as a continuation of the true factual Illuminati in Bavaria.

As with most conspiracy topics, most talk of the Illuminati seems shrouded in conjecture, half - truths, sloppy research, etc as you pointed out...I guess that's why people are still discussing it to this day and will probably continue to for quite a while..This disinfo., misinfo., etc. is so difficult, if not impossible, to sift through to find truth that it's almost pointless to try...It's similar to when dealing with 9/11 conspiracy theories or the Kennedy assassination. It's volumes of info when the truth could be summed up in a couple sentences. This is why I'm reaching out here to get other people's help on trying to sift through it all.

I suppose I'm just like so many others who initially became interested in the Illuminati because of the mysterious nature of it but after a while, I want some solid answers about who? what? where? and why?...I can't help but wonder, Are they behind closed doors somewhere in robes performing some wild magical ceremonies and plotting revolutions and subversion of power? Are they like the secret society seen in Kubrick's Eyes Wide Shut? (I'm not literally asking these questions I'm just saying these are the type of things that come to mind.) I know that they supposedly had affiliations with certain things like Ordo Templo Orientis which is a real magical society who exists as an official organization for anyone to see.

I do wonder, as I mentioned in the OP, if there is in fact a vast mind control network like the one Springmeier speaks of and if there's a connection with MK Ultra. Perhaps these things go on, even on a wide scale, but it's not Illuminati doing it....I doubt I'll ever know for sure...I certainly would never hope to find out the hard way if you know what I mean.

reply to post by Buford2


I'm not sure that I believe that Springmeier was in jail just to be silenced...I'm just saying, I think that sometimes conspiracy theorists are a little too quick to assume that just because someone ends up dead or in jail that that automatically validates their that person's theories...The best example of this would be Bill Cooper. I think he was correct in some of his assertions and general opinions but I don't think his being killed necessarily factors into validating what he said. It could very well have been only to do with ongoing problems with local law enforcement which was admitted by him to have been going on due to disagreements with neighbors, etc.

I've heard that John Todd has been discredited though I don't know much detail about it. Not to get off track too much talking about him or Bill Cooper since I'd like to focus on Illuminati and the sources I mention, but I kind of suspect that John Todd was also a bit biased with a 'paranoid orthodox Christian worldview' as Extant Taxon put it when referring to Springmeier....

Originally posted by Extant Taxon
reply to post by Jedimind

 

Neither site is factual in basis. Armageddon.co.uk is coming from a classic Christian orthodoxy inversion paradigm, that is Gnosticism/Luciferianism and Springmeier is coming from a closeted, paranoid orthodox Christian worldview.

On "The Movement."

Lucifer


With regards to armageddonconspiracy.co.uk... and the-movement.info...

"The Movement" as they call themselves have activists all over the Internet including on some of the forums I frequent, such as this one. I have chatted with them and placed posts on their discussion board, but for a group of allegedly 6000 people, their board is not very busy; however that is not meant as a criticism, just a general comment. "The Movement" are of course, not "the" Illuminati; they are merely an attempting to revive the ideals and political agenda of the Bavarian Illuminati, and are one of many such movements, including the O.T.O. whose 8th degree bestows the titles of "Perfect Pontiff of the Illuminati" and "Epopt of the Illuminati."

Despite my claim that Masonic degrees are "fake degrees" of knowledge, I should point out that I don't consider the O.T.O degrees to be "fake." Similarly with regards to "The Movement;" having read my way through their site, I am obliged to offer ideological solidarity with them.

However...... the legacy of the Illuminati is not to be found exclusively in a single organisation; not that I wish to discourage the activists of "The Movement" in any way, who seek to promote Neo-Illuminism; however the legacy of "The Illuminati" is a philosophical and political one; and there are myriads of us, and I include in this all true Thelemites, many Neopagans and "all" political Anarchists (i.e., Anarcho-Communists), with the exception of course of the Anarcho-Capitalists who are essentially the worst kind of Capitalists in the ideological sense.

I think that the term "Neo-Illuminism" or "Neo-Illuminati" is probably more appropriate today, since Weishaupt seemed to have a fascination with Jesus and apparently revered him somewhat as a kind of proto-Anarchist or proto-Jacobin (French Republican) martyr; this was of course quite to be expected for a man of his period, especially as he lived prior to the 19th century rise of Biblical literary, textual and historical criticism, and the impossible "Quest for the Historical Jesus;" however post Friedrich Nietzsche and the 19th century Anarchists and Communists, this reverence for Jesus is generally not universally shared by Anarchists and Thelemites of the 21st century apart from possibly a few Anarchist Christians.

A "movement," and I mean "any" movement, can controlled, manipulated and corrupted; even one of the leading committee members of the the major Marxist Party in the UK, the SWP (Socialist Worker's Party) was, for a few years, a person on the payroll of British Military Intelligence, and I suspect that many other Communist groups will have been infiltrated also; I do not of course in way mean to demean the membership of such groups who are part of the current International Revolutionary Vanguard; however "any" organisation can be infiltrated; a philosophy is another matter.

A philosophy cannot be so easily manipulated. It requires no membership fees; however it does require relentless criticism of those who would claim to represent it. Philosophers have the power to change the world more than any living tyrant, general or banking cabal, for a philosophy can outlive the life of the philosopher for 100's and 1000's of years into the future, and shed more blood than any general; and unfortunately the human sacrifice of martyrs, tyrants, the economic aristocracy and the presthood / clergy will inevitably be required to create the New Heaven and New Earth.

I mean who cares about "becoming God"? Bloody nonsense.

It requires some explanation; “there is no god but man” is not about becoming the Creator of the Universe, assuming that She even exists, it is about becoming "a" god (or a goddess) and having divine (godlike) powers, which has nothing to do with stage magic or miracles, it is about the triumph of the human will and inserting one's will into human history. If human history is to progress, it will only occur by a triumph of human will in opposition to "God's will" as promoted by the various proponents of the disease of organised religion.

And Springmeier's Illuminati as Satanic henchmen is ludicrous. Everything he writes is permeated by a "repent, turn to God and thou shalt be saved" simplistic tone. And no hard evidence either, Mere assertions.

Another thing Sprinmeier does is to enforce the traditional xenophobic bias that is the hallmark of many areas of right-wing conservative Christian paranoid worldviews, in his case the anti-european bias.

Yes. To a Christian, a "Satanist" is often any person who disagrees with them or who has a different religion or philosophy, and since they lie and misrepresent the religious fanatic depicted in the Gospels, it is quite understandable that they would have no qualms about making up elaborate lies and conspiracy theories about their enemies.

It's simple projection, they're using the idea of the Illuminati for their own purposes.

If you are referring to "The Movement," I am going to suspend judgement on them, since they seem to be quite ideologically correct to me, but of course it is necessary to be suspicious and critical of all such formal organisations which claim to represent a philosophy; however such criticism would not be antagonistic on my part.

The Illuminati, as claimed on various conspiracy websites, do not exist. This myth is based on the Bavarian Illuminati scare of the late 1700s, and particularly the scare that hit New England like napalm wildfire about the perception of a grandiose, subversive, and anarchic order set to disintegrate civilised society.
The Bavarian Illuminati, a society that actually existed and was annulled by the monarchy in Bavaria, was then morphed into this great legendary beast set on dominating the globe with repeated scare mongering by conspiracy headline grabbers through the years.

This is the prime problem with much of conspiracy culture; it substitutes myth, innuendo, half-truths, hack writing, sloppy research, insinuation, lies, propaganda, subjective bias, open prejudice, and wild conjecture in place of documented evidence of the historical type, logic, studious research, objective perspectives and presentation. If "The Illuminati" really existed then where is the evidence? For the modern iteration of the order? There is only evidence for the 18th century existence of the Bavarian Illuminati and it's disbandment.

Certainly the conspiracy culture theory of The Illuminati controlling the world is ridiculous; it would be a much better world if it were true. I am not so sure that the 18th century Illuminati disappeared just because the Bavarians outlawed it, however; they allegedly had around 10,000 members after all, and many of them were allegedly Freemasons; it is not so easy to kill a philosophy or a secret society by banning it in Bavaria; however if the Illuminati did infiltrate Masonry, then the effects of this are no longer visible; regular Freemasons today are not Anarchists and Anti-Capitalists, but rather they are mostly evangelical Capitalists and an assortment of Anglo-American state terrorist / narco-terrorist collaborators, as represented by the Masonic gang on this discussion board.

Men do not join the Masons for revolutionary purposes or for the economic salvation of humankind; it is today little more than a Capitalist gang which men join to rise up the Capitalist food chain and to assist their accumulation of Capital. In my 15 years or so on the Internet, I can probably count only two Masonic Internet activists who have revolutionary politics, and in terms of the world of print publications, I do not know of a single Masonic author who fits that description; they are almost exclusively all Masonic conspiracy theorists; today the Freemasons are an assortment of various anti-Communist vermin; however this has not always been the case in past history, but it is certainly almost universally true today.

Samuel Huntington, as much as I don't agree with his politics, put it most succinctly: it's a "clash of civilizations," "the West versus the rest." The world is lot more complex than monolithic conspiracy theories imply.
The globe is probably coalescing to a kind of "New World Order," but here are distinct and totally opposed camps fighting over what that order will actually be.

I see the world situation rather simply, as most Communists do; we live in the International Dictatorship of Capitalism, and since the end of WW2 in particular we have been witnessing armed, violent, apocalyptic, imperialistic, genocidal “World Capitalist Revolution,” by all means necessary including wars, assassinations, military coups, false flag operations, etc., which has thus far been very successful for the Capitalists and they have even managed to hand Eastern Europe over from the Stalinist style Communists to the organised crime gangs, such as the Russian and East European Mafia, and I am not quite sure who is worse, the Stalinists or the gangsters.

There are many independent nations in the world, but most of them are in debt to the same elite banking Cabal. I don't see it as fundamentally East vs. West. Obviously China is an upcoming world power, with a huge economy, a huge population, a huge army and nuclear weapons; however despite the 50 million or so Communist Party members in China, it is very much a Capitalist and Neo-fascist state.

I am unable to prove exactly what their alliance is with the major banking cabal of the Capitalist elite, but I have it on good authority, from a personal acquaintance who is ex-military intelligence, involved in investment banking and whose social circle is includes some of the most evil people imaginable (“evil” as an anti-Capitalist would judge them), that certain Chinese leaders have been bribed with billions of dollars; they know who their economic masters are, and they are not Chinese; the Chinese leadership seem to be just another Capitalist gang who have submitted to the International Dictatorship of Capitalism; though this situation may not be permanent.

"The Ancien Régime (old order) is a Satanic Order. The Illuminati's noble and historic mission is to release man's higher self by destroying the archons - the princes of the world - who prosecute Satan's will and hold mankind in their thrall. Their corruption has reached its zenith in France. That diabolical tyranny is ripe for destruction. All that is required is a spark. We are the spark." Adam Weishaupt, 1789

Of course the Ancien Regime, refers mostly to the French absolute monarchy and it's three classes of the aristocracy, the clergy and the proletariat, though the system was much the same in many other states. I don't think that in in the 21st century one will find many Freemasons willing to guillotine the clergy and the economic and aristocratic elites; on the contrary; particularly as their Grand Master is the Queen's cousin; they are much more likely to be defenders of the Dicatatorship of Capitalism, and with around 50 lodges in the UK for the military they are certainly willing to back up their beliefs with genocide, and with several hundred lodges in the CIty of London allegedly (the financial districts) they are are also willing to back up their beliefs through the enslavement and impoverishment of humankind.

The "Old World Order" of monarchies and regional tyrants has of course partly passed away; the old aristocracy are no longer "the" ultimate economic elites, and many states are now Capitalist Republics; the "New World Order" referred to by George Bush, Gordon Brown and others is of course not the rule of the old aristocratic establishment, but the rule of the International Dictatorship of Capitalism, which is essentually the rule of elite bankers, which is fast becoming mostly a "gambling business," since 95% of the world's economy is now "gambling (i.e., derivatives).

Lucifer

reply to post by Jedimind


There's too much conjecture out there, and the worst error is to consolidate what may be unrelated, exclusive pieces of information via a typical join the dots conspiracy methodology into a grand unified conspiracy theory of everything. So then you have the Freemasons allied with the Bilderbergers, tied to the Rosicrucians, in league with the Communist International, led by the Learned Elders of Zion, attended to by The Order of Skull and Bones, Scroll & Key, Wolf's Head, et al, infiltrated by the Jesuits, overtures made by the Vatican and Opus Dei, and on and on and on. And that all these are ruled by an omnipotent overlord group termed the Illuminati.
It's pure fantasy.

The MK Ultra experiments are evidence of the co-operation between the chief cornerstone of Western civilization, the Anglo-American establishment. That series of projects (of which MK Ultra was just one) bore fruit in one respect only, all else being a failure - the interrogation techniques used by the U.S. military in Guantanamo Bay and the like.

Systemic abuses of power occur, different hierarchies (most usually relating to nations and whole cultures/civilizations) sometimes cooperate in furthering agendas where their interests intersect. Then the next day they'll stab each other in the back. Even whilst one department of a state is doing clandestine business with another, a different department from the same state will be sticking the knife into it's opposite number department of the very same state that has been working in unison in the aforementioned area. The recent assassination of a Hammas militant leader and arms dealer by Mossad, illegally using U.K. passports is one example - Britain has always been traditionally aligned with Israel, and still are, despite that debacle.

I see the truth of matters as more mundane than the myth of an all-powerful occult order with a global purview, and shot through with shades of gray.

reply to post by Lucifer777


Wow...It's immediately apparent that you're much more knowledgeable and familiar with these topics than I currently am and it definitely helps clarify some of this stuff. I appreciate your input. Thanks.

Some of what you said about titles and terms of these groups kind of affirms my suspicion that often times when we talk about these things we're simply confusing terms to describe the different societies. For example, just as a hypothetical, if a group is carrying on in the way that we'd imagine the Illuminati to for instance, it doesn't really matter if we refer to them as (or if they refer to themselves as) Illuminati or not. What's important is their actions, their philosophy, etc.

That's really interesting what you said about philosophers' potential to change the world more than the ordinary tyrants or usual suspects because their philosophy can live on long after they're gone, often causing much bloodshed...Hopefully newer better philosophies will be a force for a more positive effects and changes going forward.

Also, what you said about Communism and Capitalism is definitely food for thought. I never thought about Capitalism in those terms.

Secret societies exist for many reasons and one is that since the world is filled with people at varying degrees of psychological and spiritual development, it is wise to filter knowledge in light of what Jesus meant by this aphorism” “ Cast not pearls at the feet of swine”

Indeed, that is why organized and basic religion exists for. In spite of some people’s strange theories, religion is for the general populace, and therefore the secrets of religion are reserved for those who seek the esoteric on their own and weed out the chaff of religious doctrine to reach what the mystics call . . . real wine.

Many who are exposed to higher thought prematurely [don’t cast pearls at the feet of swine] will and have distorted it because their developmental level actually is internally at a low level despite they may have intellectual capacity at a higher level.

That is the issue with these guys like this Illuminati group.
They want to expose people to being “god” when half the human race are still developmentally at a very primitive level.

This is dangerous and is the cause of ALL perverse doctrinal distortions that we find in for example, primitive Christianity, and their idea of a literal son of god . . . . An esoteric notion that has been bent out of all proportion where today people believe it literally.

On the other hand these neo-satanic so-called mystical groups like this guy are just as bad with their religious hatred and bigotry all pretending to be mystics with secret knowledge while having inner virulent hatred which in itself alone immediately excludes them from the grace of love. They lack understanding, though they have exposure to esoteric information, therefore they espouse their hatred and distorted views of religion, though justified somewhat in the sense that indeed the religionist have gone way awry— by excluding love, tolerance and understanding from their doctrines— nevertheless these satanic mystics themselves seem filled with a similar hatred and lack of understanding. They dont teach unity they teach seperation.

Originally posted by Lucifer777

Originally posted by Extant Taxon
reply to post by Jedimind

 

Neither site is factual in basis. Armageddon.co.uk is coming from a classic Christian orthodoxy inversion paradigm, that is Gnosticism/Luciferianism and Springmeier is coming from a closeted, paranoid orthodox Christian worldview.

On "The Movement."

Lucifer


With regards to armageddonconspiracy.co.uk... and the-movement.info...

"The Movement" as they call themselves have activists all over the Internet inlcuding on some of the forums I requent, such as this one. I have chatted with them and placed posts on their discussion board, but for a group of allegedly 6000 people, their board is not very busy; however that is not meant as a criticism, just a general comment. "The Movement" are of course, not "the" Illuminati; they are merely an attempting to revive the ideals and political agenda of the Bavarian Illuminati and are one of many such movements, including the O.T.O. whose 8th degree bestows the titles of "Perfect Pontiff of the Illuminati" and "Epopt of the Illuminati."

Whether or not they're using the term "Illuminati" as a convenient placeholder for the instauration of Illuminism is moot. Their claims, in terms of the historical record, are not factual.

The claims made on the following pages, even if they are merely "playing with ideas" for their own purposes, don't have any basis in fact or the historical record. As I originally wrote.

armageddonconspiracy.co.uk...

armageddonconspiracy.co.uk...

armageddonconspiracy.co.uk... 29.htm

Originally posted by Lucifer777

I mean who cares about "becoming God"? Bloody nonsense.

It requires some explanation; “there is no god but man” is not about becoming the Creator of the Universe, assuming that She even exists, it is about becoming "a" god (or a goddess) and having divine powers, which has nothing to do with stage magic or miracles, it is about the triumph of the human will and inserting one's will into human history. If human history is to progress, it will only occur by a triumph of human will in opposition to "God's will" as promoted by the various proponents of the disease of organised religion.

I don't need an explanation of the metaphor. I just don't agree with the premise. I have no interest in becoming a being as you describe, especially, as ever, it's based according to the thought forms you subscribe to consisting of an either/or choice, a binary opposition to the God of the Abrahamic faiths.
I reject the fallacious dualism inherent in this.

Originally posted by Lucifer777

And Springmeier's Illuminati as Satanic henchmen is ludicrous. Everything he writes is permeated by a "repent, turn to God and thou shalt be saved" simplistic tone. And no hard evidence either, Mere assertions.

Another thing Sprinmeier does is to enforce the traditional xenophobic bias that is the hallmark of many areas of right-wing conservative Christian paranoid worldviews, in his case the anti-european bias.

Yes. To a Christian, a "Satanist" is often any person who disagrees with them or who has a different religion or philosophy, and since they lie and misrepresent the religious fanatic depicted in the Gospels, it is quite understandable that they would have no qualms about making up elaborate lies and conspiracy theories about their enemies.

I tend to agree, but with the caveat that many of these religious paranoids actually believe what they write, even if it's entirely specious.

Originally posted by Lucifer777

It's simple projection, they're using the idea of the Illuminati for their own purposes.

If you are referring to "The Movement," I am going to suspend judgement on them, since they seem to be quite ideologically correct to me, but of course it is necessary to be suspicious and critical of all such formal organisations which claim to represent a philosophy; however such criticism would not be antagonistic on my part.

Even if "The Movement" is only using the idea of Illuminism allegorically they would still be using it largely as blank slate to project their own agenda onto. But I was referring to both sides, as per my original post.

Originally posted by Lucifer777

The Illuminati, as claimed on various conspiracy websites, do not exist. This myth is based on the Bavarian Illuminati scare of the late 1700s, and particularly the scare that hit New England like napalm wildfire about the perception of a grandiose, subversive, and anarchic order set to disintegrate civilised society.
The Bavarian Illuminati, a society that actually existed and was annulled by the monarchy in Bavaria, was then morphed into this great legendary beast set on dominating the globe with repeated scare mongering by conspiracy headline grabbers through the years.

This is the prime problem with much of conspiracy culture; it substitutes myth, innuendo, half-truths, hack writing, sloppy research, insinuation, lies, propaganda, subjective bias, open prejudice, and wild conjecture in place of documented evidence of the historical type, logic, studious research, objective perspectives and presentation. If "The Illuminati" really existed then where is the evidence? For the modern iteration of the order? There is only evidence for the 18th century existence of the Bavarian Illuminati and it's disbandment.

Certainly the conspiracy culture theory of The Illuminati controlling the world is ridiculous; it would be a much better world if it were true. I am not so sure that the 18th century Illuminati disappeared just because the Bavarians outlawed it, however; they allegedly had around 10,000 members after all, and many of them were allegedly Freemasons; it is not so easy to kill a philosophy or a secret society by banning it in Bavaria; however if the Illuminati did infiltrate Masonry, then the effects of this are no longer visible; regular Freemasons today are not Anarchists and Anti-Capitalists, but rather they are mostly evangelical Capitalists and an assortment of Anglo-American state terrorist / narco-terrorist collaborators, as represented by the Masonic gang on this discussion board.

I see no reason to place any credence in the notion without evidence. The best that can be said with any sort of certainty is their philosophies have remained alive and influenced many revolutionary, Marxist, and anarchist organizations. Also their use of hermetically sealed cells embedded within a larger hierarchy has probably formed the basis for terrorist/freedom fighter/revolutionary groups the world over.

Originally posted by Lucifer777

Samuel Huntington, as much as I don't agree with his politics, put it most succinctly: it's a "clash of civilizations," "the West versus the rest." The world is lot more complex than monolithic conspiracy theories imply.
The globe is probably coalescing to a kind of "New World Order," but here are distinct and totally opposed camps fighting over what that order will actually be.

I see the world situation rather simply, as most Communists do; we live in the International Dictatorship of Capitalism, and since the end of WW2 in particular we have been witnessing armed, violent, apocalyptic, imperialistic, genocidal “World Capitalist Revolution,” by all means necessary including wars, assassinations, military coups, false flag operations, etc., which has thus far been very successful for the Capitalists and they have even managed to hand Eastern Europe over from the Stalinist style Communists to the organised crime gangs, such as the Russian and East European Mafia, and I am not quite sure who is worse, the Stalinists or the gangsters.

There are many independent nations in the world, but most of them are in debt to the same elite banking Cabal. I don't see it as fundamentally East vs. West. Obviously China is an upcoming world power, with a huge economy, a huge population, a huge army and nuclear weapons; however despite the 50 million or so Communist Party members in China, it is very much a Capitalist and Neo-fascist state.

I'm sticking with my prosaic take on things, as relayed earlier, though I'm flexible when new, sound information seems to be presented. Though I think my worldview on the "clash of civilizations" is largely compatible to yours.

Originally posted by Lucifer777
"The Ancien Régime (old order) is a Satanic Order. The Illuminati's noble and historic mission is to release man's higher self by destroying the archons - the princes of the world - who prosecute Satan's will and hold mankind in their thrall. Their corruption has reached its zenith in France. That diabolical tyranny is ripe for destruction. All that is required is a spark. We are the spark." Adam Weishaupt, 1789

Is this a real quote from Weishaupt? I'm not sure, and having not read all his writings at all I can't really concretely comment. Would he actually have used the largely Gnostic term "archons"?



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reply to post by Extant Taxon


I couldn't agree more that conspiracy theorists are often guilty of grouping different areas together to make a 'grand unified conspiracy theory of everything', as you put it, when in fact this doesn't match the reality of the situation.
I also agree with you that the truth about all of these things is probably more mundane than an all powerful occult secret society controlling everything around us.
Whether the Illuminati exist as people portray them or not, it probably isn't reasonable to assume that any one group could wield so much power by themselves.

?Could such illuminati groups be considered as Cults be they satanic or not. I have personal experince as a member of The Black Acolytes, learning some of the real truths involving a propoganda war against the left hand path. And too of ritual knowledge and that mind control programming.
For many off you it can become muddled in your minds as to the reasonings of the illuminati, ?is it satanism or is it something like a false purity. I can only reveal one thing and it is that there are only tainted vibrations that truly govern The INTELLECT.