Freemasons - I have a few questions.

reply to post by SecretSky

Why aren't women allowed? Is it simply tradition? And if so, is that tradition simply because at that time women were disqualified from most things? (voting/education etc.).

I know a few female masons. They are the relatives of a close friend who's grandfather was the chief of police in the town where I grew up and he was a high ranking mason and although he is no longer with us, his name still evokes an awful lot of leverage. I know this because my friend has the same last name.

As far as the women who are affiliated with the masons there, they are called Eastern Stars and I am not joking when I say that they are the epitome of selflessness. Always volunteering and always willing to help for whatever cause that comes along. They themselves are held in high esteem as well in that town.

The order of the Eastern Star is a society designed for the wives, daughters, and female relatives of men affiliated with Masonry. Affiliated Master Masons who are in good standing may also join. According to the Order of the Eastern Star, they claim no association with Masonry. However, the causes and doctrines are extremely similar.

www.easternstar.org...

I just wanted to add that this is a really good thread here. I remember not too long ago having a discussion on these boards with a few masons and the fact that there are some things which cannot be taught was brought up. This is very true. There are just some things that people may believe are being kept a secret but the reality is that it just cannot be taught. It has to be discovered and or learned.

*snip*


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Originally posted by SecretSky
I have to say, I'm impressed with the replies. Thank you to all the Freemasons replying so fast!

So far, I agree with the strong moral values and goals all of you have. I also appreciate the openness of a perceived 'secret' society. It seems obvious to me now that you all have the worst marketing team in the world

But - I have some more questions!

5. Since Freemasons are willing to share their knowledge, but not the form/wording of it, is there a WIKI type of project which shares the knowledge but not the wording?
6. What is the most valuable/important thing you have learned as a Freemason?

P.S. I believe there is only 1 lodge in the whole country where I live now (Poland). Pretty far from where I live.

Go to wlnp.pl...

reply to post by SecretSky

NVM

The "secret" is that there is no secret. Seriously. But to get there you sure work pretty darn hard trying to figure out the O`so grandios secret, and what you learn on your journey; not just about yourself but of the world around you, history and traditions ( all seen through Masonic-goggles of course ), is supposed to be the higher goal of the whole masonic experience. The point of having secrets and initiations is to push you forward on a spiritual journey by triggering your curiosity and the o`so human need to be "in the loop" of something. This is why the framework of Masonry is build up the way it is, to feed and trigger certain human emotions.

And the knowledge you pick up on the way you are supposed to pass on to the lower ranks eventually. And the idea should be that the Freemasons are keepers of that knowledge and traditions. Of course they pick and choose among the traditions and information and tools to maintain this after their own set of rules and guidelines and interests. But there is nothing to it other than being a School of Life.
In theory. Then of course there are these elements that exploit the Craft just to further their own reputation and expand their circle of "friends" and brothers just to gain more influence outside the tempel. But all that dont really have anything to do with Freemasonry in itself, does it.
If a paedophile works in a kindergarden and he gets busted on those charges, you dont shut down the kindergarden to stop paedophilia.

No secrets. No tricks. No world domination. If you ask a million masons you will get a million different answers. But the main goal for the individual mason is spiritual growth. The goal of the Craft is to be a tempel of knowledge and to support the society and help maintain stability and growth, to seek a better future for us all.
This aspect has been downplayed and overlooked not only by the society and "outsiders" but in the last decade also by many masons who work within the Craft. So....there is no easy answer really to that question. Depends on who you ask and how you look at it.

But i can tell you that much at least; there is no secret.

Originally posted by Blasphemer
The goal of the Craft is to be a tempel of knowledge and to support the society and help maintain stability and growth, to seek a better future for us all.
This aspect has been downplayed and overlooked not only by the society and "outsiders" but in the last decade also by many masons who work within the Craft. So....there is no easy answer really to that question. Depends on who you ask and how you look at it.

But i can tell you that much at least; there is no secret.

Thanks very much for the well thought out reply! I have gathered from previous replies in this thread that any secrets involved in Freemasonry are pretty much only used for recognizing other Freemasons, and not of any other significance. The real goal, from what I gather so far is improvement of people, by means of a journey of learning (via ceremonies).

As you said - in the last decade you have observed that many Masons have downplayed the significance of the goal of the Craft. Why do you think this is?

Have any other Freemasons noticed this same change?

Originally posted by raiders247
Heres my opinion from what I have found out:

Lower ranking free-masons usually get together for harmless fraternal activities and such, while the higher degree masons congregate in secrecy for World domination.

I don't know if you're being serious, because in all honesty it sounds sarcastic. Point being, my grandpa was a 33rd degree mason, and I own lots of his old stuff, and my mom was very close with him, there's absolutely nothing to suggest sinister goals or "world domination". All it is is just a bunch of old and young guys getting together and helping out the community. I'd assume they keep things in secrecy, because some of their rules and traditions are a little strange, but look at the time when they came around.

reply to post by SecretSky


Yes. I've noticed it. We don't get to "haze" anybody.

The old-timers tell some pretty funny stories about their initiations, but these days, we are very subdued. I think far too many Masons these days think joining the Masons is the same as joining the Elks or the Chamber of Commerce. Far too many do it for networking, instead of doing it for spiritual improvement. As with all things, it comes down to money. Too many lodges are operating on shoe-string budgets, and they can't afford to be too picky on who they put through, because they might go bankrupt without new members.

Also, we used to blackball people, just to see if they would reapply, and see how bad they wanted in. These days, that would never happen, people lose interest too fast, and they would just move along to something else. Nobody puts much effort into anything these days. If it is hard, they just quit and find something else.

That part is disappointing to those of us that love Masonry.

Originally posted by SecretSky
As you said - in the last decade you have observed that many Masons have downplayed the significance of the goal of the Craft. Why do you think this is?

Have any other Freemasons noticed this same change?

Certainly I think it's true that areas of interest and focus have changed a number of times in the 300-500 years Masonry's been around. To point out a few, in the 1800s when many of the appendant degrees (Scottish Rite, etc) were first formulated, there was a certain romanticism surrounding chivalry and chivalric values & virtues. That's why so many of those degrees have titles like "Knight of the such and such". I would argue that during that era there were probably more members interested in the philosophical side of things. Keeping in mind that educated gentlemen of that age would have been well versed in greek and latin, would have read the "classics", etc.

There was very likely a shift leading up to and following WWII, when Masonic number swelled to their highest ever. It became a lot less of a "high society" gathering, and men of all walks of life joined. I have no doubt that many of the new members (if not most) didn't have that same education or cultural background, but they carried on the traditions nonetheless.

In the 1960s we went through a generation of people who weren't "joiners" like their fathers had been, and numbers dropped significantly.

I think that today in the 00's and early 10's there is a renewed interest in the mysteries; people who interact primarily socially through the internet are longing for a place where they can get together with like-minded friends have have their voice heard. We're starting to see a slight uptick in membership numbers again for the first time in a long while.

Originally posted by kingstonp
Go to wlnp.pl...

It's funny that you post the link to the Polish Grand Lodge - I was very close to it in Warsaw today funnily enough, but didn't have enough time to go and have a look. I found the address though, and some photos online. It look's quite an odd building from what I have seen

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by SecretSky

 

Yes. I've noticed it. We don't get to "haze" anybody.

Hmmm - 'haze'ing people? Was that part of the initiation process previously? I'm not exactly sure what you mean by 'haze'? Hassling new recruits in order to test them?

Also I'm curious about this:

Too many lodges are operating on shoe-string budgets, and they can't afford to be too picky on who they put through, because they might go bankrupt without new members.

Do all members pay dues to the lodges? If so - how much? Or does everybody contribute how much they wish?

Originally posted by SecretSky

Hmmm - 'haze'ing people? Was that part of the initiation process previously? I'm not exactly sure what you mean by 'haze'? Hassling new recruits in order to test them?

Hazing is usually defined as subjecting candidates to humiliating or degrading ordeals during the process of initiation into some group. It is common in college fraternities and sororities.

Hazing has never been a factor in Masonic ritual, but several Masonic-related appendant bodies have initiation ceremonies based on hazing, most notably the Shriners and Tall Cedars of Lebanon.

Originally posted by getreadyalready

Also, we used to blackball people, just to see if they would reapply, and see how bad they wanted in. These days, that would never happen, people lose interest too fast, and they would just move along to something else. Nobody puts much effort into anything these days. If it is hard, they just quit and find something else.

But that has always seperated the boys from the men.

I know a lot of people who never go past EA because they lose interest much too quickly. Its their loss.

Originally posted by SecretSky
OK, I have another question - just out of curiosity again.

Lessons are taught and learned via ceremony, and presumably some form of moral tale to go with it.
Is the tale taught as fact? Or is it open to interpretation? (Story and tale sound somehow patronizing, but I can't find a better word!)

I'm curious - as there seems to be a lot of mentioning of the journey/experience being more important than the final moment of obtaining the knowledge.

First off, thanks again for such a nice thread. This have been enjoyable.
Second,
This is a great question since it's answer will explain a large part of masonry. Each degree is preformed the same way it has been done for hundreds of years. Word for word, step for step. Yet, each person who walks in those steps might get a different meaning out of what he is taught. At the end of the degree, a lecture is given to explain the things in the degree, but interpretation is still left up to the individual. The Square and Compass have a very distinct masonic meaning, but the individual may chose to associate it with other things based on his life experiences. The lessons come directly from the Bible and are nothing that a good person doesn't already know, but they are taught in a way that reminds you in everyday life how to use those lessons to live a better life. The more active you are in masonry, the more you retain and the more the lessons can be referred to.

We would love to have everyone know what we teach, people just have to ask.

Originally posted by kingstonp
reply to post by mkkkay

 

I'm lost. What are you saying, or asking?

Just saying that we live in a scociety, but not in the freemason scociety.
Then my question is what is the name of our scociety.

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by SecretSky

Hmmm - 'haze'ing people? Was that part of the initiation process previously? I'm not exactly sure what you mean by 'haze'? Hassling new recruits in order to test them?

Hazing is usually defined as subjecting candidates to humiliating or degrading ordeals during the process of initiation into some group. It is common in college fraternities and sororities.

Hazing has never been a factor in Masonic ritual, but several Masonic-related appendant bodies have initiation ceremonies based on hazing, most notably the Shriners and Tall Cedars of Lebanon.

ML is right, and my use of the term "haze" was a little sarcastic. We do take the initiations seriously.

However, we have a requirement of "sound mind and body" and we are not supposed to initiate "old men in their dotage," among other things. I have personally seen people put through initiation with oxygen canisters, and helpers to get them into their seats. We do not take ourselves as seriously as we used to, and the quality of our fraternity as suffered for it, and those decisions were economic ones, nothing more.

ETA:
There are a lot of differences from state to state. Here in Florida/Georgia things are a lot different than Yankee land and/or California. My brother just demitted from Florida to Missouri, and his new lodge can't believe that Florida has "open books" where everything is written down! (I can't believe it myself, but it is true.) While at the same time Florida Masons can't believe that Missouri recognizes Prince Hall Lodges. (I think we should all recognize them.) Masonry is not exactly the same thing from state to state or country to country, but all in all, I think the basic tenets are intact.

If you masons wanted to become better fathers and better men you would be spending more time with your families! Not with you're fellow brothers.

reply to post by getreadyalready


In the long run, won't this have a detrimental effect on Freemasonry? I mean - if so many below-par members are being invited, in the long run, who will want to join? Are you concerned about the future of Freemasonry?
Do the members of the lodge vote on who gets accepted and who doesn't?