The question the jewish `gods` dont like to answer!!

Originally posted by JohnPhoenix
As a Christian my church teaches that the Trinity as we understand it is a false concept and is in fact derived from many religions of the ancient world. The scriptures that deal with the Trinity are simply misquoted or taken out of context. The early Church in the bible did not have a concept of the Trinity. This concept was only created by man 300 years after the death of Jesus.

I beg to differ.

Athanasian Creed: "The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God."

It was the Aryans and Macedonians who did not believe in the Trinity, but the true Church did. Jesus Himself taught us, "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." He also taught that there is One God. How can there be one God, and yet say that there are three? The answer is the Trinity! He explicitly asks us to acknowledge all three. Why would He do that if all three were the same exact person? They're not! There are three persons, one God. A Tri-Unity, or Trinity. Would He also be praying to Himself in the Garden of Gethsemane? No, God the Father is a different person than God the Son. There is the Paraclete, who Jesus says is the one who comes after Him, who came down upon the apostles at Pentecost. Jesus says of Him, "The Advocate [parakletos], the Holy Spirit that the Father will send in My name - He will teach you everything and remind you of all that I told you" (John 14:26).Yes, it's difficult to wrap your head around, as the Trinity is not a human concept, and we will never be able to comprehend God. However, it is the most important doctrine of our faith, as it encompasses a belief in all of God.

Here are some quotes dating back to the beginning of the Church, before the Council of Trent:

1 Corinthians 13:13
"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the holy Spirit be with all of you."

Hebrews 9:14
"How much more shall the blood of Christ, who by the Holy Ghost offered Himself unspotted unto God, cleanse our conscience from dead works, to serve the living God?"

The Didache
"After the foregoing instructions, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living [running] water. . . . If you have neither, pour water three times on the head, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" (Didache 7:1 [A.D. 70]).

The Letter of Barnabas
"And further, my brethren, if the Lord [Jesus] endured to suffer for our soul, He being the Lord of all the world, to whom God said at the foundation of the world, ‘Let us make man after our image, and after our likeness,’ understand how it was that He endured to suffer at the hand of men" (Letter of Barnabas 5 [A.D. 74] emphasis added).

Hermas
"The Son of God is older than all His creation, so that He became the Father’s adviser in His creation. Therefore also He is ancient" (The Shepherd 12 [A.D. 80]).

Ignatius of Antioch
"[T]o the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God" (Letter to the Ephesians 1 [A.D. 110]).

"For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit" (ibid., 18:2).

Justin Martyr
"We will prove that we worship him reasonably; for we have learned that he is the Son of the true God Himself, that He holds a second place, and the Spirit of prophecy a third. For this they accuse us of madness, saying that we attribute to a crucified man a place second to the unchangeable and eternal God, the Creator of all things; but they are ignorant of the mystery which lies therein" (First Apology 13:5–6 [A.D. 151]).

Polycarp of Smyrna
"I praise You for all things, I bless You, I glorify You, along with the everlasting and heavenly Jesus Christ, Your beloved Son, with whom, to You and the Holy Spirit, be glory both now and to all coming ages. Amen" (Martyrdom of Polycarp 14 [A.D. 155]).

Mathetes
"[The Father] sent the Word that He might be manifested to the world. . . . This is He Who was from the beginning, who appeared as if new, and was found old. . . . This is He who, being from everlasting, is today called the Son" (Letter to Diognetus 11 [A.D. 160]).

Athenagoras
The Son of God is the Word of the Father in thought and actuality. By Him and through Him all things were made, the Father and the Son being one. Since the Son is in the Father and the Father is in the Son by the unity and power of the Spirit, the Mind and Word of the Father is the Son of God. And if, in your exceedingly great wisdom, it occurs to you to inquire what is meant by "the Son," I will tell you briefly: He is the first-begotten of the Father, not as having been produced, for from the beginning God had the Word in Himself, God being eternal mind and eternally rational, but as coming forth to be the model and energizing force of all material things. (Plea for the Christians 10:2–4 [A.D. 177])

Theophilus of Antioch
"It is the attribute of God, of the most high and almighty and of the living God, not only to be everywhere, but also to see and hear all; for he can in no way be contained in a place. . . . The three days before the luminaries were created are types of the Trinity: God, His Word, and His Wisdom" (To Autolycus 2:15 [A.D. 181]).

Irenaeus
"For the Church, although dispersed throughout the whole world even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and from their disciples the faith in one God, the Father Almighty . . . and in one Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became flesh for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit" (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).

Tertullian
"We do indeed believe that there is only one God, but we believe that under this dispensation, or, as we say, oikonomia, there is also a Son of this one only God, his Word, who proceeded from him and through whom all things were made and without whom nothing was made. . . . We believe He was sent down by the Father, in accord with His own promise, the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete, the sanctifier of the faith of those who believe in the Father and the Son, and in the Holy Spirit. . . . This rule of faith has been present since the beginning of the gospel, before even the earlier heretics" (Against Praxeas 2 [A.D. 216]).

"And at the same time the mystery of the oikonomia is safeguarded, for the unity is distributed in a Trinity. Placed in order, the three are the Father, Son, and Spirit. They are three, however, not in condition, but in degree; not in being, but in form; not in power, but in kind; of one being, however, and one condition and one power, because He is one God of whom degrees and forms and kinds are taken into account in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" (ibid.).

"Keep always in mind the rule of faith which I profess and by which I bear witness that the Father and the Son and the Spirit are inseparable from each other, and then you will understand what is meant by it. Observe now that I say the Father is other [distinct], the Son is other, and the Spirit is other. This statement is wrongly understood by every uneducated or perversely disposed individual, as if it meant diversity and implied by that diversity a separation of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" (ibid., 9).

"Thus the connection of the Father in the Son, and of the Son in the Paraclete, produces three coherent persons, who are yet distinct one from another. These three are, one essence, not one person, as it is said, ‘I and my Father are one’ [John 10:30], in respect of unity of being not singularity of number" (ibid., 25).

Origen
"For we do not hold that which the heretics imagine: that some part of the being of God was converted into the Son, or that the Son was procreated by the Father from non-existent substances, that is, from a being outside himself, so that there was a time when he [the Son] did not exist" (The Fundamental Doctrines 4:4:1 [A.D. 225]).

"No, rejecting every suggestion of corporeality, we hold that the Word and the Wisdom was begotten out of the invisible and incorporeal God, without anything corporal being acted upon . . . the expression which we employ, however that there was never a time when he did not exist is to be taken with a certain allowance. For these very words ‘when’ and ‘never’ are terms of temporal significance, while whatever is said of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, is to be understood as transcending all time, all ages" (ibid.).

"For it is the Trinity alone which exceeds every sense in which not only temporal but even eternal may be understood. It is all other things, indeed, which are outside the Trinity, which are to be measured by time and ages" (ibid.).

Hippolytus
"The Word alone of this God is from God Himself, wherefore also the Word is God, being the being of God. Now the world was made from nothing, wherefore it is not God" (Refutation of All Heresies 10:29 [A.D. 228]).

Novatian
"For Scripture as much announces Christ as also God, as it announces God Himself as man. It has as much described Jesus Christ to be man, as moreover it has also described Christ the Lord to be God. Because it does not set forth Him to be the Son of God only, but also the son of man; nor does it only say, the son of man, but it has also been accustomed to speak of Him as the Son of God. So that being of both, He is both, lest if He should be one only, He could not be the other. For as nature itself has prescribed that He must be believed to be a man who is of man, so the same nature prescribes also that He must be believed to be God who is of God. . . . Let them, therefore, who read that Jesus Christ the son of man is man, read also that this same Jesus is called also God and the Son of God" (Treatise on the Trinity 11 [A.D. 235]).

Pope Dionysius
"Next, then, I may properly turn to those who divide and cut apart and destroy the most sacred proclamation of the Church of God, making of it [the Trinity], as it were, three powers, distinct substances, and three godheads. . . . [Some heretics] proclaim that there are in some way three gods, when they divide the sacred unity into three substances foreign to each other and completely separate" (Letter to Dionysius of Alexandria 1 [A.D. 262]).

"Therefore, the divine Trinity must be gathered up and brought together in one, a summit, as it were, I mean the omnipotent God of the universe. . . . It is blasphemy, then, and not a common one but the worst, to say that the Son is in any way a handiwork [creature]. . . . But if the Son came into being [was created], there was a time when these attributes did not exist; and, consequently, there was a time when God was without them, which is utterly absurd" (ibid., 1–2).

"Neither, then, may we divide into three godheads the wonderful and divine unity. . . . Rather, we must believe in God, the Father Almighty; and in Christ Jesus, his Son; and in the Holy Spirit; and that the Word is united to the God of the universe. ‘For,’ He says, ‘The Father and I are one,’ and ‘I am in the Father, and the Father in me’" (ibid., 3).

Gregory the Wonderworker
"There is one God. . . . There is a perfect Trinity, in glory and eternity and sovereignty, neither divided nor estranged. Wherefore there is nothing either created or in servitude in the Trinity; nor anything superinduced, as if at some former period it was non-existent, and at some later period it was introduced. And thus neither was the Son ever wanting to the Father, nor the Spirit to the Son; but without variation and without change, the same Trinity abides ever" (Declaration of Faith [A.D. 265]).

reply to post by MoonChild02

I beg to differ.

Not to mention over 700 times in the OLD Testament the Hebrew name for God is "Elohim". Which is a plural noun. But what's pertinent is that it's always used as a singular. That's how the Hebrews make a noun plural, adding the "im" ending. Example:

Singular: Cherub
Plural: Cherubim

If you look at the baptism of Christ all three members of the Trinity are present, the Son, the Father's voice from heaven, and the Holy Spirit "descending as a dove".

Mr. Phoenix, I'd personally leave that church immediately.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Alright first off....

Right in the text of Revelation. Jesus tells John to write the 7 angels of the church for Him, then dictates a letter to each of them. No different than if a person dictates a letter to their secretary to send out for them.

This is impossible because John of patmos never met jesus....so he could not have dictated anything to him....not to mention he wrote revelations in a cave...by himself as far as i've read.

Then why do you make comments like Jesus said not to judge? Jesus didn't say that, He said not to judge on mere appearance, but to make "righteous judgments".

As i've explained to you before....you should not judge nor should any man... Jesus could judge rightiously because he was without sin...."let him who is without sin cast the first stone"

You nor any man living today is rightious... thus you should judge no one.

reply to post by Akragon

but you can distinguish between what was said about him or what was written about him from the rest of the bible because as i've said the words that he spoke are all truth.

Okay lets assume that what Jesus spoke was truth. Here are some direct quotations of OT Scripture Jesus referred to.
Matthew
1. Defeat the enemy (Matt.4:4, 7, 10).
2. Rightly interpret the Law (5; 15:4, 8-9; 22:32).
3. Explain the purpose of His coming (9:13; 10:36).
4. Explain the ministry of John the Baptist (11:10).
5. Explain God's requirements (12:7).
6. Explain the response of some people who heard Him (13:14-15).
7. Explain particular points He was making (18:16; 19:4-5; 21:42; 23:39).
8. In answer to questions asked Him (19:18-19; 22:37, 39).
9. Show an OT Scripture that needs to be fulfilled (21:5; 26:31).
10. Remind evil-doers what the prophets say (21:16).
11. Ask others a question (22:44).
12. Remind people of unfulfilled prophecies (24:15; 24:29).
13. Express His emotions on the cross (27:47).

Indirect References

1) Jesus mentioned OT characters:

* Moses (Matt.19:8).
* David (22:43).
* Abel (23:35).
* Zechariah (23:35).
* Daniel (24:15).
* Noah (24:37).

2) Jesus used the words 'the Law & the prophets' to explain a point he was making about the 'Greatest Commandment' (22:40).

3) Jesus used the words 'the Scriptures' to explain a point while He was being arrested (26:54).

4) Jesus used the words 'the Law' during the Sermon on the Mount (5:17-20).

5) Jesus mentioned OT place names:

* Gomorrah (10:15).
* Sodom (10:15; 11:23-24).

Mark

1. Explain the response of some people who heard him (Mark 4:12).
2. Remind people of OT Prophecies (7:6-7).
3. Explain a point He was making (7:10-11; 9:48; 10:6, 8; 12:10-11).
4. In answer to a question (10:19; 12:29-31).
5. Remind evil-doers what the Prophets say (11:17).
6. Rightly interpret the Law (12:26).
7. Ask others a question (12:36).
8. Remind the people of unfulfilled prophecies (13:14 & 24).
9. Show an OT Scripture that needs to be, or will be, fulfilled (14:27).
10. Express His emotions on the cross (15:34).


Indirect References

1) Jesus mentioned OT characters:

* Moses (1:44).
* David (2:25).
* Abiathar (2:26).
* Elijah (9:12-13).

Luke
1. 1) Defeat the enemy (Luke 4:4; 8:12).
2. Explain the fulfilment of a prophecy concerning His coming (4:18-19).
3. Explain the ministry of John the Baptist (7:27).
4. Explain the response of some people who heard Him (8:10).
5. Explain a point He was making (13:35; 20:17).
6. In answer to a question asked Him (18:20).
7. Remind evil-doers what the prophets say (19:46).
8. Show an OT Scripture that needs to be fulfilled (21:5; 26:31).
9. Rightly interpret the Law (20:37).
10. Ask others a question (20:42-43).
11. Remind people of unfulfilled prophecies (23:30).


Indirect References

1) Jesus mentioned OT characters:

* Elijah (4:25).
* Widow in Zarephath (4:26).
* Elisha (4:27).
* Naaman (4:27).
* Moses (5:40).
* David (6:3).
* Jonah (11:29-30).
* Lot (17:28).
* Queen of Sheba (11:31).
* Solomon (11:31).
* Abel (11:51).
* Zechariah (11:51).
* Abraham (13:16).
* Isaac (13:28).
* Jacob (13:28).
* Noah (17:26).

2) Jesus used the words 'the Law' when asked about eterrnal life (10:26).

3) Jesus used the words 'the Law & the Prophets' when giving additional teaching and talking to the disciples on the road to Emmaus (16:16-18; 24:27).

4) Jesus mentioned an OT place name - Sodom (10:12; 17:29).

5) Jesus mentioned an OT book - Psalms (20:22; 24:44).


Point being made is if you believe Jesus' words to be true (your own words) you must believe other books in the bible that Jesus referenced. You cant have it both ways. You ether believe what Jesus had said to be truth, thus believing all the bible referenced, or not.

source www.biblicalstudies.org.uk...

reply to post by Theophorus

Point being made is if you believe Jesus' words to be true (your own words) you must believe other books in the bible that Jesus referenced.

I believe every word the man spoke, as far as i've seen it was all truth... Now just because he was referenced in other books doesn't mean it was "his" words... Thus it is subject to inturpretation...

If you're talking about other writings from the old Testement he specifically spoke about....i wouldn't agrue with him either way... So if his words told you that a book he referenced was true...it was.

As i've said my friend he spoke nothing but truth...

reply to post by Akragon


Okay then. If you are going to lay down and give me your belly,(Good Boy!) (oh, your a cat.lol) than I will have no choice but to pet you.Although I like being right, Please don't agree just to appease me.
theo-

Originally posted by Theophorus
reply to post by Akragon

 

Okay then. If you are going to lay down and give me your belly,(Good Boy!) (oh, your a cat.lol) than I will have no choice but to pet you.Although I like being right, Please don't agree just to appease me.

theo-

Hahaha, i lay down for no one my friend, but if this was what you were trying to point out to me with all those references...Yes as i've said....i wouldn't argue with a single word Chirst said...

reply to post by Akragon


No, I was trying to point out that If you believe Jesus, or the man who wrote about Jesus, Than you should believe where Jesus drew his conclusions from.

The Old Testament was the source in which Jesus based his teachings. Jesus derived his truth from truth, which was the Old testament.The book you say is a "story book" fairy tail.

Its seems obvious to me that you are pretty much uneducated in Bibliology .Maybe one day Ill try you in the NT. Until then, Peace- Theo

Originally posted by Theophorus
reply to post by Akragon

 

No, I was trying to point out that If you believe Jesus, or the man who wrote about Jesus, Than you should believe where Jesus drew his conclusions from.

The Old Testament was the source in which Jesus based his teachings. Jesus derived his truth from truth, which was the Old testament.The book you say is a "story book" fairy tail.

Its seems obvious to me that you are pretty much uneducated in Bibliology .Maybe one day Ill try you in the NT. Until then, Peace- Theo

edit on 28-3-2011 by Theophorus because: (no reason given)

haha....think whatever you like of me my friend, i could care less...

Considering jesus disappeared for 17 some odd years, and theres writings about one that might have been Jesus in Tibet... hmm i think it was Tibet.

Heres the link...anyways...
reluctant-messenger.com...

Also considering Jesus did not teach the OT he preached two commandments...

As for my knowledge of the book, test me all you want....i welcome the challenge.

You know nothing of me my friend so who are you to assume what i understand

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

This is impossible because John of patmos never met jesus....so he could not have dictated anything to him....not to mention he wrote revelations in a cave...by himself as far as i've read.

"John of Patmos" is the apostle John, the same apostle who wrote the Gospel of John, 1,2, and 3rd John. Secondly, "Patmos" was a Roman prison Island, John was imprisoned there under the rule of Emperor Domitian. John penned the book in 95 A.D. from that island, and when released in 96 AD after the death of Domitian, John returned to his churches he was the pastor of in Asia Minor where he died a few years later.

As i've explained to you before....

No one is saying you didn't discuss this matter earlier with me. You were wrong then as you are yet still.

you should not judge nor should any man... Jesus could judge rightiously because he was without sin...."let him who is without sin cast the first stone"

You nor any man living today is rightious... thus you should judge no one.

First off, I am righteous in the sight of God not by anything I have personally done, but by the imputed righteousness of Christ which He promised to all who received Him. Secondly, Jesus Christ is righteous, also Jesus is the Word of God made flesh. SO when a person judges they do not do so by what they see alone (appearance), but instead let the Word of God make the judgments. Jesus is the Word made flesh. (John 1:1-4)

Example: The Word says homosexuality is an abomination unto God. If I see someone who says they are a homosexual and I tell them that the Word states homosexuality is an abomination unto God it's the Word who is saying it's an abomination, not myself. I don't have more authority than the Word. The Word is the final authority.

Jesus never said to never judge anyone... Jesus said not to judge on appearance alone, but to make "righteous judgments."

reply to post by Akragon

Also considering Jesus did not teach the OT he preached two commandments..

How can I have an intelligent conversation with someone regarding reading comprehension when that someone can not even comprehend what I wrote three posts ago. Jesus derived all his teachings from the OT.

reply to post by Akragon

I believe every word the man spoke, as far as i've seen it was all truth... Now just because he was referenced in other books doesn't mean it was "his" words... Thus it is subject to inturpretation...

Ridiculous. Jesus and His Spirit are the author of the scriptures. Jesus is the Word of God who became flesh and blood. Jesus is the Word of God who took upon Himself humanity and entered human history as a man from Nazareth.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

John 1:1-14

Originally posted by Theophorus
reply to post by Akragon

 

Also considering Jesus did not teach the OT he preached two commandments..

How can I have an intelligent conversation with someone regarding reading comprehension when that someone can not even comprehend what I wrote three posts ago. Jesus derived all his teachings from the OT.

LOL, welcome to Akragon.

Someone spoken of specifically by Peter when he wrote 2 Peter 3:15-16.

Originally posted by Theophorus
reply to post by Akragon

 

Also considering Jesus did not teach the OT he preached two commandments..

How can I have an intelligent conversation with someone regarding reading comprehension when that someone can not even comprehend what I wrote three posts ago. Jesus derived all his teachings from the OT.

You can start by not assuming you know something i don't...

8For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

13In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Ridiculous. Jesus and His Spirit are the author of the scriptures....

Alright then....believe what you want

reply to post by Akragon

Also considering Jesus did not teach the OT he preached two commandments...

Jesus taught every Sabbath in the Temple and Synagogues. Jesus's own words:

"Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing." John 18:20

What do you think Jesus was teaching when He was teaching in the Temple and Synagogue? The NT wasn't written yet.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by Theophorus
reply to post by Akragon

 

Also considering Jesus did not teach the OT he preached two commandments..

How can I have an intelligent conversation with someone regarding reading comprehension when that someone can not even comprehend what I wrote three posts ago. Jesus derived all his teachings from the OT.

LOL, welcome to Akragon.

Someone spoken of specifically by Peter when he wrote 2 Peter 3:15-16.

Again don't assume you know me...you don't...

15And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

lol... again believe what you want my friend i care not...

If thats me, this must be you...

11Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Ridiculous. Jesus and His Spirit are the author of the scriptures....

Alright then....believe what you want

It says so in the text of John which I linked. The same John which you read the sayings of Jesus in. The same John who was Jesus's "beloved" apostle.

Can't you for once show a moment of integrity and admit you might be mistaken?

reply to post by Akragon


Im sorry, But you have just totally lost me.Nice talking to you though.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Its no use. Akragon isnt here to learn. Hes just here to solicit his own ideological view.

reply to post by Akragon

If thats me, this must be you...

I have never spoken "evil" of you nor have I ever wished you harm. Stop lying, or show where I have on these forums. Showing you that you are wrong isn't being "evil" to you. Would a teacher who tells a math student that his answer to 2+2 equaling 6 is incorrect be speaking "evil" to him?

However, when someone displays ignorance to the Bible and also twists it's verses to suit their own doctrine 2 Peter 3:15-16 is quite relevant. Peter says that person is "unlearned and unstable", and I agree.